an argument for the salvation of all

2KnowHim said:

2Co 5:14 For the love of the Christ constraineth us; judging this, that One died for all, then all died:
2Co 5:15 And that He died for all, in order that the living should no longer live unto themselves, but unto Him Which died for them, and rose again.

This is not a choice, this is something He did for All, we all have shared in His death, some just don't know it yet but they will.
1Ti_2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

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Am not sure how many times I need to agree with someone that what He did demonstrated an OVERABUNDANCE of Love for EVERYONE. An that would be the meaning behind "no man hath greater love than...". The fact there is an OVERABUNDANCE is what makes it possible for me to without reservation say God's Pleasure already received from that single act of Love is INFINITE. Which means He not only did enough to save us all, He did much, much, much - to infinity and beyond - more in giving God Pleasure than the some total of the finite number of sins of all the human race. That is undeniable by anyone regardless whether one thinks everyone inherits the Free Gift made possible by that single act of Love for us all.

In my way of thinking, and even when looking at human concepts of inheritance, we can receive or not receive our inheritance. Especially if we ask could our actions impact our inheritance in any manner. Of course our actions could. So turning that thought to God and what He did for us all. The thought that just because He made that act of Love sufficient for all to be ABLE to inherit what HE as a man inherited by that single act, am not sure how to see that it must follow that all must inherit what He made possible for us to inherit THRU Him (that is the man Jesus). Especially when we start talking about people who reject wanting anything to do with that inheritance. No. Our inheritance is not forced on us. What kind of Love would want the love returned to be forced anyway?

I could see a case for saying God could change His Mind about the deadline for people to accept or reject His Gift or that He has always intended to allow the damned to eventually accept that Gift - but nothing He said while here suggests He does or will. And a lot He said, as well as a lot of what the men He taught have said, said we have one and only one shot and accepting the inheritance the Man called Jesus made possible for everyone. Otherwise, once that shot is gone the only inheritance we have comes from Adam - which God said is death - which He shows us in same story is a separation from Him.
So do we have a choice to accept or reject the inheritance God offers us all?
And can we subsequently reject it?
I think so and I know that is not my original thought. And the fact He gave us Free Will, the fact there is no Love worth having which is forced and all His statements, the quotes He allows us to read today support we all have a choice - even the ones who have never heard is name or even claim to reject Him or follow another name (Alla comes to mind) and no matter when or where a persons lived - they all have a choices and this the most important one.

lutherangerman said:

I think you make the mistake of judging people, indirectly. Jesus made it a point that the Godhead does not judge humans. And he said we should not judge either. But we circumvent that command by saying God judges. How is that now? If we are not supposed to judge people, and God is not judging people, why do we create new judgments by telling people that God will judge them? It's the same in green. Same old thing. Judging and scaring people who may have done nothing wrong except their small mistakes and imperfections. And don't get me started on the being born and being condemned connection you propose, @DrBubbaLove . That is so wrong. God welcomes us into this world and life, he does not start with condemning us.

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Then the proposal seems to be we are all OK and need not concern ourselves at all how we behave. We could say there is Good but the God that it represents is indifferent to what we do, but His indifference would not have to mean there is not some external concept of Truth and therefore right and wrong which we can then decide what we aught or aught not do. But you would be right, if there is no condemnation for anything we do, then it really does not matter now or in eternity if we do what we know we aught not do, or fail to do that which know we should.

Of course there are some issues with having a concept of an indifferent and also benevolent deity, but I do not need to go there to already say I do not need to ask whether it should matter to us if something is right or wrong. It should matter because it is part of nature that it does matter because of way our Maker made us. And because that is so, we can say the injustice resulting from Him allowing us the individual freedom to wrongly say or think it does not matter to me if I do or don't do, then the need for restoring what should be from what we have made it is also created by us not Him. And then any action we want to attribute to Him to restore all the injustices, to make things right again necessarily requires the beings He made to know better are held accountable for there deeds. However He chooses to hold them accountable to make restoring that balance possible, whether by eternal anguish of being left to stew in the misery/self loathing of their former self centered selves as they desired in this life or on some sort of eternal crock pot slow roast is irrelevant.

The fact He Himself is depicted telling a story supporting the idea some folks are right now in that slow roast does not support the idea that the slow roast ends with them joining everyone else at the beach. In fact the more you think about the reality He depicted the less it becomes possible to imagine that the rich man will get that water he is shown longing for one day. Nope.

-57 said:

DrBubbaLove, are you saying that what we do has a role in saving us? That doesn't sound right.
I have come to accept that people "demonstrated by their life" as a result of their salvation rather than a means of their salvation.

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Am saying that any inheritance worthy of desire can be accepted or rejected voluntarily, otherwise it is being forced on us and it could really be called a Gift and certainly not a Gift of Love. Accepting it and then doing nothing before our death indicating that we subsequently, voluntarily and obviously rejected it means we get it. That is not works salvation.

And yes our actions always come into play when considering whether someone with the authority can decide if we should or should not receive an inheritance, or less server how much of full inheritance we should be granted. And that does not mean we have to work for it. It means we can reject it totally or accepted it totally. And it also means that things we can subsequently do AFTER accepting the inheritance can impact not only whether we have now decided to reject it, but also impact how much of it we can obtain. So we have thoughts against OSAS and also on the existence of levels in Heaven (for similar reasons in Hell also).

