If you believe.
- Thread starter Countryangel707
- Start date
I don't feel it's necessary. What would be the point? All I'm showing you is that faith in that verse isn't speaking of a saving faith.
Upvote
0
ViaCrucis
Confessional Lutheran
- Oct 2, 2011
- 37,457
- 26,886
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Lutheran
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- US-Others
Salvation isn't a theology exam, nor is salvation a morality exam.
Salvation is Jesus Christ crucified and risen, and this is for you.
Those who would require you to meet some standard of righteousness or merit preach a false gospel.
There is no one that is righteous, says St. Paul in Romans ch. 3. None, save for Jesus Christ. It is not your righteousness, but His, that matters.
You have been baptized, and you believe, the righteous of Christ is yours by faith, and you belong to God. Your sins are forgiven, and your hope is true. Do not doubt, believe these things, for they are most certainly true.
-CryptoLutheran
Upvote
0
Your right it's not a theology exam. She was wondering how she could know her belief was real or not so I told her she could examine herself like scripture tells us too. John gave us ways we could look at ourselves so we can 'know' (1 John 5:13) " I write you these things to you who believe in the name of the son of God so that you may know you have eternal life."
if you notice, on the bottom of my post I made it clear that I'm not saying these are works we must do to be saved but rather these are the fruits John said we would have.
Agree
Upvote
0
ViaCrucis
Confessional Lutheran
- Oct 2, 2011
- 37,457
- 26,886
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Lutheran
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- US-Others
Our confidence before God (Coram Deo) must always be the Gospel--what God has done and what God has assured us--never ourselves. The fruit which we bear is not the confidence nor assurance we have of our justification before God, as that would render ourselves self-justifying by our merits. Faith shall bear fruit, but we must be exceptionally cautious. Because the temptation of the Opinion of the Law is always lurking, and we mustn't give it occasion to strike and injure our faith; the Opinion of the Law--that we can accomplish righteous deeds worthy of God's favor or that our position before God is in any way determined by our efforts, strength, or works--must be thwarted by the right preaching of both the Law and the Gospel.
The assurance of our present and future salvation must always look upon Christ, never ourselves. It must always cling to the external and objective Means, upon God's Word and Sacraments, where God has assured us He will be and will act to grant us faith and to save us. For faith is not from ourselves, but from God, it is a gift, that no one may boast.
As someone who for much of my Christian life labored under the idea that being saved entailed seeing the Cross as but the entryway to salvation and that the Christian ought to sin less and become better morally and spiritually over time, it was exceptionally grieving and despairing. I couldn't have any confidence that God had and was saving me, because the focus was continually upon my own spiritual growth, and my own abilities to restrict sin in various areas of my life and pursue a more righteous life--the reality of which is that there is no moral ascent. One will never, in this life, discover themselves free from sin; we indeed do struggle daily against the old man and pray the Lord in the power of His Spirit continually draw us toward His righteousness; but daily we will sin, daily we will fail. And if we focus on our progress we will soon discover that no progress is made, I was a sinner yesterday, and I am a sinner today. No more, no less. Which is why we must always see ourselves, before God, under the promises and things which He has made and done, not ourselves.
Not toward lawlessness as though "since grace abounds I shall go on sinning", but to a right understanding of Law and Gospel. And with the Law condemning us it drives us to repentance, and calls us to a better way forward; doubly demanding that we do the just things God has commanded as well as showing us our utter failure to do it even as we try daily. But this not to our despair, because God in Christ has reconciled us to Himself and has made us righteous with the righteousness of Christ, and therefore we can, before God, with confidence say we belong to Him, that He is ours, and we are His, and that where Christ is we shall be also. God doesn't need our good works (indeed, because even our best works, our best attempts at being righteous fall short); but our neighbor does. It is our neighbor that hungers for food, that is thirsty for drink, that needs a roof over their head, medicine to make them well, and clothes on their back. Our neighbor needs our compassion, generosity, and kindness. So before man (Coram hominibus) we must always see ourselves as under the Law driving us toward good works, good works that our neighbor might see them and praise God, that our neighbor might be made well, made happy, and that peace happens between us and our neighbor to the glory of God.
But such things are not our confidence, nor the signs of our salvation--that is found solely in Christ, on Christ's account, upon the things God has said and declared; it is rather for the sake of our fellow man that we seek to do good, love everyone, and live in the new obedience which God has prepared for us in Christ our Lord, for we have been created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God has prepared beforehand for us.
-CryptoLutheran
Upvote
0
I agree, but in this context countrygirl was trying to decipher the difference between a genuine faith and just head knowledge.
I agree that our assurance of salvation comes by looking at the cross and trusting what Christ did. And we are saved by Faith alone in Christ alone. But we are commanded to examine ourselves to see if our faith is real.
(2 Cor 13:5) "EXAMINE YOURSELVES to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?".
Also, the apostle John gave us a list of fruits that a true believer will see as evidence in there life. (1 John 5:13), "I WRITE THESE THINGS TO YOU who believe in the name of the Son of God SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW that you have eternal life." Then he goes on to say what these fruits are and he follows them up with phrases like "This Is how we know we are children of God" (1 John 3:10).
So in conclusion we are commanded to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. If we truly believe we will see the fruit in our lives.
Upvote
0
I believe that "one" or only some Christians get the gift of wisdom and the gift of knowledge yes.
It's not a hill that I will die on but it's the way I see it.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
NJA
Senior Member
You began by trying to teach that only some Christians speak in tongues because of a rhetorical question in 1 Corinthians 12 "do all speak in tongues".
I pointed out that you completely miss the context and you have since agreed that "to one" or some given faith, wisdom and knowledge cannot mean that only some Christians have these attributes.
