Universal reconciliation

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

Aelred of Rievaulx said:
I agree. The second coming is literal. Every Eucharist is literally the Parousia.

If the eucharist were the second coming, then why will everyone mourn at his LITERAL coming as it is said here,

Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30)

Aelred of Rievaulx · Nov 25, 2015

cgaviria said:
If the eucharist were the second coming, then why will everyone mourn at his LITERAL coming as it is said here,

Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30)

Well, you take the Eucharist figuratively, I take apocalyptic language figuratively: "Immediately after the suffering of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see 'the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" seems to me to draw upon the ancient Temple cosmology. Temples in the ancient Middle East were understood to be the universe in microcosm, the destruction of the Jerusalem temple seems to me to be conceived in the undoing of Creation. I would say the the later part of this pericope indicates the Eucharistic presence, the transference of the Temple to the Eucharist and the "gathering of the elect" to be those engaged in the Eucharistic prayer. I think of the text as consoling the early Jews/Christians who lost their Jerusalem Temple.

Aelred of Rievaulx · Nov 25, 2015

cgaviria said:
You have to understand what spiritual means. Take for example any prophecy in the old testament, like one in Daniel,

The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it. (Daniel 7:4)

This is talking about one of the past great empires. It didn't mean that the empire had lions, or had eagles. It is merely something SPIRITUAL, or FIGURATIVE, to DESCRIBE something REAL in this instance.

In Paul's assertion that he was them spiritually, he wasn't saying he was translocating there, thats absurd. He was merely just stating that he was there SPIRTUALLY, FIGURATIVELY. It's like a husband saying to a spouse, "I carry you in my heart." Its figurative.

Aelred of Rievaulx · Nov 25, 2015

cgaviria said:
You have to understand what spiritual means. Take for example any prophecy in the old testament, like one in Daniel,

The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it. (Daniel 7:4)

This is talking about one of the past great empires. It didn't mean that the empire had lions, or had eagles. It is merely something SPIRITUAL, or FIGURATIVE, to DESCRIBE something REAL in this instance.

In Paul's assertion that he was them spiritually, he wasn't saying he was translocating there, thats absurd. He was merely just stating that he was there SPIRTUALLY, FIGURATIVELY. It's like a husband saying to a spouse, "I carry you in my heart." Its figurative.

I think the author of Daniel probably had ASC experiences, all the writers of apocalyptic texts seem to me to be very esoteric individuals. The entire genre of apocalypticism is one of "unveiling": the way things appear in the world, the political and religious structures are pealed back and behind them the author wants his or her audience to see what is "really" happening. This is of course done with imagery, it tends to be structured in ex eventum prophecy and the texts tend to be attributed to great heroes in order to attach to the message an air of authority.

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

Aelred of Rievaulx said:
I think the author of Daniel probably had ASC experiences, all the writers of apocalyptic texts seem to me to be very esoteric individuals. The entire genre of apocalypticism is one of "unveiling": the way things appear in the world, the political and religious structures are pealed back and behind them the author wants his or her audience to see what is "really" happening. This is of course done with imagery, it tends to be structured in ex eventum prophecy and the texts tend to be attributed to great heroes in order to attach to the message an air of authority.

I don't know what to say man, if you don't really believe the scriptures are literally predicting things that will happen in the future then you're in some serious muck buddy.

Aelred of Rievaulx · Nov 25, 2015

cgaviria said:
I don't know what to say man, if you don't really believe the scriptures are literally predicting things that will happen in the future then you're in some serious muck buddy.

End timeism is a particularly American form of Christianity not so prevalent in other parts of Christian history or geography. I tend to be something of an amillennialist and am well within theological bounds to view the Eucharist as the Parousia. Pope Benedict XVI wrote that the Parousia is incommensurable with historical time.

Der Alte · Nov 25, 2015

cgaviria said:
Actually it is you leaning on your own understanding because YOU STILL haven't refuted the two verses I provided you with. Geeezzzzzzzz. If you can show me IN SCRIPTURE right now that I am wrong, I will change my view. Refute the two scriptures I just showed you. What is your logic concerning them.

You got it backwards amigo. You have not addressed the several scripture I quoted in my first post. I have showed you from scripture that you are wrong but you ignored it and assumed that the two verses you alluded to somehow refute the scripture I quoted. What you seem to not understand is, your interpretation is not relevant. How did the Jews at the time of Jesus interpret Isa 66:24? Did what Jesus taught about Isa 66:24 support or contradict what the Jews believed? You did not provide me any scripture to address, you mentioned one scripture reference without quoting the scripture and you mentioned "the carcasses of men thrown there will be around for everyone to see." You did not show how it related to Mark 9:43-48 and or refuted anything.

