Hell

Jane_the_Bane said:

The conception of hell that I address here is a place of literal torment, where sapient beings are deliberately sent by God for failing to be as flawless as a deity,

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That's not why sapient beings are sent to Hell.

Sapient beings are sent to Hell for refusing to repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

Jane_the_Bane said:

So, if you believe that it is literally impossible for any of us to measure up to God's standard, and we are then punished for it -

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We don't believe we are punished for that.

We believe we are punished for refusing to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour.

Jane_the_Bane said:

... that's like torturing a dog with a branding iron for its failure to comprehend algebra. Or setting up an eight-meter pit (with poisoned spikes at the bottom) for people to jump over when you *know* they'll never get further than 6 m.

And I'm sorry, but basically extending a pardon to all who wave the right party membership card doesn't solve the moral dilemma here, either, because people are still being sent to Cosmic Auschwitz.

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I'm sorry, but your analogies are reflecting a severe misunderstanding of basic theology.

Jane_the_Bane said:

In short: how do you manage to reconcile this belief with anything remotely resembling justice?

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We aren't saved by justice.

We are saved by grace.

Ephesians 2:8a For by grace are ye saved through faith;

Justice is defined as: getting what one deserves.
Grace is defined as: getting what one does not deserve (Heaven).
Mercy is defined as: not getting what one does deserve (Hell).

1 Timothy 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

2 John 3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Notice there's no mention of justice in these passages?

God loves you and wants you to come to repentance and live in a mansion He will prepare just for you.

Since you see how ridiculous and cruel this concept of God and Hell are, surely you must know that you are misunderstanding both.

The first step of understanding anything is humility, and you've come here lacking that by the tone of your question. Your post does not seem as if you are sincerely seeking an answer, but already have one.

Jane_the_Bane said:

The answer I'm seeking is not so much about theology, but about understanding a certain kind of believer better.

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Then look in the right place: the Bible.

Take all of Christian theology into consideration; not just the part about Hell.

You will find the Antidote to your perplexity.

Jane_the_Bane said:

I'd like to believe that there's some kind of redeeming quality, some angle that'd reveal how I could respect them more.

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What exactly is making you disrespecting them/us in the first place?

Jane_the_Bane said:

Thatbrian, you misunderstand my intention.

As you can tell by my opening post, I am quite aware of diverse interpretations of hell, including many that do not paint God in an altogether unfavourable light.
I am mystified by Christians who do believe in something along the lines of what I've sketched in the OP, and fail to comprehend how anybody could hold such beliefs without recognizing what this implies about their image of deity.

The answer I'm seeking is not so much about theology, but about understanding a certain kind of believer better. I'd like to believe that there's some kind of redeeming quality, some angle that'd reveal how I could respect them more.

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I'm not sure that you should respect such people more. There are many people who call themselves Christians yet misrepresent Christianity intentional, and even more who do it unintentionally out of ignorance.

If I may, rather than trying to understand the type of people who holds these irrational and unbiblical ideas of God, why not attempt to gain some understanding about the subject from better sources.

The doctrine of Hell bothers a lot of Christians, and it's a difficult thing to come to terms with, yet it is there and unavoidable, so I take God at His word rather than ripping pages out of my Bible. Liberals tend to dismiss the idea of such a place. They disagreed anything that they don't like. They shape God rather than letting His Word shape them. On the other hand conservatives can go in the direction of your analysis above. To arrive at the truth we have to avoid both errors. BTW, this extends outside of Christianity. Li

There are 100 things to understand about God's nature, sin, Heaven and hell that make it much more understandable. For instance, it's the people who think that they are putting God in their debt by their deeds who are on a fast track for hell. Reading the gospels and seeing how Jesus dealt with the Pharisees is helpful. In God's economy, many things are the opposite of what one might expect.

This is a perfect example: "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" (Matthew 7:22-23).

These aren't atheists. These people cry out, Lord, Lord. They know Jesus and, in their thinking, they've served Him, yet Jesus calls them evildoers.

AV1611VET said:

Take all of Christian theology into consideration; not just the part about Hell.

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This is so true. God is a person, not a mathematical formula. He can't be understood like a textbook can be understood. Like all persons, He must be taken as a whole. Look at the character of Christ in the gospels. Is this a God who is gleeful at torturing people? Does He seem unconcerned about the plight of mankind. At the heart of Christianity is a cross, and on that cross, God, in the flesh, took upon Himself the punishment for sin so that we would not have to. He is not asking for anyone to jump a span that they are incapable of, He jumped the span. There is a span that is far greater than we can jump, this is absolutely true, but He came to us. He did not demand we do something that we were incapable of doing.

