Is Paul's issue sin or the law?

BukiRob · Nov 15, 2015

bugkiller said:
One of the issues here is whether sin is only and always strictly violating the law.

How can this bee when the law was added as Gal 3 says?

How can this be when Moses says the law wasn't given to Abraham?

Now the Bible also says the law was until the Seed (Jesus) should come. Doesn't that mean the law's jurisdiction is past?

John says the law came by Moses and grace and truth came by Jesus. (JN 1:17) This is a contrast between the law and grace. It isn't saying we got grace because of the law. Whatever John was talking about didn't exist prior to the coming of Jesus or some one had already brought grace and truth. Who was this?

bugkiller

Where does Moche say the law wasn't given to Abraham? You completely misquote Paul in Romans. 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
Indeed in Gen G-d declared Abraham righteous BY FAITH because he BELIEVED G-d.

But NO WHERE does Paul or Moses for that matter say that Abraham did not have the law.

Particularly when G-d himself states plainly that HE DID .... Gen 26:5
because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

You fail to even see what is right in the text brother.... John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Yeshua as Messiah IS the Torah become flesh... when it says the WORD became flesh... the obvious question is what word? What Word existed at the time of the writing of this gospel. Only 1 word existed and that is TORAH.

There is this mistaken belief that Torah is harsh and unmerciful and that is simply not true. It is called WISDOM. It is called the Way in which one should go, it is called LIGHT and a lamp to our feet directing our path. It is called TRUTH and LIFE. Honor, length of days are found in her... it is a TREE OF LIFE to those who take hold of it and ALL of its ways are PLEASENTNESS

bugkiller · Nov 16, 2015

BukiRob said:
Where does Moche say the law wasn't given to Abraham? You completely misquote Paul in Romans. 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

How do you read Deut 5:1-3?

5 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

3 The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Abraham was never an Israelite.

In your quote from Rom 4 it says was not through the law. It also says those of the law aren't heirs. IOW the heirs are those of faith.

Click to expand...

Indeed in Gen G-d declared Abraham righteous BY FAITH because he BELIEVED G-d.

But NO WHERE does Paul or Moses for that matter say that Abraham did not have the law.

Who is Abraham if he isn't included in the fathers in Deut 5:3?

Paul says the law was added in Gal 3:17-19.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Does Paul a Jew and scholar of the law having no better or equal Jew not know? Is Paul lying? Doesn't the above passage agree with Deut 5 quoted above?

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Particularly when G-d himself states plainly that HE DID .... Gen 26:5
because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

Where does Gen 26:5 say Abraham kept the law when Moses says it was never given to him?

Is your hypothesis based on abusing words taken out of context? The Bible clearly and plainly states something different than what you're trying to promote turning the Bible into an unreliable source of truth for it is contradictory the way you present it.

Click to expand...

You fail to even see what is right in the text brother.... John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

First you have no authority nor permission to call and appeal to me on intimate terms calling me brother.

Second you continue to dismiss the statement you quoted above from v 17. It clearly indicates Jesus didn't give nor bring the law. The verse is a comparative statement showing Moses and Jesus as doing different things. It doesn't say Jesus brought or gave the law.

Click to expand...

Yeshua as Messiah IS the Torah become flesh... when it says the WORD became flesh... the obvious question is what word? What Word existed at the time of the writing of this gospel. Only 1 word existed and that is TORAH.

There is no place the Bible indicates Jesus is the law as you are promoting. The word Torah is being abused to deceive.

Click to expand...

There is this mistaken belief that Torah is harsh and unmerciful and that is simply not true. It is called WISDOM. It is called the Way in which one should go, it is called LIGHT and a lamp to our feet directing our path. It is called TRUTH and LIFE. Honor, length of days are found in her... it is a TREE OF LIFE to those who take hold of it and ALL of its ways are PLEASENTNESS

Did you forget about the man stoned for picking up sticks? Explain the benevolence of the law?

bugkiller

bugkiller · Nov 16, 2015

Open Heart said:
We must respond to grace with obedience. We don't get a free ride to sin. Shall we sin that grace may abound? Romans 6:1 No, we must persevere until the end to be saved. Matthew 10:22

Where does Romans tell us to keep the law?

bugkiller

BukiRob · Nov 16, 2015

bugkiller said:
Did you forget about the man stoned for picking up sticks? Explain the benevolence of the law?

bugkiller

How about reading scripture in context?

