God and atonement

Steve Petersen · Nov 26, 2015

A question that continues to bother me: Why does God need to be appeased anyway? Who made the rules?

~Anastasia~ · Nov 26, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
A question that continues to bother me: Why does God need to be appeased anyway? Who made the rules?

He doesn't.

And I'm not sure. Calvin? Someone around that time? Or Augustine? Good question though. I'd like to know the answer.

ArmyMatt · Nov 26, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
A question that continues to bother me: Why does God need to be appeased anyway? Who made the rules?

He doesn't, because He has no needs. This started as speculation that really and sadly took hold in the West

CelticRebel · Nov 26, 2015

Kylissa said:
He doesn't.

And I'm not sure. Calvin? Someone around that time? Or Augustine? Good question though. I'd like to know the answer.

That is correct, as Matt mentions in the post below yours. But it wasn't Augustine, it was Anselm, 1000 years after Jesus, who proposed the Satisfaction Theory of the atonement, and then this was expanded by Calvin into PSA.

CelticRebel · Nov 26, 2015

Kylissa said:
That explain part of what you don't believe ... But what DO you believe? I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but can you state the purpose of the Incarnation and the means of salvation in positive terms - what it is, rather than what it is not?
That might help discussion? I will say this - it took several months of pretty intense study and reading to begin to really understand what Orthodoxy teaches about salvation. You find bits and pieces, but it is so rich that it is difficult to state succinctly without leaving SOMEthing out.

You're not giving me a hard time, and I promised I would answer further. I believe in the three earliest atonement views -- Ransom/Christus Victor; Recapitulation; Moral Influence. I believe the Incarnation, Atonement, and Resurrection cannot be separated in purpose or effect, like the West tries to do. They are all integral to the meaning of Jesus's life and why He came here.

I do not hold to forensic justification; my view puts me at odds with the entire West on justification and salvation, except the Anabaptists and Quakers. Thus, my view of "faith in Jesus Christ" has a different meaning than is found in the West. I believe we are saved by believing in Jesus's mission and work, but we must also follow Him in our thoughts, intents, and actions. I like the book of James and take it for what it says; I do not wish to expunge it from the scriptures as did Martin Luther.

I hope this is a start on answering your questions. After reading it, people are probably wondering why I think I cannot fit into Orthodoxy. I have already mentioned some of those reasons.

ArmyMatt · Nov 26, 2015

And I think I see a difference, we believe we are saved by participating in God's own life, not merely by following Him (and that is where the Blood comes in, as Christ says in John's Gospel)

CelticRebel · Nov 26, 2015

ArmyMatt said:
And I think I see a difference, we believe we are saved by participating in God's own life, not merely by following Him (and that is where the Blood comes in, as Christ says in John's Gospel)

I know you take that passage as referring to the "Eucharist", but I don't. I respect that belief, but I don't hold it.

ArmyMatt · Nov 27, 2015

CelticRebel said:
I know you take that passage as referring to the "Eucharist", but I don't. I respect that belief, but I don't hold it.

Yes, but not merely the Eucharist

truefiction1 · Nov 27, 2015

CelticRebel said:
I know you take that passage as referring to the "Eucharist", but I don't. I respect that belief, but I don't hold it.

Do you understand exactly why you don't hold that belief? I mean, you do know that the ability to accept and eventually understand this "hard saying" of Christ's in the way that He Truly meant it is reliant upon one's personal psychological makeup? And that is why there are generally two or three ways that people interpret that passage, and the Last Supper altogether?

Steve Petersen · Nov 27, 2015

ArmyMatt said:
He doesn't, because He has no needs. This started as speculation that really and sadly took hold in the West

Why does God require that things be atoned for?

truefiction1 · Nov 27, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
Why does God require that things be atoned for?

God doesn't require that things be atoned for. We need atonement because of the sort of creature that we are.

ArmyMatt · Nov 27, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
Why does God require that things be atoned for?

He doesn't. we might need requirements, but He doesn't

Light of the East · Nov 28, 2015

ArmyMatt said:
He doesn't. we might need requirements, but He doesn't

I'm still trying to figure all this out. Scripture uses words such as propitiation and atonement, both of which appear to have meanings which dovetail with the Western idea of legal payment for sin.

Could you help me out here?

A greater Hope · Nov 28, 2015

Lukaris said:
Christ, who is the power of God and the wisdom of God, before whom all tremble and whom all dread, and whom every tongue praiseth, verily, the priests smote, and gave him gall to drink. He consenteth to undergo all kinds of suffering, desiring to save us from our iniquities with his blood; for he is the lover of mankind.

This is a beautiful piece of literature very inspiring and true nearly made me weep.

truefiction1 · Nov 28, 2015

Light of the East said:
I'm still trying to figure all this out. Scripture uses words such as propitiation and atonement, both of which appear to have meanings which dovetail with the Western idea of legal payment for sin.

Could you help me out here?

Yes. The images used in Scripture do not define a mystery that defies all rational/cognitive aspects of the minds of creatures: the images are only metaphors that point to the "great mystery of salvation".

ArmyMatt · Nov 28, 2015

Light of the East said:
I'm still trying to figure all this out. Scripture uses words such as propitiation and atonement, both of which appear to have meanings which dovetail with the Western idea of legal payment for sin.

Could you help me out here?

well, where does Scripture actually say that it was merely a legal payment for sin as the West defines it? it ain't just the words, it's the meaning behind them

A greater Hope · Nov 28, 2015

CelticRebel said:
I just don't believe that God requires blood spilling in order to forgive sins. I don't think blood has anything to do with it. I think it is a man-made concept of the deity.

Hebrews 9-22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

truefiction1 · Nov 28, 2015

We don't "figure out" the great mystery of our salvation. We experience it in silent, reverent awe.

A greater Hope · Nov 28, 2015

CelticRebel said:
I need to reply in more detail than what I can tonight. I'll get back with you.

Luke 4-4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
You have heard the word sir now will thou believe in thy heart and live?

Light of the East · Nov 29, 2015

truefiction1 said:
Yes. The images used in Scripture do not define a mystery that defies all rational/cognitive aspects of the minds of creatures: the images are only metaphors that point to the "great mystery of salvation".

Please accept that I am not trying to be rude here, and I know that I am a visitor here, but honestly, what you just did looks like the same thing that Protestants do when they deny the Eucharist - take the plain meaning of words in a literal sense and deny that they mean what they literally mean.

So atonement really doesn't mean atonement? Okay, then kindly explain the metaphor because honestly, I can't figure out what it could stand for except atonement.

Same thing with propitiation.

God and atonement

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