"As a father shows compassion to his children, so the LORD shows compassion to those who fear {reverence/respect} him. For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust." (Psalm 103:13-14 ESV)

thatbrian said:

He is not asking for anyone to jump a span that they are incapable of, He jumped the span. There is a span that is far greater than we can jump, this is absolutely true, but He came to us. He did not demand we do something that we were incapable of doing.

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Yes, indeed!

And this is so contrary to what was said here:

Or setting up an eight-meter pit (with poisoned spikes at the bottom) for people to jump over when you *know* they'll never get further than 6 m.

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Jesus, Himself, jumped the gap.

But He did it by jumping into the pit for us for three days; then coming out.

Jane_the_Bane said:

There's almost as many conceptions of hell as there are Christians, but I want to talk about a very specific one, and ONLY that.

So if you believe that Hell is God's absence, or his presence as experienced through the mind of the unregenerate sinner, or annihilation, or a temporary place of purification, or a conundrum to be solved by trusting that a just God would find a way to do the right thing and save all - this thread might not be for you.

The conception of hell that I address here is a place of literal torment, where sapient beings are deliberately sent by God for failing to be as flawless as a deity, and where they'll spend eternity with no chance of redeption or mercy.

To me, such a conception of hell reflects *extremely* badly on the corresponding conception of deity, and no argument from authority ("who are YOU to question an all-powerful being?????") will resolve the matter.

So, if you believe that it is literally impossible for any of us to measure up to God's standard, and we are then punished for it - that's like torturing a dog with a branding iron for its failure to comprehend algebra. Or setting up an eight-meter pit (with poisoned spikes at the bottom) for people to jump over when you *know* they'll never get further than 6 m.

And I'm sorry, but basically extending a pardon to all who wave the right party membership card doesn't solve the moral dilemma here, either, because people are still being sent to Cosmic Auschwitz.

In short: how do you manage to reconcile this belief with anything remotely resembling justice?

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I'm willing to talk about this, but your post has a lot of material in it, and where should I begin?

I'll start by saying I think you have a wooden opinion of the final judgment. That's pretty common, but the NT is much more nuanced. For example, there are degrees of punishments and degrees of rewards. Consider this nuggest from Jesus in Luke 12:

And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating.

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Notice the concept of a "light beating"? This passage reveals that there are degrees of punishment, and that ignorance of what God wants is a mitigating factor. Ignorance is not an excuse, but it is taken into account.

You also talk about God requiring perfection from us. Yes, I agree that he does, and receiving the forgiveness of sins through the acceptance of the Christ is the easiest way to meet that standard. So the Gospel really is "good news" because we can be forgiven so simply.

That's fine for those inside the church, but what does God do with those outside? Are they all damned?

The short answer is no, they're not. Jesus describes their judgment in Matthew 25:31-46. Some pass, and others fail. I'll ask you to read it and see the criteria Jesus uses to determine who among them is granted eternal life. The criteria may surprise you, and it reveals the heart of God because it reveals the kinds of people he wants to live with him in the next age. I'd like to continue this conversation after you've read it.

ChetSinger said:

This passage reveals that there are degrees of punishment, and that ignorance of what God wants is a mitigating factor.

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Chet, notice also in the story (not parable ... story) of the rich man and Lazarus, that the rich man was assigned to the outer environs of Hell, where it is the coolest.

The rich man was a religious man, evidenced by the fact that he addressed Abraham as ...

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jane_the_Bane said:

The conception of hell that I address here is 1. a place of literal torment, where 2. sapient beings are deliberately sent by God 3. for failing to be as flawless as a deity, and 4. where they'll spend eternity with no chance of redeption or mercy.

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If that is your view of the Hell, then you can close this thread. There is no place like that ever existed.
I do not know where did you get that absurd idea. I think it is either your imagination, or your misconception.

What

Jane_the_Bane said:

In short: how do you manage to reconcile this belief with anything remotely resembling justice?

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What is your suggestion to God, after reading the below?

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That ties to the question that whether the Bible indicates that Jesus is an optional choice.

Logically, what makes a message (a religion) a necessity to follow instead of an option is that the message is a warning about an extremely bad consequence.

If it's not because of this extremely bad consequence, you don't need God, you don't need Jesus, you don't need a religion at all. Just live whichever way you like the rest of your life, then it will all be done!

