Daniel 12:1

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I guess you missed this verse:

Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

It is amazing how some of us can build a doctrine out of one verse and ignore all the others...

When viewed in context, Paul in Romans 2:16 is declaring it is the Gospel he is preaching.
Paul preached Christ crucified in the passage below.


It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The word "Gospel" means "good news".

It cannot be the "good news" of Paul, but it is the "good news" Paul was sharing.

It must be the "good news" of the Savior of the world.

You are doing what Paul specifically warned against in the passage below. Is Christ divided?




1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (Paul and all the other Apostles preached the cross.)

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

. ......................................................................................................

The same Gospel was preached by all the Apostles, as was commanded by Christ...


Mar_16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Luk_9:6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

Act_8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

Act_15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

1Pe_1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

.
 
Upvote 0

Numenorian

Active Member
Nov 23, 2015
59
9
60
✟15,234.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
BABerean2, is your gospel Paul's gospel? If it is, it must originate from where Paul's did.

“Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭


“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭16:25-27‬ ‭


As well, does your gospel proceed from the apostolic burden and hope for the restoration of the natural branches?

“I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:1-5‬ ‭

“and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:26-27‬ ‭


If this is merely Paul expressing sorrow over the apostate condition of his own ethnic brethren, we could sympathize because of a relative burden for our own people. But if Paul is not simply expressing some kind of filial sorrow out of his Jewish heart, but rather, something from his office as apostle to the church, then it is a burden that is incumbent on us all.

The fulfillment of the covenantal promises with the natural branches - defeat of the last Gentile oppressor, lying down in permanent peace and safety, removal of the heart of stone, every one knowing the Lord, forgiveness of sin and iniquity, the outpoured Spirit dwelling and imparting the everlasting New Covenant righteousness - MUST take place exactly as the prophets declare it, or God IS a man, that He should lie (Num. 23:19)

“For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:25


It is one thing to be uninformed of the mystery, but to persist in ignorance makes arrogance inevitable. Take care, because if your gospel doesn't originate from the prophets and bear the prophetic and apostolic burden for the glorious restoration of the natural branches, it is a different gospel than Paul's, which was predicated on this mystery.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mindlight

See in the dark
Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
13,596
2,659
London, UK
✟816,690.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think you may be meaning the story Josephus records in his Jewish Antiquities 11:326-338, particularly 337 which states:



The problem is that this is very much not history, it is a legend which Josephus recorded at the end of the first century CE. We know this because in the story Alexander the Macedon sees the high priest radiate, he then worships the high priest as some sort of divine mediator, and then he converts to Judaism. That didn't actually happen...

Josephus writings are embellished history which do have a kernel of truth about them. That Jesus affirms Daniel as a prophet shreds the idea that the book of Daniel is post event apocalyptic genre.

Alexander may well have shown a measure of respect to locals and even to their religions as he marched through their countries if only to prevent troublesome rebellions from wrecking his broader purpose of defeating the Persians. Allenby did the same when he took Israel from the Ottomans.
 
Upvote 0

dfw69

Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age
Nov 16, 2011
8,273
826
Dallas/Ft Worth
✟78,753.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is amazing how some of us can build a doctrine out of one verse and ignore all the others...

When viewed in context, Paul in Romans 2:16 is declaring it is the Gospel he is preaching.
Paul preached Christ crucified in the passage below.


It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The word "Gospel" means "good news".

It cannot be the "good news" of Paul, but it is the "good news" Paul was sharing.

It must be the "good news" of the Savior of the world.

You are doing what Paul specifically warned against in the passage below. Is Christ divided?




1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (Paul and all the other Apostles preached the cross.)

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

. ......................................................................................................

The same Gospel was preached by all the Apostles, as was commanded by Christ...


Mar_16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Luk_9:6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

Act_8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

Act_15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

1Pe_1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

.

Amen ...the gospel or good news that Jesus fulfilled the law and has obtained the righteousness of the law and is able to give all men who simply ask for the righteousness of God.. apart from the law ...
 
Upvote 0

Aelred of Rievaulx

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2015
1,398
606
✟12,231.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Josephus writings are embellished history which do have a kernel of truth about them. That Jesus affirms Daniel as a prophet shreds the idea that the book of Daniel is post event apocalyptic genre.