What is said immediately preceding and what is said immediately after is always a best practice when something seems harsh, confusing or out of place.

In the case of Numbers 15 which is the incident of which you smugly reply about, we see immediately preceding the account in question we find

Num 15:30-31 30 ‘But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’”

Several things are going on here.... first the ENTIRE assembly had seen G-d move in a first hand way... the Pillar of Fire and the Cloud. Second, this was during the 40 year wandering where manna from heaven (along with quail) was given each day for food. 3 It is the ASSEMBLY who bring this man to Moses so the entire assembly knew, as did the man, this was wrong. 4 This man was acting in open rebellion. This wasn't a sin of omission or misunderstanding error. It wasn't a sin of weakness... this was an open act of absolute abject defiance towards G-d.

bugkiller · Nov 16, 2015

BukiRob said:
How about reading scripture in context?

What is said immediately preceding and what is said immediately after is always a best practice when something seems harsh, confusing or out of place.

In the case of Numbers 15 which is the incident of which you smugly reply about, we see immediately preceding the account in question we find

Num 15:30-31 30 ‘But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’”

Several things are going on here.... first the ENTIRE assembly had seen G-d move in a first hand way... the Pillar of Fire and the Cloud. Second, this was during the 40 year wandering where manna from heaven (along with quail) was given each day for food. 3 It is the ASSEMBLY who bring this man to Moses so the entire assembly knew, as did the man, this was wrong. 4 This man was acting in open rebellion. This wasn't a sin of omission or misunderstanding error. It wasn't a sin of weakness... this was an open act of absolute abject defiance towards G-d.

So answer my question, please.

bugkiller

BukiRob · Nov 16, 2015

bugkiller said:
So answer my question, please.

bugkiller

I did. Try actually reading

Open Heart · Nov 16, 2015

bugkiller said:
Where does Romans tell us to keep the law?

bugkiller

The same Paul that wrote Romans also wrote: " Keeping God's commands is what counts." 1 Corinthians 7:19

bugkiller · Nov 24, 2015

BukiRob said:
How about reading scripture in context?

What is said immediately preceding and what is said immediately after is always a best practice when something seems harsh, confusing or out of place.

In the case of Numbers 15 which is the incident of which you smugly reply about, we see immediately preceding the account in question we find

Num 15:30-31 30 ‘But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’”

Several things are going on here.... first the ENTIRE assembly had seen G-d move in a first hand way... the Pillar of Fire and the Cloud. Second, this was during the 40 year wandering where manna from heaven (along with quail) was given each day for food. 3 It is the ASSEMBLY who bring this man to Moses so the entire assembly knew, as did the man, this was wrong. 4 This man was acting in open rebellion. This wasn't a sin of omission or misunderstanding error. It wasn't a sin of weakness... this was an open act of absolute abject defiance towards G-d.

So you must be saying the law is benevolent and forgiving. I see neither. Death doesn't seem to be benevolent or forgiving to me.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Nov 24, 2015

BukiRob said:
I did. Try actually reading

Just where did you or the Bible say or show benevolence in this case concerning the law?

bugkiller

bugkiller · Nov 24, 2015

Open Heart said:
The same Paul that wrote Romans also wrote: " Keeping God's commands is what counts." 1 Corinthians 7:19

Yeppers the cross means nothing as well as anything else Paul says. Keeping God's commands isn't the same as keeping the law. Paul says - now we are delivered from the law. God's current command to us isn't to keep the law. First God's prophets said there would be a new covenant. This means an old covenant will be replaced. Jesus (God) clearly is quoted in 3 Gospels saying "this is the new testament (covenant)."

bugkiller

BukiRob · Nov 24, 2015

bugkiller said:
Yeppers the cross means nothing as well as anything else Paul says. Keeping God's commands isn't the same as keeping the law. Paul says - now we are delivered from the law. God's current command to us isn't to keep the law. First God's prophets said there would be a new covenant. This means an old covenant will be replaced. Jesus (God) clearly is quoted in 3 Gospels saying "this is the new testament (covenant)."

bugkiller

How can one be delivered from something that scripture declares is HOLY? Scripture says that the law is LIFE, a LIGHT directing our path in the WAY in which we should go? It is called WISDOM, discretion, length of days are found in it. Honor is granted by it... it is called the TREE OF LIFE.....