So put it the reversed way, if Jesus is not optional it implies that a bad consequence must have made Him (the salvation message from God) a necessity to follow.

Now why an immortal soul is needed in God's design perspective? Once a human died, his body will decay. Then no one ever knows who he is, not even the angels. Only God knows. "Only God knows" however won't be a valid open witnessing for his existence. A more permanent ID is needed by each human as a witnessing to show (say, to the angels) that he is the he from the beginning till the end.

Immortal soul is a Pharisaic concept dominated the Jews at Jesus time.

God on the other hand, is completely incompatible with sin, He's trying with His best effort right now to bear with our sins. This situation will end after the Judgment Day. He will be happy again after the Final Judgment with the relief that He needs to bear with human sins no more. He will since then live happily with the angels and the saved in an eternity we refer to as Heaven.

Now what happens to the unsaved? Their immortal souls will have to go another path. God will completely ignore their existence. This state is commonly referred to as the permanent separation from God.

What happens when humans (angels alike) are put in such a state? Since God is the only source of good in this universe, without God's presence and His guidance those in such a separation will finally come to an end where all of them will become the same as the devil himself.

God has ever sworn the oath that they can never enter His rest. There won't be any grace under any name to spare them from the situation. Unless the only Jesus is put to disgrace the second time. This however won't happen.

Finally, the unquenchable fire will come as a result.

Jane_the_Bane said:

There's almost as many conceptions of hell as there are Christians, but I want to talk about a very specific one, and ONLY that.

So if you believe that Hell is God's absence, or his presence as experienced through the mind of the unregenerate sinner, or annihilation, or a temporary place of purification, or a conundrum to be solved by trusting that a just God would find a way to do the right thing and save all - this thread might not be for you.

The conception of hell that I address here is a place of literal torment, where sapient beings are deliberately sent by God for failing to be as flawless as a deity, and where they'll spend eternity with no chance of redeption or mercy.

To me, such a conception of hell reflects *extremely* badly on the corresponding conception of deity, and no argument from authority ("who are YOU to question an all-powerful being?????") will resolve the matter.

So, if you believe that it is literally impossible for any of us to measure up to God's standard, and we are then punished for it - that's like torturing a dog with a branding iron for its failure to comprehend algebra. Or setting up an eight-meter pit (with poisoned spikes at the bottom) for people to jump over when you *know* they'll never get further than 6 m.

And I'm sorry, but basically extending a pardon to all who wave the right party membership card doesn't solve the moral dilemma here, either, because people are still being sent to Cosmic Auschwitz.

In short: how do you manage to reconcile this belief with anything remotely resembling justice?

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That is not the only view of the afterlife within christianity. Allow me to repost my response to a similar thread:

There are actually a surprising number of opinions in the bible and in judeo christian history.

Off the top of my head, I've got:
1. Full predestination (Calvinism) Elect are saved purely by the will of God and not by our works or choices
Scripture cited as supporting this view: John 15:16, John 1:12,13, Acts 13:48, Romans 9:15-16, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13
2. Free will salvation/conditional election (Various protestant groups)
Scripture cited as supporting this view: Isaiah 45:22, Mathew 11:28, John 3:16, John 7:17, John 7:37, John 12:32, Acts 17:30, 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9
3. All are ultimately redeemed/universalism (UU, Christian universalists, and some New Thought churches currently hold this view)
Dates back to at least the 18th century, possibly earlier.
Scripture cited as supporting this view: 1 Corinthians 15:22, Romans 5:18-19, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 4:10, Romans 11:32, 1 John 4:14

Going to rapid fire mode here
4. Salvation by works
5. No afterlife (view of the Sadducees) "The dead know nothing" from job
6. Heaven but no hell (at least not for people)

My own view is that this is a biblically ambiguous topic and a theologically unimportant issue. No interpretation is particularly useful in guiding how we should behave here on earth. Take for example someone faced with a decision to steal or not steal. All views tell him "don't steal". Only the "because" is different. Because you will go to hell, because you should be grateful you aren't going to hell, because it's the right thing to do regardless. If one view is more useful to an individual in resisting the temptation to steal, I think that person should believe that, especially if they are eyeing my stuff.

AV1611VET said:

That's not why sapient beings are sent to Hell.

Sapient beings are sent to Hell for refusing to repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.We don't believe we are punished for that.