It only remains for you to extend this simple distinction to speaking in tongues.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
ViaCrucis
Confessional Lutheran
- Oct 2, 2011
- 37,457
- 26,886
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Lutheran
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- US-Others
Not all speak in tongues, not all prophesy, not all have gifts of healing, knowledge, etc.
So, no, not every Christian has every charism of the Spirit; and no, glossolalia is not a gift that every Christian has.
"Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers; then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But strive for the greater gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way." - 1 Corinthians 12:27-31
The answer to Paul's rhetorical questions, by the way, is a resounding no. Not all are apostles. Not all are teachers. Not all speak in tongues. Etc.
So if you are attempting to say that glossolalia is a necessary sign of one having the Spirit or of being a Christian or being saved, then quite simply you err, and err severely.
-CryptoLutheran
Upvote
0
That's correct, but not only because of that verse. There are more.
I disagree
I never said it "cannot mean that only some Christians have these attributes ".
I don't know where your having an issue. I pointed out that that verse is saying tongues is not for every believer. You said, "that would mean not every believer has faith". (Because that verse also mentions faith as a spiritual gift.) And I answered you saying it's not talking about a saving faith. All believers have a saving faith not every believer has faith to move mountains. That's it. Simple.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
aiki
Regular Member
No.
John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles all preached repentance as a part of salvation, too. (Matt. 3:2, 8; Lu. 3:3; 5:32; 13:3; 24:47; Ac. 2:38; 20:21) What is repentance? A change of mind, a determination to turn from a life of independence from God and sin to one that is holy and centered upon Him. Salvation isn't merely "fire insurance" but the conscious choosing of a new, holy, Christ-centered way of living.
From what are you saved? And why? And to what are you saved? These are very important questions to answer if you want to properly understand salvation. Christ warned those who would be his disciples, who would be born-again, to count the cost of doing so. (Lu. 14:28-33) He warned also that being his disciple, being saved, required entire self-sacrifice. (Matt. 10:37-39; 16:24, 25) Too often these days, salvation is condensed into a ritual of prayer that is utterly disconnected from a Christ-centered, self-sacrificial life. But as far as the Bible is concerned, this is not genuine salvation.
Selah.
Upvote
0
NJA
Senior Member
please name one!
why? in what other context do we find the Spirit only giving these attributes to some Christians?
You began by using it to teach that on;y some Christians speak in tongues!
"tongues may be the gift some have but not everyone." (post #26)
But you then distinguish "gift" of faith, knowledge etc from the general use, which I agree with, will you do the same for tongues?
Because receiving the Holy Spirit is receiving salvation (Titus 3:5-6). Theis 1 gospel so it must be the same as at the beginning - all knew precisely when they received by God's independent witness of speaking in tongues - see Acts 2:4, 33, 39; 10:44-46 etc, but now and you come along and use 1 Corinthians 12:29-30 against this clear teaching!
Do you know why Paul says what he does in 1 Corinthians 12?
What is the issue he is dealing with?
If you don't know why the chapter was written it is unlikely you ar going to use it corrctly!
I have also asked you what happens in the main meetings where you worship?
I ask because I know that this is what the passage (and chapter 14 in greater detail) is refrring to and if you don't worship as detailed in it you are unlikely to appreciate what it says!
So, salvation and following the love and commandments of God ... big enough issue for you?
Upvote
0
Read post 54
read post 54. Can you show me a verse that says tongues is the evidence of salvation?
Correct
I don't know why we can't get past this. Just because I clarified what is meant by faith doesn't mean I have to do the same with tongues.
Titus 3:5-6 has nothing to do with speaking in tongues. And 1 Cor 12 has nothing to do with salvation.
He was teaching the Corinthians how things in the church should be run. I have no issue here.
I attend a church that doesn't believe in the continuation of the gifts. I don't agree with them on that but it is a debatable issue so it doesn't bother me.
I believe we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. Following the commandments (though none of us can to this perfectly) are the result of having been reborn, not a requirement for salvation but a result of salvation.
Upvote
0
NJA
Senior Member
doh! he just quotes the same one you quoted!
(and like you ignores the context, and all my comments to that effect on this thread)
I already have, please see my previous posts and respond to the points you have hitherto ignored
I never said it did, that's why I went on to wisdom & knowledge.
Do you say there is a distinction between "the gift" of tongues referred to in 1 Corinthians 12 and tongues speaking in tongues referred to elsewhere?
You still aren't following the conversation, I have seen this from the start so this will be my last response unless I see a change in attitude.
So Paul is not talking about what different Christians get at salvation??
It doesn't bother you that the main passage on how the church meeting should be run (1 Corinthians 14 especially) is ignored?
"Follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts ... If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (vv1, 37)
Paul says that those that do such are neither prophetic or spiritual.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
but then he goes on to speak about how we all have different gifts because we are different parts of the same body. He relates each gift with a different body part.
I've responded to your other Posts piece by piece.
I don't know what I'm missing.
no
I'm trying but I'm having trouble following you. I don't have this problem with other people. Maybe it's the way you construct your sentences; I don't know. I also have asperges.
He's just simply stating different believers have different gifts, as seen in his rhetorical question.
It's a debatable issue if the gifts are for today or not. I'm more concerned that they teach the essentials. Eg, Christ's deity, the trinity, faith alone in Christ alone and so on.
In the book of first John the apostle gives us a rundown on how we 'can know' we are children of God. The whole chapter is dedicated to the assurance of our faith. Why isn't tongues mentioned in there? Why doesn't it say "if you have the gift of tongues, you can know that you are a child of God"
Upvote
0
Similar threads