Alexander may well have shown a measure of respect to locals and even to their religions as he marched through their countries if only to prevent troublesome rebellions from wrecking his broader purpose of defeating the Persians. Allenby did the same when he took Israel from the Ottomans.
So you think that kernel of truth was that a high priest showed Alexander the Great the book of Daniel and then Alexander went on to conquer Persia? The historian in me thinks that's laughable...

Jesus affirms Daniel and Daniel is vaticinium ex eventu.

From Shalom M. Paul's "The Mesopotamian Background of Daniel 1-6" (2002:55-68, p. 55)
The book of Daniel . . . authored and compiled at a very late date (with Dan 1-6 dating from the Hellenistic period and chapters 7-12 from the eve of the Macabbean revolt).
 
Upvote 0

mindlight

See in the dark
Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
13,596
2,659
London, UK
✟816,690.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So you think that kernel of truth was that a high priest showed Alexander the Great the book of Daniel

Yes or quoted from it. The priests were careful to guard their hand written scrolls. Alexander may have been met by priests or demanded to meet a delegation of them to get a feel for his new subjects. It is even possible that such a self interested young man may have been interested in prophecies that he could either use or which flattered his ego.

and then Alexander went on to conquer Persia? The historian in me thinks that's laughable...

It is an historical fact he conquered Persia. You just doubt that God said he would before He did it.

Jesus affirms Daniel and Daniel is vaticinium ex eventu.

The affirmation by Christ adds credibility to the view that Daniel predicted the course of events - yes! Jesus does not lie.
 
Upvote 0

Aelred of Rievaulx

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2015
1,398
606
✟12,231.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Yes or quoted from it. The priests were careful to guard their hand written scrolls. Alexander may have been met by priests or demanded to meet a delegation of them to get a feel for his new subjects. It is even possible that such a self interested young man may have been interested in prophecies that he could either use or which flattered his ego.

That he would have encountered Jewish priests seems likely, he probably even encountered them outside of Palestine as Judaism was at the time heavily present beyond the Euphrates.

It is an historical fact he conquered Persia. You just doubt that God said he would before He did it.

Well, I doubt that a scribe living in the sixth century would have said it. Or that this person would have concerned him or herself with Antiochus Epiphanes... It would be like someone today making weird predictions about international relations for the 25th century, and it would have made as much sense...

Plus, we know what apocalyptic literature looks like, between 200BCE and 200CE it was actually a very popular form of literature. We know that the apocalyptic texts written in this time used the ex eventu prophecy, we know they wrote pseudonymously, we know they wrote veiled attacks directed at prevalent political/religious ideologies contemporaneous to the respective authors. Is it that weird to consider that Daniel is precisely the same genre?

The affirmation by Christ adds credibility to the view that Daniel predicted the course of events - yes! Jesus does not lie.

Apocalypticists didn't lie either, they wrote in their respective genres, ex eventu was part and parcel of this.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is one thing to be uninformed of the mystery, but to persist in ignorance makes arrogance inevitable. Take care, because if your gospel doesn't originate from the prophets and bear the prophetic and apostolic burden for the glorious restoration of the natural branches, it is a different gospel than Paul's, which was predicated on this mystery.

The mystery that Paul spoke of has been revealed and the truth of it handed down to others through God's Word.

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

A remnant of Israel will be saved, based on what is found in scripture.

Paul said there is only One Gospel and warned that no other is to be preached.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:



Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.


Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.


Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I have had Jewish Christians in my home for Bible study.

My wife and I support both Jews for Jesus and Word of Messiah Ministries, because the time to take the One and only Gospel to the descendants of Jacob, is now.
We have the same burden as Paul to see his fellow Israelites grafted back into the Olive Tree.

Will you help us?
.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Thousands of Jews in Israel are coming to faith in Christ, due an announcement by the man who was the most respected Rabbi in Israel. Thousands of people attended his funeral in 2006. The president of Israel spoke at his eulogy.

Since the name of the Messiah has been revealed, there has been an effort to cover up the truth.

World STILL In Shock Over THIS! Important Interview with Carl Gallups!

.
 
Upvote 0

Numenorian

Active Member
Nov 23, 2015
59
9
60
✟15,234.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The mystery that Paul spoke of has been revealed and the truth of it handed down to others through God's Word.

In context, the mystery revealed is the partial hardening of Israel, the natural branches, the corporate entity that is distinct from the nations (Gentiles) UNTIL the latter's fulness comes in. Once this occurs, God will reveal Himself to ALL Israel and all Jews left in the earth will be saved. There are a multiplicity of scriptures in the prophets which speak to this last days miracle.


Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Don't forget that the original context of these verses is in Hosea, where God says Israel is "not My people".

“And the LORD said, "Name him Lo-ammi, for you are not My people and I am not your God." Yet the number of the sons of Israel Will be like the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered; And in the place Where it is said to them, "You are not My people," It will be said to them, " You are the sons of the living God."” Hosea‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭


They are the ones whom God has hidden His face from for the past 2000 years for smithing the Judge on the cheek. Don't assume that the Gentiles are the only "not My people".

“I will go away and return to My place Until they acknowledge their guilt and seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”
‭‭Hosea‬ ‭5:15‬ ‭

“"Now muster yourselves in troops, daughter of troops; They have laid siege against us; With a rod they will smite the judge of Israel on the cheek. "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity." Therefore He will give them up until the time When she who is in labor has borne a child. Then the remainder of His brethren Will return to the sons of Israel. And He will arise and shepherd His flock In the strength of the LORD, In the majesty of the name of the LORD His God. And they will remain, Because at that time He will be great To the ends of the earth.”
‭‭Micah‬ ‭5:1-4‬ ‭


Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

A remnant of Israel will be saved, based on what is found in scripture.

Paul says, "all Israel" while the prophet says a remnant. What gives?
The ultimate goal of the covenant is all Israel (Jer. 31:31-34, Heb. 8:8-12).

“For on My holy mountain, on the high mountain of Israel," declares the Lord GOD, "there the whole house of Israel, all of them, will serve Me in the land; there I will accept them and there I will seek your contributions and the choicest of your gifts, with all your holy things. As a soothing aroma I will accept you when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered; and I will prove Myself holy among you in the sight of the nations. And you will know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the land which I swore to give to your forefathers.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭20:40-42‬ ‭

Notice:
- God is emphatic: THERE, on the high mountains of Israel, IN THE LAND, they will serve Him, ALL OF THEM
- the result of this ultimate dealing of God, unlike any other return from exile in their history, is the revelation of the knowledge of God to them, on an international tableau, "in the sight of the nations, who themselves will acknowledge God through this event

“'Thus says the Lord G OD, "Are you the one of whom I spoke in former days through My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days for many years that I would bring you against them? It will come about on that day, when Gog comes against the land of Israel," declares the Lord G OD, "that My fury will mount up in My anger. In My zeal and in My blazing wrath I declare that on that day there will surely be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all the creeping things that creep on the earth, and all the men who are on the face of the earth will shake at My presence; the mountains also will be thrown down, the steep pathways will collapse and every wall will fall to the ground. I will call for a sword against him on all My mountains," declares the Lord G OD. "Every man's sword will be against his brother. With pestilence and with blood I will enter into judgment with him; and I will rain on him and on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, a torrential rain, with hailstones, fire and brimstone. I will magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that I am the LORD."'”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭38:17-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

These results have never been seen before. While it is very true that in previous exiles, only a remnant returned, God is not satisfied with only a remnant because it doesn't meet His covenanted promises TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOUSE OF JUDAH. To insert the Church into this scripture is quintessential replacement methodology:

“"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."” Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-34‬ ‭

‬‬Having said that, there are not two separate tracks to salvation, one for Israel and one for the Church. All must believe the gospel, because without faith in the finished work of Christ, there is no inheritance, physical or spiritual.


“But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:23-24

There is only one gospel, as you note but let it be the gospel Paul preached, rooted in the Law and the prophets, in the context of the everlasting covenant, which includes the Abrahamic, Davidic, Mosaic, and the New Covenant in the blood of the Lamb. Let it be the gospel that encompasses the resolution of the antagonism between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent in the climax of the mystery of godliness and the mystery of iniquity, the former having already been revealed in Jesus.

Let it be the gospel that honours the election of God -who chooses men before they are born and have done nothing good or bad - His sovereign prerogative to choose a man or nation gratuitously, which is the essence of grace. Grace and election are synonymous in that they share this essential feature.

This is why grace scandalizes; it offends our egalitarian sensibilities, our human sense of justice. "Israel doesn't merit/deserve the land!" I hear people saying today. But who ever DESERVES anything but hell from God?

This issue is at the nexus of the controversy of Israel - the land and the people - today, and there you will find the powers of the air centrally focussed, because when Israel lies down in peace and safety, with no one making her afraid, it will be the end of their rule over this earth, in spirit AND truth, in reality on the earthly plane, and not only on he heavenly.