DrBubbaLove said:

Neither is the word Trinity or all aspects of the Doctrine that Truth represents, yet many of us still believe in Faith (from God) that it is so. Help Thou my unbelief is certainly Scriptural, but you won't find the thought "our Faith comes from God and so is NOT blind" in the Bible either but it is still True. So what is the point?
That some believe Baptism is a meaningless as far as effect on our soul, and instead just act of either ritual or outward sign of agreement or outward sign of obedience that Christians should do is not in the Bible either - yet am willing to bet I just described a view that is at least close to your own. If not, it does not really matter as the Bible is not clear at all why we must be Baptized for salvation. Yet we do it or at least most of us do it properly. if held alone without the tradition from the Apostles (which is true with many of all our various beliefs) then you might have a point in saying Baptism does not make us Holy and that we still remain free afterwards to mess that up royally.

The Bible clearly says Saint John the Baptizer did what he did for the forgiveness of sins. And he is depicted doing that before he met the Baptizer outside of the womb at least. The disciples were directed and presumably obeyed in going out to baptize people for the forgiveness of their sins BEFORE Christ died. They are also later told to go and forgive peoples sins (or not which should beg more questions) which goes to assert that both Baptism and whatever one wants to think those disciples could choose to do or not do in the way of forgiving people sins, BOTH directives from God have some effect on the condemnation we earn for our sins. So am unclear why anyone would think my expression that both a proper Baptism and a proper forgiveness of sins are not only possible but supported by those same depictions in Scriptures just mentioned. That some disagree those Scriptures mean that, simply means we do not agree - it does not mean it has no Scriptural basis.

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DrBubbaLove,
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

NOT WATER.

DrBubbaLove said:

Am saying that any inheritance worthy of desire can be accepted or rejected voluntarily, otherwise it is being forced on us and it could really be called a Gift and certainly not a Gift of Love. Accepting it and then doing nothing before our death indicating that we subsequently, voluntarily and obviously rejected it means we get it. That is not works salvation.

And yes our actions always come into play when considering whether someone with the authority can decide if we should or should not receive an inheritance, or less server how much of full inheritance we should be granted. And that does not mean we have to work for it. It means we can reject it totally or accepted it totally. And it also means that things we can subsequently do AFTER accepting the inheritance can impact not only whether we have now decided to reject it, but also impact how much of it we can obtain. So we have thoughts against OSAS and also on the existence of levels in Heaven (for similar reasons in Hell also).

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Sounds like you're only doing good works with the hopes of saving your own butt when you die rather than doing good works for the glory of God.

Just how much good works must you do?

lutherangerman said:

I would want to get this thread back to the original topic. I spoke about the Jews of the Holocaust. If the assertions of conservative and biblical christianity are true, then the Jews went to hell after they died in the KZ's, and other germans who happened to believe in Christ went to Heaven. This is an absurdity for me and reveals to me how little we have learned about God's love and how little we have strayed from understanding and helping human suffering. When someone claims that God loves and saves all of us, he is swept underfoot easily. We are not really thinking of Christ's cross in these things anymore, and our understanding of God's judgment seems to be equate to thinking it is only condemnation except if somehow you wear a Christ badge. I propose we should have a more benevolent view of God and his love and the judgments that are not condemnations.

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You seem to be assuming their belief in Christ.

lutherangerman said:

Belief in Christ is a product of being saved, not its initiator. First there is God's grace which by Christ's Cross extends to all of us.

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If God grace is extended to all people....then why do many not accept it?

Is it because one has a higher IQ?
Is it because of where you were born?
Is it because of who you had for a first grade teacher?
Is it because of who you married?
Is it because God is not sovereign?
Is it because God doesn't have providence?

lutherangerman said:

If you had come to me with belief in God when I was still an atheist in my early youth, I would probably not have accepted it either. It was really veiled for me. In fact, it is only in recent times that I have come to see the extreme likelihood that God is the creator of nature. I was not able to see this earlier either.

And I am not sure I was back then such a terrible human that a God would see fit to let me suffer forever for my unbelief. After all he always had had the option of speaking to me in his way and to get me to see his points.

Faith is wonderful if you have it but if you do not have it then this should not be reason for condemnation. After all you can't build faith on a foundation of fear and condemnation. Also, a human has his worth in God's eyes even when there is no faith in him yet, as we can see in Paul saying that Christ died for us while we were still sinners.

And when God can love someone imperfect as me, can't he love other humans as well who are just as imperfect?

And I would generally say that God's love comes from Him considering us his children, the work of his hands and Him being the Father of our spirit. And that salvation has to do with suffering that God rescues us from if we live together with him and learn the wisdom of heeding him.

People who were born into christian families often can't understand how God is not obvious to other people. Really it is more this oddity that stands between them and God, not even their sin. Who would not want reassurance in the face of death and suffering and loneliness in life in God?? Who would not want to be the friend of God in a general sense, to have someone as awesome and big as Him by your side???

