Universal reconciliation

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,485
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I am not an x-catholic although as a baby I was baptized in it. But from from the time that I have memory I have always opposed the catholic church.

Why? Who taught you to hate the Church? Mother? Father? Uncle or Aunt? Bad priest? Did you just absorb their hatred without doing any research into the facts? Where did this hatred come from?
 
Upvote 0

cgaviria

Well-Known Member
Nov 23, 2015
1,854
184
37
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Visit site
✟23,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
So you are against self-defense and protecting one's people?

Yes. Jesus said, Matthew 5:39

But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
 
Upvote 0

cgaviria

Well-Known Member
Nov 23, 2015
1,854
184
37
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Visit site
✟23,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Why? Who taught you to hate the Church? Mother? Father? Uncle or Aunt? Bad priest? Did you just absorb their hatred without doing any research into the facts? Where did this hatred come from?

No. I read the scripture and uncovered who they were.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,485
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Yes. Jesus said, Matthew 5:39

But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

Well, I can respect that if that is your belief. I find it interesting that you take this very literally, yet regarding the Eucharist, you don't want to take it literally.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,485
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
No. I read the scripture and uncovered who they were.

Okay.....so is it the Roman Rite that you hate, or is it all Catholics and Holy Orthodox?
 
Upvote 0

cgaviria

Well-Known Member
Nov 23, 2015
1,854
184
37
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Visit site
✟23,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Oh really!?!?!? That ain't what Jesus said. For someone who claims that Scripture is an integral and important part of his life, you are pretty choosy over what you will and won't believe, aren't you?

Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life. (Not "I represent" the bread of life...I AM) 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. (He calls Himself the Bread of Life) 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (Jesus says that He is "living bread" and that the bread is His flesh)52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (Now here's a clue - the Jews knew He was speaking in literal terms, didn't they?) 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. (Pretty plain language here. This is what the Church understood for 1500 years until Baptist and Protestant heretics came along!) 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (Wait! What happened to "faith alone?" Jesus says you MUST eat His Flesh and drink His Blood) 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. (Dude! What more does He have to say? This is so clear a child could understand it - but a Protestant somehow does not!) 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

You are correct in saying that we must partake on the communion of Jesus, but itself it not the granter of life. Jesus Christ is the one that grants life,

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)

the communion is a COMMAND given to us to follow and it is a symbol of his death. And not everyone that partakes of it will have eternal life, as Paul even said,

For the one eating and drinking unworthily, [*4*judgment *5*to himself *1*eats *2*and *3*drinks], not discriminating the body of the Lord. (I Corinthians 11:29 [ABP])

Therefore it is possible to eat of it not being worthy and bring judgment on yourself.
 
Upvote 0

Aelred of Rievaulx

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2015
1,398
606
✟12,231.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Would you really trust the nazi party if they came into existence again and said, oh we apologize for killing all those millions 11 million people? and how many did the church kill, was it not around 50 million? My advise is this, follow after the scripture, not after your catholic church. Didn't it occur to you that if these people killed so many people that ITS PERHAPS SO LIKELY that they had their theology was all messed up too? So if their theology is all messed up, didnt it occur to you that thats what their probably teaching you NOW at their church? I encourage you to STUDY the scripture on your own and you will see, with much study, that much of catholic teaching contradicts scripture. But beside doctrine, be smart. Maybe you've heard an expression similar to this, "if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, then its a duck!", or "if it smells fishy, theres something wrong here." Same thing here. You have clear signs that theres something wrong there. You cant deny its history. You also cant deny that it is now even presently political as well, as it always has been. Since when have the things of Jesus Christ been political? His TRUE church has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS OR GOVERNMENTS. It has to do with righteousness, with things of the spirit, being humble, loving your church brother, spreading the gospel, etc. I highly advise you to leave the catholic institution. And I can't stress it enough, only because I know HOW DEEPLY EVIL IT IS.
Equating the Roman Catholic Church with Nazism is rather spurious. Further, William Cavanaugh has written a great and I would say convincing argument that the motivations behind the so-called religious wars of the Post-Reformation era owe more to the emergence of political powers and the rise of nationhood rather than singularly religious motivations. It becomes quite difficult to argue for purely religiously motivated violence given that it is really very difficult to identify what a "religion" is. Indeed, according to Jonathan Z Smith, while people have always worshipped this that and the other, while people have always participated in rituals and told fantastical stories, "religion" is a category imposed upon these sorts of actions.

Also, I have a degree in theology, I've studied the bible (and many other texts too).
 
Upvote 0

cgaviria

Well-Known Member
Nov 23, 2015
1,854
184
37
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Visit site
✟23,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Well, I can respect that if that is your belief. I find it interesting that you take this very literally, yet regarding the Eucharist, you don't want to take it literally.

I didn't disagree with you on Eucharist, I simply clarified WHAT THE SOURCE of LIFE is. It is NOT DOING the Eucharist, but RATHER, IT IS JESUS CHRIST WHO IS THE SOURCE. Those who FOLLOW HIM, THE SOURCE, DO THE Eucharist, ALSO KNOWN AS THE COMMUNION. I rather call it the communion because it is the word used in the scripture and the Eucharist is the word used by the catholic church.
 