Finally, let it be the gospel that the Gentiles humbly receive, as pure mercy, knowing that God owes us nothing, we who were strangers to the covenants of promise:

“For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers, and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written, "THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES, AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME."”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭15:8-9‬

Note that Christ came to CONFIRM OR RATIFY the covenantal promises to the JEWISH fathers, NOT REPLACE or FULFILL (a euphemism for replace) them. Also, note that Christ served the Gentiles by opening a door of pure mercy, for God had made no covenants with them.



Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:



Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.


Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.


Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul was absolutely adamant against the heresy creeping into the Galstian church through the Judaizing teachers, who are still with us today, reviving this subtle teaching. But don't make the mistake of equating the full-orbed Pauline gospel that I have described above, which has as its purview and context, ALL that the Law and the prophets said, and which fundamentally establishes the gospel ground of the righteousness of God APART FROM THE LAW (Rom. 3:21-26) with the Galatian heresy that subtly seduced the Galatians into a works-based righteousness.

Works-based righteousness is not the province of Jews. Religious people the world over, and including church-goers, traffic in it.


I have had Jewish Christians in my home for Bible study.

My wife and I support both Jews for Jesus and Word of Messiah Ministries, because the time to take the One and only Gospel to the descendants of Jacob, is now.
We have the same burden as Paul to see his fellow Israelites grafted back into the Olive Tree.

Will you help us?

This is commendable. I am glad you are supporting the preachers of the gospel to Israel. Some ministries out of the West out their ministerial emphasis on supporting Israel "relationally", and tend to major in the material, for which there is a biblical mandate (Rom. 15:26-27), but the gospel seems to get downplayed to the point where I have wondered if they believe in a dual covenant theology, which is, of course, heresy.

My wife and I have a burden to see the context restored to the church that the early church possessed, both of the gospel of the kingdom, and of the eschatology of the everlasting covenant. This apocalyptic proclamation, under the anointing of the Spirit, gave a power and cogency to their message which generally speaking, has not yet been reclaimed since across the whole Body of Christ.

We firmly believe that one of the greatest stumbling blocks to Jewish evangelism is replacement theology, and its pervasive sister,"fulfillment" theology, which asserts that the covenants are all fulfilled in Christ, which necessarily indicates to any Jew that any physical land promises are null and void, and their physical lineage is irrelevant to God. They will never accept a gospel predicated on these unbiblical interpretations and assumptions.

We also see the role of the church if the last days to be a corporate Daniel, Ezekiel, or Jeremiah to Israel in the pending time of her great distress, physically, offering shelter and sustenance in a hate-filled world bent on her destruction, and spiritually, to give context and understanding to her from her own prophets (not least of which is Moses), and most profoundly to speak a word of hope:

“Encourage the exhausted, and strengthen the feeble. Say to those with anxious heart, "Take courage, fear not. Behold, your God will come with vengeance; The recompense of God will come, But He will save you." Then the eyes of the blind will be opened And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. Then the lame will leap like a deer, And the tongue of the mute will shout for joy. For waters will break forth in the wilderness And streams in the Arabah.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭35:3-6‬ ‭

Israel has a Divine appointment with us in those wilderness places, as they are sifted through the nations:

“"As I live," declares the Lord G OD, "surely with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out, I shall be king over you. I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face. As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you," declares the Lord G OD. "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant;”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭20:33-37‬ ‭


So, how can I help you?
.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The first thing we must do is face the reality of what scripture says instead of what we would like for it to say.
Many have changed the word "so" in Romans 11:26 into the word "then" in an attempt to produce a future "national salvation" for the nation of Israel. This turns Paul into a schizophrenic.
He cannot say all of the Israelites will be saved in Romans 11 after he just said in Romans 9 that they would not all be saved.



Which Israel? Israel of the Flesh and Israel of the Promise



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

(The promise was made to only one seed, Christ.)

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(Being in-Christ is not dependant on one’s bloodline. You are adopted through Christ.)

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

(Read Romans 9:8 to find out who the “children of God” are.)

………………………………...................

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

(God does not judge by one’s bloodline.)

Rom 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(All of Jacob's descendants are not included in Israel of the Promise.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

(Being a descendant of Jacob does not make one a child of God.)
..........................................................

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
(The New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant.)