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Thanks for the reply.
Did God in His sovereign providence cause the events to transpire in your life that allowed you to believe or was it left up to chance and you just so happened to find God?

There is no search for God in the fallen nature of man. We are vessels of His Mercy, not by our choice but by His Grace.

Isa_65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
Rom_10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

lutherangerman said:

If only those who believe in Jesus in their lifetime were saved then the Jews of the Holocaust would have become lost. But this cannot be because that would be the greatest tragedy on Earth - God's first children becoming destroyed. We can trust in a gentle Lord who does not leave anyone who has called on him, and the Jews prayed a lot in the death camps.

My mother once taught me that in every group of people you can find good and bad persons. Not every believer treats people kindly and acts well towards men, nature and God. Not every unbeliever does much evil.

That is something we should not forget. God wants to save all men and Christ actually came to include all kinds of sinners in God's scope of salvation. And when they cannot believe in Jesus they are just sinning which can be forgiven. Also, in our modern age there can be many strong reasons for not believing in Jesus, including the judgmental and ignorant thing that the church has sometimes made out of the faith.

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Judaism seems today to have a special place in the understanding of religious pluralism which one day I hope Islam and Buddhism to have (although in some respects there have been some positive interactions in recent history between these religions and various Christianities). I think that most Catholics today would take for granted some form of purgatorial universalism, and some of the more Eastern and Oriental of us may look to apokatastasis (at least praying for it and hoping for it). It's been the Christian hope since before St Paul that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow in heaven, on earth and under the earth.

When Jesus was on the Cross and said ....."Father forgive them for they know not what they do", I don't believe that was just for those who crucified Him or those who were there do you? And what happens to God's Mercy after someone dies? Does His Mercy die too? How can it, when it is who He is. And if the sacrifice of His Son is not as equal to the sin of the world,......Then it would fall short would it not? But thank God it didn't for it is written....

1Co_15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Why must we see all things put under His feet and all Redeemed Now to believe?
When all we have to do is See HIM, and KNOW.

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

lutherangerman said:

I think we must believe in a heavenly court session after we die. Paul simply calls this the "judgment" but I don't think he simply means condemnation. In this court session we meet the risen Jesus Christ and he won't be going to waste his cross and his merciful love there. That means, we can plead for mercy in the heavenly court. The question is simply whether some evil people would actually want to live in hell and not in heaven, because the heavenly life is honest and good and pure, and evil people do not want that. I was once met by someone from hell in a kind of wake nightmare. He was so perverted and blasphemous. He was proof for me that God rejects nobody in the heavenly court, but that some choose to go to hell to do perversions there. That is the "damnation" the bible means, not that God damns or judges anyone (just like Jesus he wouldn't), but that some people don't want a part in salvation, not just in this life but also beyond.

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I am inclined to agree, although we can well hope even that person might change and be saved.

It also seems to me not entirely impossible the person you encountered was demonaic.

In my life I have dealt with rather too many evil people, and most of them are slaves to the passions as opposed to being demonaic. We ourselves can be frighteningly evil if we allow ourselves to move in such a direction. One of the things I love about the operas of Richard Wagner is the way in which we pass frighteningly into the mind of evil people, for example, in Gotterdamerung, Albericht famously says "Haagen, my son, hate the happy."

lutherangerman said:

I would want to get this thread back to the original topic. I spoke about the Jews of the Holocaust. If the assertions of conservative and biblical christianity are true, then the Jews went to hell after they died in the KZ's, and other germans who happened to believe in Christ went to Heaven. This is an absurdity for me and reveals to me how little we have learned about God's love and how little we have strayed from understanding and helping human suffering. When someone claims that God loves and saves all of us, he is swept underfoot easily. We are not really thinking of Christ's cross in these things anymore, and our understanding of God's judgment seems to be equate to thinking it is only condemnation except if somehow you wear a Christ badge. I propose we should have a more benevolent view of God and his love and the judgments that are not condemnations.

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On this point, I fear you are in error, regarding "conservative and biblical Christianity." Many conservative evangelicals would argue on the basis of covenental or dispensational soteriology that the Jews would be saved on account of their Judaism. Whereas others would point to "I will have mercy on who I will have mercy."

Because God has declared "I will have mercy and not sacrifice," we can pray for the salvation of such people. Indeed on this basis there are Eastern Orthodox liturgical seevices that can be used for the funerals of non-Orthodox.

2KnowHim said:

When Jesus was on the Cross and said ....."Father forgive them for they know not what they do", I don't believe that was just for those who crucified Him or those who were there do you? And what happens to God's Mercy after someone dies? Does His Mercy die too? How can it, when it is who He is. And if the sacrifice of His Son is not as equal to the sin of the world,......Then it would fall short would it not? But thank God it didn't for it is written....

1Co_15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

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Does this include the people who's names were not fould in the lambs book of life?

-57 said:

Does this include the people who's names were not fould in the lambs book of life?

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Absolutely. If God concluded all Israel in unbelief that He may have Mercy upon all, then how much more the world?
Is He the God of the Jews only, or is He not also the God of Gentiles too?
For All have sinned and come short.....