Upvote 0

Aelred of Rievaulx

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2015
1,398
606
✟12,231.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I didn't disagree with you on Eucharist, I simply clarified WHAT THE SOURCE of LIFE is. It is NOT DOING the Eucharist, but RATHER, IT IS JESUS CHRIST WHO IS THE SOURCE. Those who FOLLOW HIM, THE SOURCE, DO THE Eucharist, ALSO KNOWN AS THE COMMUNION. I rather call it the communion because it is the word used in the scripture and the Eucharist is the word used by the catholic church.
Yes, Jesus Christ is the source and he is fully present at the Eucharist which means that by extension the Eucharist is the source...
 
Upvote 0

cgaviria

Well-Known Member
Nov 23, 2015
1,854
184
37
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Visit site
✟23,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Yes, Jesus Christ is the source and he is fully present at the Eucharist which means that by extension the Eucharist is the source...

No, that is where you are mistaken. Jesus Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father, and he doesnt daily come down at the taking of the communion.

"Don't cling to me," Jesus said, "for I haven't yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (John 20:17)

That is ridiculous. Show me in scripture where that is true. Again, the communion is a COMMAND AND IT IS A SYMBOL that those who follow him must do. But it is not the source of salvation, Jesus Christ is. By you doing the communion, its not going to save you. In fact, the opposite will happen, judgment upon you, if you are not worthy. There is something else of greater importance than doing the communion. It is receiving the Spirit. When you are born of God THEN ARE YOU WORTHY to take the communion.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,485
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I didn't disagree with you on Eucharist, I simply clarified WHAT THE SOURCE of LIFE is. It is NOT DOING the Eucharist, but RATHER, IT IS JESUS CHRIST WHO IS THE SOURCE. Those who FOLLOW HIM, THE SOURCE, DO THE Eucharist, ALSO KNOWN AS THE COMMUNION. I rather call it the communion because it is the word used in the scripture and the Eucharist is the word used by the catholic church.

Sir....you are playing with words. The Eucharist IS Jesus. When I receive Him in the Eucharist, He forgives my sins, unites to me, and strengthens me by His presence in my body. What you appear to be doing is dancing around the idea that having faith is communion.

No...communion is communion. The Bible uses the analogy of marriage (Christ the divine Bridegroom, we the Bride) to speak of our relationship together. What Protestantism is like is two married people sitting in their living room, staring at their wedding certificate (Bible) and saying "Yes, we are married."

What the Catholic faith is like is those two going into the privacy of their bedroom and becoming truly "one flesh" and thus sharing intimately in their love.

BIG difference!
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,999
2,485
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟558,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
No, that is where you are mistaken. Jesus Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father, and he doesnt daily come down at the taking of the communion.

"Don't cling to me," Jesus said, "for I haven't yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (John 20:17)

That is ridiculous. Show me in scripture where that is true. Again, the communion is a COMMAND AND IT IS A SYMBOL that those who follow him must do. But it is not the source of salvation, Jesus Christ is. By you doing the communion, its not going to save you. In fact, the opposite will happen, judgment upon you, if you are not worthy. There is something else of greater importance than doing the communion. It is receiving the Spirit. When you are born of God THEN ARE YOU WORTHY to take the communion.

Well, I certainly don't disagree with that last statement, but let's draw it out a bit....since the Eucharist is also the Covenant Meal of restoration in the New Covenant, it is the sacrificial meal which properly comes after we make confession of our sins. We cleanse our hearts by repentance and then the Blood of Christ washes and renews us in our relationship.

The only "unworthy" reception is that of coming forward in a state of mortal sin, which is a breaking of the Covenant of God with Christ and being in a state of separation from Him. Good confession remedies this also.

If you study the Covenant of God, you will find out why I converted to the Catholic faith after 25 years a Protestant.
 
Upvote 0

Aelred of Rievaulx

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2015
1,398
606
✟12,231.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
No, that is where you are mistaken. Jesus Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father, and he doesnt daily come down at the taking of the communion.

"Don't cling to me," Jesus said, "for I haven't yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (John 20:17)

That is ridiculous. Show me in scripture where that is true. Again, the communion is a COMMAND AND IT IS A SYMBOL that those who follow him must do. But it is not the source of salvation, Jesus Christ is. By you doing the communion, its not going to save you. In fact, the opposite will happen, judgment upon you, if you are not worthy. There is something else of greater importance than doing the communion. It is receiving the Spirit. When you are born of God THEN ARE YOU WORTHY to take the communion.
Christ said "Wherever two or more are gathered there I am". The very Parousia itself was (and is) understood within the context of the Eucharist. The biblical texts themselves come out of the Temple religion of ancient Judaism and properly understood are in direct continuity within this ritual and liturgical context. There's very much direct continuity within the ancient Temple Judaism and the highly sacramentalised Christianities which developed in the second and third centuries CE and have become the Catholic Church the Orthodox Catholic Church and the various Oriental Churches, this is what we understand to be apostolicity - the direct continuity. Apostolicity is more than simply a progeny of investiture, it is the Eucharist celebrated as a timeless feast.