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

(He took away the Sinia Covenant to establish the New Covenant.)


Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(There is no need for renewed animal sacrifices. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. He was God‘s one and only son.)

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
(We are looking for the New Jerusalem, which is now above based on Gal. chapter 4.)

..............................................................
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
(Faith in Christ replaces the Law.)

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(This is the only way of salvation, since the Cross. The blood of bulls and goats is now useless.)

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

(God is no longer a respecter of persons based on bloodline.)

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(Paul was an Israelite who was not cast away, because of his faith in Christ.)

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(During Paul's time there was a remnant of Jacob's descendants, who believed in Christ.)

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
(Salvation has always been by faith. No one but Christ has ever kept the Law. Nobody in the Old Testament was saved by keeping the Law. They were saved by Faith.)

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
(Those broken off, has to be a reference to the unbelieving Israelites.)

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

(They can only be grafted back in, through faith in Christ.)

Rom 11:26 And “so” all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


("so" is an adverb of manner indicated by the Greek. It is not an adverb of time.)

(Many modern Bible scholars have changed the word “so” to the word “then” which completely changes the intended meaning of the verse.)

G3779
οὕτωhoutō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

This could also be written, “And in this manner all Israel shall be saved…” which refers back to verse 23. They can be grafted back in through Faith in Christ. Many people say this means all of the descendants of Jacob will be saved at some future point in time. However, multiple verses in Romans 9, 10 and 11 say the opposite. This has been clearly demonstrated by the words of the Apostle Paul.

One verse cannot change all of the other verses that come before it.

………………………………..........................................................



Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

(This is the New Covenant found in Jer. 31:31-34, Matt. 26:28 , Gal. 3:16, and Heb. 7:12, 8:6-13. It is now in effect, based on Heb. 8:6.)



Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

(Paul started Romans chapter 11 with two groups of Israelites, those who bowed to Baal and the remnant who would not. In this verse we also have two groups. There were those blinded to who was the Messiah and were broken off of the Olive Tree and there was the “election” who accepted Jesus and remained in the Olive Tree. The Gentiles were grafted in among the election of Israelites. )



Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph_2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(God is no longer a respecter of persons. Christ has broken down the wall of separation between all peoples.)


The descendants of Jacob can only be grafted back into faithful Israel by faith in Christ. This is the "so", manner of their salvation.

The Church is not a parenthesis in God's plan. The Church is the Plan.

If we truly love the Jewish people we must tell them the truth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dfw69
Upvote 0

dfw69

Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age
Nov 16, 2011
8,273
826
Dallas/Ft Worth
✟78,753.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The first thing we must do is face the reality of what scripture says instead of what we would like for it to say.
Many have changed the word "so" in Romans 11:26 into the word "then" in an attempt to produce a future "national salvation" for the nation of Israel. This turns Paul into a schizophrenic.
He cannot say all of the Israelites will be saved in Romans 11 after he just said in Romans 9 that they would not all be saved.



Which Israel? Israel of the Flesh and Israel of the Promise



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

(The promise was made to only one seed, Christ.)

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(Being in-Christ is not dependant on one’s bloodline. You are adopted through Christ.)

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

(Read Romans 9:8 to find out who the “children of God” are.)

………………………………...................

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

(God does not judge by one’s bloodline.)

Rom 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(All of Jacob's descendants are not included in Israel of the Promise.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

(Being a descendant of Jacob does not make one a child of God.)
..........................................................

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
(The New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant.)

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

(He took away the Sinia Covenant to establish the New Covenant.)


Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(There is no need for renewed animal sacrifices. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. He was God‘s one and only son.)

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
(We are looking for the New Jerusalem, which is now above based on Gal. chapter 4.)

..............................................................
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
(Faith in Christ replaces the Law.)

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(This is the only way of salvation, since the Cross. The blood of bulls and goats is now useless.)

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

(God is no longer a respecter of persons based on bloodline.)

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(Paul was an Israelite who was not cast away, because of his faith in Christ.)

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(During Paul's time there was a remnant of Jacob's descendants, who believed in Christ.)

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
(Salvation has always been by faith. No one but Christ has ever kept the Law. Nobody in the Old Testament was saved by keeping the Law. They were saved by Faith.)

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
(Those broken off, has to be a reference to the unbelieving Israelites.)

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

(They can only be grafted back in, through faith in Christ.)