One is NOT delivered from the law... Paul is speaking of being delivered from the consequences of the law. Your wages, mine and every other persons wage under the law have been paid in full by Messiah.

The new covenant is the one written on the hearts and in the minds of the followers....

BobRyan · Nov 25, 2015

bugkiller said:
One of the issues here is whether sin is only and always strictly violating the law.

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"
Romans 4 "Where there is no LAW there is no SIN"
Romans 7 " 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
Romans 3 "19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

BobRyan · Nov 25, 2015

Open Heart said:
If you aren't keeping the Law (Mosaic Law for Jews, Natural Law for Gentiles) then it means you are sinning. That breaks down your relationship with God.

Luke 16 "if they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead"

bbbbbbb · Nov 25, 2015

BobRyan said:
Luke 16 "if they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead"

Who are "they"?

bugkiller · Nov 28, 2015

BukiRob said:
How can one be delivered from something that scripture declares is HOLY? Scripture says that the law is LIFE, a LIGHT directing our path in the WAY in which we should go? It is called WISDOM, discretion, length of days are found in it. Honor is granted by it... it is called the TREE OF LIFE.....

One is NOT delivered from the law... Paul is speaking of being delivered from the consequences of the law. Your wages, mine and every other persons wage under the law have been paid in full by Messiah.

The new covenant is the one written on the hearts and in the minds of the followers....

You tell me how one can be delivered from something called holy and good. You seem to be saying Roman 7:6 is a lie. You're adding things to what Paul is saying to invalidate the truth and support your belief system. You fail to take into account the fact there is a new covenant promised by God's prophets and stated by Jesus to be currently in effect. I can present evidence from the old transcripts (Hebrew/Chaldee and Greek) to prove the point. So you discount (disclaim the truth) the prophets, Jesus as presented in the Gospels as well as Paul.

No Jesus didn't pay any wages. The law brought the death. Jesus promised and gave a gift. The law isn't called the TREE OF LIFE. Jesus is the Tree of Life. The law is the ministration of death, therefore its impossible to be the TREE OF LIFE.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Nov 28, 2015

BobRyan said:
1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"
Romans 4 "Where there is no LAW there is no SIN"
Romans 7 " 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
Romans 3 "19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Just more partial quotes to twist God's Word to support your unsupportable doctrine.

Yes the law speaks to those under the law as your quote states. The Christian isn't under the law as you intend for us to believe. There is no salvation (eternal life) under the law. Salvation only comes through Jesus according to the Gospels.

All the passages have been quoted time and time again for you. You reject the prophets, the Gospels and the detested Paul even though you quote him.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Nov 28, 2015

BobRyan said:
Luke 16 "if they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead"

Maybe you should listen to the quoted Jesus from the Gospels.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Nov 28, 2015

bbbbbbb said:
Who are "they"?

Maybe "they" could be those who refuse to listen to the words of Jesus.

bugkiller

BukiRob · Nov 29, 2015

bugkiller said:
You tell me how one can be delivered from something called holy and good. You seem to be saying Roman 7:6 is a lie. You're adding things to what Paul is saying to invalidate the truth and support your belief system. You fail to take into account the fact there is a new covenant promised by God's prophets and stated by Jesus to be currently in effect. I can present evidence from the old transcripts (Hebrew/Chaldee and Greek) to prove the point. So you discount (disclaim the truth) the prophets, Jesus as presented in the Gospels as well as Paul.

No Jesus didn't pay any wages. The law brought the death. Jesus promised and gave a gift. The law isn't called the TREE OF LIFE. Jesus is the Tree of Life. The law is the ministration of death, therefore its impossible to be the TREE OF LIFE.

bugkiller

LOL who do you think Yeshua is? Yeshua is the Torah become Flesh.

bugkiller · Dec 1, 2015

BukiRob said:
LOL who do you think Yeshua is? Yeshua is the Torah become Flesh.

Beats me what you're trying to say.

I gather you don't accept Romans as God's word.

Also you seem to reject the Gospel of John.

bugkiller

Is Paul's issue sin or the law?

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