It is the lens you bring to the bible which has fundamentally spurred these weird interpretations and I don't even think you are conscious of them. I challenge you to find instance in the early Church wherein texts were read in the same manner as you are reading them today.
 
Upvote 0

cgaviria

Well-Known Member
Nov 23, 2015
1,854
184
37
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Visit site
✟23,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Christ said "Wherever two or more are gathered there I am". The very Parousia itself was (and is) understood within the context of the Eucharist. The biblical texts themselves come out of the Temple religion of ancient Judaism and properly understood are in direct continuity within this ritual and liturgical context. There's very much direct continuity within the ancient Temple Judaism and the highly sacramentalised Christianities which developed in the second and third centuries CE and have become the Catholic Church the Orthodox Catholic Church and the various Oriental Churches, this is what we understand to be apostolicity - the direct continuity. Apostolicity is more than simply a progeny of investiture, it is the Eucharist celebrated as a timeless feast.

It is the lens you bring to the bible which has fundamentally spurred these weird interpretations and I don't even think you are conscious of them. I challenge you to find instance in the early Church wherein texts were read in the same manner as you are reading them today.

Absolutely, he would be there spiritually. Not literally. Here is a prime example of figurative vs literal interpretation. Jesus Christ will not return onto the earth until his second coming. If he were already present on the earth daily, what would be the point of a second coming? You're putting too much emphasis on the communion when there are more important things on hand which are things concerning receiving the Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Aelred of Rievaulx

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2015
1,398
606
✟12,231.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Absolutely, he would be there spiritually. Not literally.
So spiritual things aren't literal things?
If he were already present on the earth daily, what would be the point of a second coming?
It is his "second coming" as I said: every Eucharist is the Parousia.
You're putting too much emphasis on the communion when there are more important things on hand which are things concerning receiving the Spirit.
So which is it? Are spirits real or not? Are spiritual things figurative?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

cgaviria

Well-Known Member
Nov 23, 2015
1,854
184
37
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Visit site
✟23,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
So spiritual things aren't literal things?

It is his "second coming" as I said: every Eucharist is the Parousia.

So which is it? Are spirits real or not? Are spiritual things figurative?

Spiritual things are figurative, but then there are also literal things as well. Look what Paul says here,

For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ. (Colossians 2:5 ESV)

He wasn't with them LITERALLY with his body, he was with them SPIRTUALLY. The same with Jesus Christ and those who partake in his communion. He is there spiritually, but not LITERALLY. He is LITERALLY at the right hand of the Father right now.
 
Upvote 0

cgaviria

Well-Known Member
Nov 23, 2015
1,854
184
37
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Visit site
✟23,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
It is his "second coming" as I said: every Eucharist is the Parousia.

The second coming is LITERAL. If he doesn't come, then the dead wouldn't be raised, because its at his second coming that the dead are raised. And if the dead aren't raised, then whats the point of following after him, if you remain dead?
 
Upvote 0

Aelred of Rievaulx

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2015
1,398
606
✟12,231.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Spiritual things are figurative, but then there are also literal things as well. Look what Paul says here,

For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ. (Colossians 2:5 ESV)

He wasn't with them LITERALLY with his body, he was with them SPIRTUALLY. The same with Jesus Christ and those who partake in his communion. He is there spiritually, but not LITERALLY. He is LITERALLY at the right hand of the Father right now.
I think St Paul was probably prone to mystical experiences. He does describe some of them, perhaps this is an experience of bilocation.

I didn't think you'd say that spiritual things were figurative, but it makes sense, most fundamentalist Christians are basically mirror images of modernity...
 
Upvote 0

Aelred of Rievaulx

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2015
1,398
606
✟12,231.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
The second coming is LITERAL. If he doesn't come, then the dead wouldn't be raised, because its at his second coming that the dead are raised. And if the dead aren't raised, then whats the point of following after him, if you remain dead?
I agree. The second coming is literal. Every Eucharist is literally the Parousia.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

cgaviria

Well-Known Member
Nov 23, 2015
1,854
184
37
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Visit site
✟23,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I think St Paul was probably prone to mystical experiences. He does describe some of them, perhaps this is an experience of bilocation.

I didn't think you'd say that spiritual things were figurative, but it makes sense, most fundamentalist Christians are basically mirror images of modernity...

You have to understand what spiritual means. Take for example any prophecy in the old testament, like one in Daniel,

The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it. (Daniel 7:4)

This is talking about one of the past great empires. It didn't mean that the empire had lions, or had eagles. It is merely something SPIRITUAL, or FIGURATIVE, to DESCRIBE something REAL in this instance.

In Paul's assertion that he was them spiritually, he wasn't saying he was translocating there, thats absurd. He was merely just stating that he was there SPIRTUALLY, FIGURATIVELY. It's like a husband saying to a spouse, "I carry you in my heart." Its figurative.
 
Upvote 0