Rom 11:26 And “so” all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


("so" is an adverb of manner indicated by the Greek. It is not an adverb of time.)

(Many modern Bible scholars have changed the word “so” to the word “then” which completely changes the intended meaning of the verse.)

G3779
οὕτωhoutō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

This could also be written, “And in this manner all Israel shall be saved…” which refers back to verse 23. They can be grafted back in through Faith in Christ. Many people say this means all of the descendants of Jacob will be saved at some future point in time. However, multiple verses in Romans 9, 10 and 11 say the opposite. This has been clearly demonstrated by the words of the Apostle Paul.

One verse cannot change all of the other verses that come before it.

………………………………..........................................................



Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

(This is the New Covenant found in Jer. 31:31-34, Matt. 26:28 , Gal. 3:16, and Heb. 7:12, 8:6-13. It is now in effect, based on Heb. 8:6.)



Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

(Paul started Romans chapter 11 with two groups of Israelites, those who bowed to Baal and the remnant who would not. In this verse we also have two groups. There were those blinded to who was the Messiah and were broken off of the Olive Tree and there was the “election” who accepted Jesus and remained in the Olive Tree. The Gentiles were grafted in among the election of Israelites. )



Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph_2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(God is no longer a respecter of persons. Christ has broken down the wall of separation between all peoples.)


The descendants of Jacob can only be grafted back into faithful Israel by faith in Christ. This is the "so", manner of their salvation.

The Church is not a parenthesis in God's plan. The Church is the Plan.

If we truly love the Jewish people we must tell them the truth.


The world must be careful ...scripture such as these can be used against the bloodline of Israel by a false messiah who may come and say those who will not submit to the gospel must be killed....and the nation's could be fooled that the messiah has come and will seek to destroy Israel ...

Just saying ....
 
Upvote 0

Numenorian

Active Member
Nov 23, 2015
59
9
60
✟15,234.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The first thing we must do is face the reality of what scripture says instead of what we would like for it to say.
Many have changed the word "so" in Romans 11:26 into the word "then" in an attempt to produce a future "national salvation" for the nation of Israel. This turns Paul into a schizophrenic.
He cannot say all of the Israelites will be saved in Romans 11 after he just said in Romans 9 that they would not all be saved.


In Romans 9, I read that they are not all children because they are Abraham's descendants; Ishmael was excluded, who was born according to the flesh, but Isaac through the promise.

From what I've written before, if you'll check the Scriptures, Israel's national salvation is not resting a merely one verse. Apart from Israel's judgment, no other theme as as amply documented in the prophets as Israel's restoration. With God, for Israel, judgment is not the final word; salvation is.

I think there is something precious to our interpretations of Scripture, and that is our presuppositions. From what I have read of what you have written, it seems that:

1. You presuppose that New Testament revelation is more authoritative than Old Testament revelation. For example, you take one verse, Gal. 3:16, to trump all Old Testament promises to the physical seed of Abraham.

2. You presuppose that heavenly realities are more important than earthly, because the spiritualization of clearly physical details is acceptable methodology. For example, you say that any outstanding land promises will be fulfilled in the heavenly Jerusalem, and that God is no respecter of physical lineage. But....

“The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever. I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭13:14-16‬

A physical land FOREVER. And God called Abraham "My friend". Do YOU deal with your friends that way, making promises that seem quite clear (north, south, east, west) and then say, "I really meant......a spiritual land?

“"Thus says the LORD, 'If you can break My covenant for the day and My covenant for the night, so that day and night will not be at their appointed time, then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant so that he will not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levitical priests, My ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be counted and the sand of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.'"”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭33:20-22‬

Uncountable DESCENDANTS as sure as day follows night.

3. You presuppose that covenant promises have been universalized so that clear and specific language is no longer in force. "This is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Israel."


Which Israel? Israel of the Flesh and Israel of the Promise?

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

(The promise was made to only one seed, Christ.)

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(Being in-Christ is not dependant on one’s bloodline. You are adopted through Christ.)

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

(Read Romans 9:8 to find out who the “children of God” are.)

………………………………...................

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

(God does not judge by one’s bloodline.)

Rom 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(All of Jacob's descendants are not included in Israel of the Promise.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

(Being a descendant of Jacob does not make one a child of God.)
..........................................................

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
(The New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant.)

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

(He took away the Sinia Covenant to establish the New Covenant.)


Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(There is no need for renewed animal sacrifices. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. He was God‘s one and only son.)