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

Der Alter said:
You got it backwards amigo. You have not addressed the several scripture I quoted in my first post. I have showed you from scripture that you are wrong but you ignored it and assumed that the two verses you alluded to somehow refute the scripture I quoted. What you seem to not understand is, your interpretation is not relevant. How did the Jews at the time of Jesus interpret Isa 66:24? Did what Jesus taught about Isa 66:24 support or contradict what the Jews believed? You did not provide me any scripture to address, you mentioned one scripture reference without quoting the scripture and you mentioned "the carcasses of men thrown there will be around for everyone to see." You did not show how it related to Mark 9:43-48 and or refuted anything.

I did actually make the link. Notice the usage of the worm and fire in both scriptures. They are both WITHOUT a question related. Let me requote the scriptures for you:

And they shall go forth, and shall see the carcasses of men, the ones violating against me. For their worm shall not come to an end, and their fire shall not be extinguished. And they will be for a sight to all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24 [ABP])

And heres the other,

[47] And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out! [*2*good *3*to you *1*For it is] [*2*one-eyed *1*to enter] into the kingdom of God, rather than [*2*two *3*eyes *1*having] to be thrown into the Gehenna of fire, [48] where their worm does not come to an end, and the fire is not extinguished.
(Mark 9:47-48 [ABP])

The connection between the two IS OBVIOUS. Therefore, you must conclude, that whatever Isaiah says about that same event, must also apply. And in the same event, does he declare that the carcasses of men will be visible. And as I explained, you can only have a carcass if YOU DIE. And not only will THEY DIE. But they will be A SIGHT TO ALL FLESH. Meaning who? People THAT ARE ALIVE ON THE EARTH. So this ALSO indicates that this fire WILL EXIST ON THE EARTH.

Also, regardless of who believed what, its not really my concern, my concern is scripture. The scripture teaches this and this is what it says.

Aelred of Rievaulx · Nov 25, 2015

cgaviria said:
The connection between the two IS OBVIOUS. Therefore, you must conclude, that whatever Isaiah says about that same event, must also apply.

One could just as easily say that the ideas relate intertextually. Mark uses this imagery because Mark, being Jewish, probably grew up reading Isaiah and the prophets. It was likely second nature to allude to the prophets when writing his gospel.

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

Aelred of Rievaulx said:
One could just as easily say that the ideas relate intertextually. Mark uses this imagery because Mark, being Jewish, probably grew up reading Isaiah and the prophets. It was likely second nature to allude to the prophets when writing his gospel.

These VERSES ARE RELATED. JESUS MENTIONS IT VERBATIM practically. How do you not think they are related??????? lol.

Aelred of Rievaulx · Nov 25, 2015

cgaviria said:
These VERSES ARE RELATED. JESUS MENTIONS IT VERBATIM practically. How do you not think they are related??????? lol.

I said I agreed they were related. Mark uses a lot of Old Testament imagery in his gospel...

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

Aelred of Rievaulx said:
I said I agreed they were related. Mark uses a lot of Old Testament imagery in his gospel...

Excellent

Aelred of Rievaulx · Nov 25, 2015

cgaviria said:
Excellent

I don't think that signifies an "end times" sort of coded message which needs to be uncovered by diligent conspiracy theorists who try to mould the textual data onto contemporary political relations or some other futuristic nonsenses...

2KnowHim · Nov 26, 2015

cgaviria said:
Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30)

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

If you think that, that Generation has not passed in 2,000 yrs. since this was spoken, then you are mistaken.
His coming is continual, the ONLY "second coming" as you put it is written here, and to ONLY those who "Look for Him" shall He appear.

Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

jugghead · Nov 26, 2015

cgaviria said:
Therefore it is possible to eat of it not being worthy and bring judgment on yourself.

I am still in the process of catching up on this thread but this jumped out at me when I read it ..... your statement is a picture of the garden in Genesis

......... they ate (Gen 3:6) .... And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; (Gen 3:7)

after they ate they brought judgment upon themselves in their nakedness, but God Himself did not tell them they were naked it came from inside themselves

cgaviria · Nov 26, 2015

2KnowHim said:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

If you think that, that Generation has not passed in 2,000 yrs. since this was spoken, then you are mistaken.
His coming is continual, the ONLY "second coming" as you put it is written here, and to ONLY those who "Look for Him" shall He appear.

Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

You're misinterpreting that scripture. "This" is a mistranslation. The Greek word used there should've been "the". Its a definite article. The greek word is http://studybible.info/strongs/G3588 . The generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. What generation? The generation present WHEN all these signs happen. Why won't it pass? Because the physical signs will all be done quickly in that same generation. The same usage of the Greek word "the" is used in other passages,

Thus says the LORD God, the one judging his people, Behold, I took from out of your hand the cup of the blow, the drinking cup of my rage; and you shall not proceed to drink it any longer. (Isaiah 51:22 [ABP])

cgaviria · Nov 26, 2015

jugghead said:
I am still in the process of catching up on this thread but this jumped out at me when I read it ..... your statement is a picture of the garden in Genesis

......... they ate (Gen 3:6) .... And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; (Gen 3:7)

after they ate they brought judgment upon themselves in their nakedness, but God Himself did not tell them they were naked it came from inside themselves

The scriptures are not related. The eating of the communion is something that was commanded by Jesus TO DO. The eating of the fruit in the garden was commanded by GOD TO NOT DO. The eating and drinking of the communion does not bring forth shame, it brings forth joy in remembering that by his death that the communion symbolizes are we saved.

jugghead · Nov 26, 2015

cgaviria said:
The scriptures are not related. The eating of the communion is something that was commanded by Jesus TO DO. The eating of the fruit in the garden was commanded by GOD TO NOT DO. The eating and drinking of the communion does not bring forth shame, it brings forth joy in remembering that by his death that the communion symbolizes are we saved.

By this statement ...... then it has not yet been revealed to you that what they ate of in the garden was "law" because the law is what reveals unrighteousness (nakedness)

This is what is meant when we read for by the law is the knowledge of sin, Adam only partook of one half of the communion, this we see at the mount of transfiguration, Christ is the law and the prophets in One, the prophets being the Spirit of the law, the true understanding of it, which is the wine in communion.

When we partake of the word of God (Christ/bread) without His Spirit (wine) the word will always become a law that will bring forth judgment upon ourselves which results in death, but to partake of the word of God (Christ/bread) WITH the wine (His Spirit) it will always produce righteousness which results in Life, which results in (reveals) Christ in you.

2KnowHim · Nov 26, 2015

this generation? A significant expression, occurring sixteen times (Mat_11:16; Mat_12:41, Mat_12:42; Mat_23:36; Mat_24:34. Mar_8:12, Mar_8:12; Mar_13:30. Luk_7:31; Luk_11:30, Luk_11:31, Luk_11:32, Luk_11:50, Luk_11:51; Luk_17:25; Luk_21:32). Characterized by other epithets, "evil" and "adulterous" (Mat_12:39, Mat_12:45; Mat_16:4. Mar_8:38. Luk_11:29); "faithless and perverse" (Mat_17:17. Mar_9:19. Luk_9:41); "untoward" (Act_2:40). All this because it was the particular generation that rejected the Messiah.

Strongs
Mat 24:34 VerilyG281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 ThisG3778 generationG1074 shall notG3364 pass,G3928 tillG2193 G302 allG3956 these thingsG5023 be fulfilled.G1096
ABP
Mat 24:34 AmenG281 I sayG3004 to you,G1473 In no wayG3766.2 should [2pass awayG3928 G3588 1this generation]G1074 G3778 untilG2193 wheneverG302 allG3956 these things G3778 should come to pass.G1096

Thus says the LORD God, the one judging his people, Behold, I took from out of your hand the cup of the blow, the drinking cup of my rage; and you shall not proceed to drink it any longer. (Isaiah 51:22 [ABP])[/QUOTE]

Isa. is Heb. not Greek and should be noted....
Isa 51:22 ThusH3541 saithH559 thy LordH113 the LORD,H3068 and thy GodH430 that pleadeth the causeH7378 of his people,H5971 Behold,H2009 I have takenH3947 out of thine handH4480 H3027 (H853) the cupH3563 of trembling,H8653 even(H853) the dregsH6907 of the cupH3563 of my fury;H2534 thou shalt noH3808 moreH3254 drinkH8354 it again:H5750

OldShepherd · Nov 26, 2015

Universal reconciliation

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Dying to Live

Growing

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Growing

Dying to Live

Zaqunraah

Similar threads