We believe we are punished for refusing to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour.I'm sorry, but your analogies are reflecting a severe misunderstanding of basic theology.We aren't saved by justice.

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To my mind this makes things appear rather incredulous and sinister as well when it becomes boiled down...

If all that is required to avoid Cosmic Auschwitz (a very fitting metaphor) is something so simple it is almost jejune such as what you've described that plays on the ancient dramatical motif of comedy/tragedy to its absolute extremes. If such a place as hell did exist in the OP description and all that was required to avoid it is a few magic words then to use the analogy described earlier: it would be like digging a pit 8 meters wide with an incredibly simplistic and particular and not altogether obvious platform raised in the middle so that people can jump from one side to the other and knowing that most will never stumble upon it.

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

To my mind this makes things appear rather incredulous and sinister as well when it becomes boiled down...

If all that is required to avoid Cosmic Auschwitz (a very fitting metaphor) is something so simple it is almost jejune such as what you've described that plays on the ancient dramatical motif of comedy/tragedy to its absolute extremes. If such a place as hell did exist in the OP description and all that was required to avoid it is a few magic words then to use the analogy described earlier: it would be like digging a pit 8 meters wide with an incredibly simplistic and particular and not altogether obvious platform raised in the middle so that people can jump from one side to the other and knowing that most will never stumble upon it.

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Salvation also requires acknowledging that you are a sinner and repenting of same.

How 'jejune' would you consider it, if you and your girlfriend were shacking up, and she is convicted to say those 'few magic words,' then refuses to have s_x with you until you're married?

Not only that, she stops bar-hopping, mixed dancing/swimming, smoking, and even starts obeying traffic laws to the best of her ability: such as coming to a complete stop at stop signs and driving within the speed limits.

Not in order to be saved, mind you, but because she was saved and wants to please God.

Also, she starts reading her Bible and going to church regularly; and ... dare I say it ... tithing, giving an offering, and giving to Faith Promise?

It wouldn't be so 'jejune' then, would it?

I've seen this happen in real life, and in one instance, her "guy" met me in an alley to discuss what our church had done to her.

AV1611VET said:

Salvation also requires acknowledging that you are a sinner and repenting of same.

How 'jejune' would you consider it, if you and your girlfriend were shacking up, and she is convicted to say those 'few magic words,' then refuses to have s_x with you until you're married?

Not only that, she stops bar-hopping, mixed dancing/swimming, smoking, and even starts obeying traffic laws to the best of her ability: such as coming to a complete stop at stop signs and driving within the speed limits.

Not in order to be saved, mind you, but because she was saved and wants to please God.

Also, she starts reading her Bible and going to church regularly; and ... dare I say it ... tithing, giving an offering, and giving to Faith Promise?

It wouldn't be so 'jejune' then, would it?

I've seen this happen in real life, and in one instance, her "guy" met me in an alley to discuss what our church had done to her.

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So not only does one need to say a few magic words one needs to become a very socially conservative and rather boring person... I rather like going to bars and I did enjoy smoking but I've stopped that now, if I can get away with it I would drive as fast as I wanted, I've never had a speeding fine yet though. I read the bible more than most people enjoy church-hopping as much as bar-hopping (albeit within the more sacramental churches) and I don't give tithes or offerings (except to various charities) and I don't even know what a Faith Promise is... is it a Robert Tilton thing? It sounds like a Robert Tilton thing...

But yes, refusing to drink or smoke because of religion is jejune.

Jane_the_Bane said:

But technically, that is not what saves you, no? Only the party membership does (and embracing the party's line as closely as possible).

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The precious blood of Jesus Christ is what saves you.

Jane_the_Bane said:

Mixed dancing/swimming? Are you sure you aren't talking about radical Islamism here?

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She might even start wearing ... um ... dresses!

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

So not only does one need to say a few magic words ...

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Interesting word choices there.

Have you seen my thread where I equate today's science with witchcraft?

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

... one needs to become a very socially conservative and rather boring person...

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So much for "jejunity" then, eh?

AV1611VET said:

She might even start wearing ... um ... dresses!

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Or a Christian woman may deride the entire concept of matrimony as a sexist institution... Many did and joined monastic orders.

AV1611VET said:

Have you seen my thread where I equate today's science with witchcraft?

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No. But to be quite frank I can't help but extend the principle of charity your way... You're joking in the majority of your posts, right? You don't actually believe what you're saying in most cases, aren't you? I find it very difficult to believe that a rational person, a lover of the good and a believer in truth, would say the majority of the things you say.