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
(We are looking for the New Jerusalem, which is now above based on Gal. chapter 4.)

..............................................................
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
(Faith in Christ replaces the Law.)

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(This is the only way of salvation, since the Cross. The blood of bulls and goats is now useless.)

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

(God is no longer a respecter of persons based on bloodline.)

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(Paul was an Israelite who was not cast away, because of his faith in Christ.)

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(During Paul's time there was a remnant of Jacob's descendants, who believed in Christ.)

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
(Salvation has always been by faith. No one but Christ has ever kept the Law. Nobody in the Old Testament was saved by keeping the Law. They were saved by Faith.)

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
(Those broken off, has to be a reference to the unbelieving Israelites.)

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

(They can only be grafted back in, through faith in Christ.)

Rom 11:26 And “so” all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


("so" is an adverb of manner indicated by the Greek. It is not an adverb of time.)

(Many modern Bible scholars have changed the word “so” to the word “then” which completely changes the intended meaning of the verse.)

G3779
οὕτωhoutō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

This could also be written, “And in this manner all Israel shall be saved…” which refers back to verse 23. They can be grafted back in through Faith in Christ. Many people say this means all of the descendants of Jacob will be saved at some future point in time. However, multiple verses in Romans 9, 10 and 11 say the opposite. This has been clearly demonstrated by the words of the Apostle Paul.

One verse cannot change all of the other verses that come before it.

………………………………..........................................................



Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

(This is the New Covenant found in Jer. 31:31-34, Matt. 26:28 , Gal. 3:16, and Heb. 7:12, 8:6-13. It is now in effect, based on Heb. 8:6.)



Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

(Paul started Romans chapter 11 with two groups of Israelites, those who bowed to Baal and the remnant who would not. In this verse we also have two groups. There were those blinded to who was the Messiah and were broken off of the Olive Tree and there was the “election” who accepted Jesus and remained in the Olive Tree. The Gentiles were grafted in among the election of Israelites. )



Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph_2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(God is no longer a respecter of persons. Christ has broken down the wall of separation between all peoples.)


The descendants of Jacob can only be grafted back into faithful Israel by faith in Christ. This is the "so", manner of their salvation.

The Church is not a parenthesis in God's plan. The Church is the Plan.

If we truly love the Jewish people we must tell them the truth.

Presuppositions must be examined, or else continued conversation is unprofitable and repetitive.

I am all for telling the Jews the truth. We believe in a looming time of Jacob's trouble, yet more than a few Messianic leaders in Israel are preterists, which means that they teach Jacob's trouble as past - "while they are saying, 'Peace and safety!", then destruction will come upon them suddenly....and they will not escape."

We believe that we have a solemn responsibility to tell Jews the truth of what is coming and why, and to lay our lives on the line to shelter them. In the years ahead, our support for them, EVEN IN THEIR UNBELIEF, will be critical for their survival and the inbreaking of the truth at the time of the Lord's choosing, the end of the times, time and half a time.

 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The world must be careful ...scripture such as these can be used against the bloodline of Israel by a false messiah who may come and say those who will not submit to the gospel must be killed....and the nation's could be fooled that the messiah has come and will seek to destroy Israel ...

Just saying ....

The true Church has never done what you are describing.
However, in the past it has been done in the name of those who claimed to be Christians.

Sometimes scripture does not say what we want it to say, but it is the truth.
Christ is the only way of salvation. The Old Covenant is now obsolete. Hebrews 8:13
 
  • Like
Reactions: dfw69
Upvote 0

dfw69

Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age
Nov 16, 2011
8,273
826
Dallas/Ft Worth
✟78,753.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The true Church has never done what you are describing.
However, in the past it has been done in the name of those who claimed to be Christians.

Sometimes scripture does not say what we want it to say, but it is the truth.
Christ is the only way of salvation. The Old Covenant is now obsolete. Hebrews 8:13

amen bro
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Numenorian

Active Member
Nov 23, 2015
59
9
60
✟15,234.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The true Church has never done what you are describing.
However, in the past it has been done in the name of those who claimed to be Christians.

Sometimes scripture does not say what we want it to say, but it is the truth.
Christ is the only way of salvation. The Old Covenant is now obsolete. Hebrews 8:13

You need to
The world must be careful ...scripture such as these can be used against the bloodline of Israel by a false messiah who may come and say those who will not submit to the gospel must be killed....and the nation's could be fooled that the messiah has come and will seek to destroy Israel ...

Just saying ....

This is exactly right. We need to be careful of our terminology.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"From what I've written before, if you'll check the Scriptures, Israel's national salvation is not resting a merely one verse. Apart from Israel's judgment, no other theme as as amply documented in the prophets as Israel's restoration. With God, for Israel, judgment is not the final word; salvation is.

I think there is something precious to our interpretations of Scripture, and that is our presuppositions. From what I have read of what you have written, it seems that:

1. You presuppose that New Testament revelation is more authoritative than Old Testament revelation. For example, you take one verse, Gal. 3:16, to trump all Old Testament promises to the physical seed of Abraham.

It was not me who did that. It was the Apostle Paul.

2. You presuppose that heavenly realities are more important than earthly, because the spiritualization of clearly physical details is acceptable methodology. For example, you say that any outstanding land promises will be fulfilled in the heavenly Jerusalem, and that God is no respecter of physical lineage. But....

The heavenly Jerusalem is coming here. It will be just as real as anything in this rotten sin-cursed world.



“The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever. I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭13:14-16‬

A physical land FOREVER. And God called Abraham "My friend". Do YOU deal with your friends that way, making promises that seem quite clear (north, south, east, west) and then say, "I really meant......a spiritual land?"


Since this rotten, sin-cursed world does not last forever, any forever land promise must be in the New Jerusalem, because it does last forever.


Heb_11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


.


 
Upvote 0

Numenorian

Active Member
Nov 23, 2015
59
9
60
✟15,234.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The true Church has never done what you are describing.
However, in the past it has been done in the name of those who claimed to be Christians.

Sometimes scripture does not say what we want it to say, but it is the truth.
Christ is the only way of salvation. The Old Covenant is now obsolete. Hebrews 8:13

"The Old Covenant is now obsolete" needs to be defined. For that matter, what does salvation mean to you? What is the extent of biblical salvation?

What do you mean by "Old Covenant? Where it is used in Hebrews, it is referring to the Levitical administration. Do you include the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants in the Old Covenant? If the Old Covenant is obsolete, is it still binding on Israel? What does it include?
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"The Old Covenant is now obsolete" needs to be defined. For that matter, what does salvation mean to you? What is the extent of biblical salvation?

What do you mean by "Old Covenant? Where it is used in Hebrews, it is referring to the Levitical administration. Do you include the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants in the Old Covenant? If the Old Covenant is obsolete, is it still binding on Israel? What does it include?

What I think does not matter. The question is, what does the text of scripture say?

Christ is the Seed of the Everlasting New Blood Covenant.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (protoevangelium)

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (seed of Abraham)

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

..........................................................................................................

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

(from the 1599 Geneva Bible)

.....................................................................................................

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (NKJV)

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said,It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (end of temple sacrifice)


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

(The promises were made only to Christ.)

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(The law was added after the promise to Abraham.)

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(The law was added because of sin until Christ could come.)

Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. (ESV)

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(All of the promise of our inheritance comes through Christ.)


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(There is no such thing as salvation based on bloodline.)


Rom 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(The New Covenant was first made with Israelites like Paul. The Gentiles were grafted in later.)


Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
("so"= Gk "houto"= in this manner)

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(This is the New Blood Covenant of Christ, now in effect. It is not waiting on a future fulfillment.)

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (from Jeremiah chapter 31)

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(This happens when the Holy Spirit is inside of us.)

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (The Sinai Covenant is finished.)


Heb_9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb_9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

Heb_9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Heb_10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Since the Cross, salvation only comes through faith in Christ.
He is the mediator of the New Covenant, confirmed by His Blood.
It is the fulfillment of the Promise to Abraham.
Salvation does not depend on one's bloodline.

.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dfw69

Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age
Nov 16, 2011
8,273
826
Dallas/Ft Worth
✟78,753.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"The Old Covenant is now obsolete" needs to be defined. For that matter, what does salvation mean to you? What is the extent of biblical salvation?

What do you mean by "Old Covenant? Where it is used in Hebrews, it is referring to the Levitical administration. Do you include the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants in the Old Covenant? If the Old Covenant is obsolete, is it still binding on Israel? What does it include?

salvation to me means that jesus fulfilled the law for any man who will enter into the faith covenant with him to obey his words ...he is our righteousness which is a gift
 
Upvote 0