Liturgical Trends

everbecoming2007

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I was wondering if anyone knows if bizarre or very unattractive liturgies are common in some places in the ECUSA? I ask about this because I have personally not seen anything like that but I have in another denominations. I know there are controversies over the new prayer book and Rite II and so on, but I have personally never witnessed anything in the Episcopal Church that simply made my skin crawl. My priest did tell me about a clown mass in an ECUSA parish near him in San Francisco but I don't know how common stuff like that is. It's something I would like to be aware of for my own good.

I am hoping that strange liturgies like this will simply die out and go away because I don't see what good they're doing anyone. I don't mean contemporary liturgies in general, just the really weird out there stuff. I was visiting a chapel in another denomination I had been a frequent attender at for a weekly Wednesday Eucharist and the interim just decided she was going to jettison the entire liturgy and create her own. It was so chaotic no one knew what to do during the service including the minister at some points and it all became so out there I started hysterically laughing through the service and couldn't stop. It was more neo-pagan than Christian. I'm not sure it was actually a Eucharist -- it was more about the body of the earth than Jesus. And for all this none of those poor parishioners wanted any of this. They were all senior citizens and at least one of them was openly upset.

The whole point of going to the service that week was that my parish wasn't having a Wednesday Eucharist that day. My grandmother had just died and I wanted to pray for her during the intercessions. But since the whole service was abandoned there were no such prayers. I thought this was all just a terrible fluke and came back next week and she had made up a whole new liturgy for that day too! It was almost as terrible as the first one! Eventually I heard they obtained a new minister so I visited again and she had gone back to the usual liturgy everyone had wanted to begin with.

I get extremely upset with priests or ministers who come into parishes and want to do away with their liturgy and culture to impose their own arbitrary preferences. My parish's new priest has these tendencies but he hasn't been able to go too far with it. Still he wouldn't have invented a whole new liturgy of his own.

Have you ever seen anything bizarre like this? Do you think this will just die out? I think these kinds of experiments must have started in the '60s and '70s. It's just really hard for me to believe anyone wants a service like this. It seems to me like clergy simply impose it.
 
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Albion

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The oddest liturgy I personally have experienced involved the use of a folding card table instead of the altar (although it was a beautiful Gothic church), upon which were placed cartoons from the "Peanuts" comic strip. But I can't remember what the point of it all was supposed to be. However, some Episcopal churches have hosted nudist masses, Buddhist, etc. masses, and worship services in which spice cake and champagne were substituted for the bread and wine. You're right that the high water mark for such doings seems to have been the 1960s and 70s.
 
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everbecoming2007

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The oddest liturgy I personally have experienced involved the use of a folding card table instead of the altar (although it was a beautiful Gothic church), upon which were placed cartoons from the "Peanuts" comic strip. But I can't remember what the point of it all was supposed to be. However, some Episcopal churches have hosted nudist masses, Buddhist, etc. masses, and worship services in which spice cake and champagne were substituted for the bread and wine. You're right that the high water mark for such doings seems to have been the 1960s and 70s.

Nudist masses? Spice cake? That is strange. I think I read about the spice cake one somewhere, but never about nudist masses. I usually hear about people coming to the Episcopal Church to avoid bad liturgy elsewhere, but much of this may depend on geography. I've seen some contemporary services that weren't at all my preference, yet they weren't weird and I didn't feel as though I should not receive the Eucharist in those settings. However I've googled some church websites in San Francisco and some other places and I have heard of some strange liturgies going on there in some ECUSA parishes.
 
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SteveCaruso

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The only really strange liturgy I've ever come across -- years ago -- was a Fluxus mass which included some rather rude and disgusting things that I will not make mention of here. Then again, the group that performed it was an art troupe, not a church... but it was hosted in the Rutgers University Kirkpatrick Chapel. :-/

My biggest worry, though, is now that "Rite 3" (An Order for Celebrating the Holy Eucharist, p.400 in the BCP) has been approved for use as a primary form of worship on Sunday at the last General Convention, we may see a lot more departure from Common Prayer. It's pretty much a choose-your-own-adventure and fill-in-the-blank Eucharist with no Creed. I was sincerely saddened by this resolution's passing.
 
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everbecoming2007

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The only really strange liturgy I've ever come across -- years ago -- was a Fluxus mass which included some rather rude and disgusting things that I will not make mention of here. Then again, the group that performed it was an art troupe, not a church... but it was hosted in the Rutgers University Kirkpatrick Chapel. :-/

My biggest worry, though, is now that "Rite 3" (An Order for Celebrating the Holy Eucharist, p.400 in the BCP) has been approved for use as a primary form of worship on Sunday at the last General Convention, we may see a lot more departure from Common Prayer. It's pretty much a choose-your-own-adventure and fill-in-the-blank Eucharist with no Creed. I was sincerely saddened by this resolution's passing.

The authorization of Rite III as a primary service escaped my attention. Oh, that is really bad news I think. From what I've seen of experimental liturgies I think they are really, really bad.
 
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Albion

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Albion said:
The oddest liturgy I personally have experienced involved the use of a folding card table instead of the altar (although it was a beautiful Gothic church), upon which were placed cartoons from the "Peanuts" comic strip...However, some Episcopal churches have hosted nudist masses, Buddhist, etc. masses, and worship services in which spice cake and champagne were substituted for the bread and wine. You're right that the high water mark for such doings seems to have been the 1960s and 70s.

Nudist masses? Spice cake? That is strange. I think I read about the spice cake one somewhere, but never about nudist masses. I usually hear about people coming to the Episcopal Church to avoid bad liturgy elsewhere, but much of this may depend on geography. I've seen some contemporary services that weren't at all my preference, yet they weren't weird and I didn't feel as though I should not receive the Eucharist in those settings. However I've googled some church websites in San Francisco and some other places and I have heard of some strange liturgies going on there in some ECUSA parishes.

Looks like I spoke too soon about the 1960s and 70s being the highwater mark of such stuff.

http://www.virtueonline.org/washing...rrys-installation-desolation-episcopal-church
 
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graceandpeace

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Hearing about strange experimentations nearly scared me off from ever visiting TEC. However, my experience across the board with many parishes out here is while there are some normal variations (I.e. How much is sung vs spoken), no serious digressions have come to my attention, even in one of the more "progressive" parishes.

There is one church I'm visiting that is much closer to home compared to my normal place. They do have a blended traditional-contemporary experimental liturgy option, which seemed from what I've read & from visiting it once to involve using other Anglican prayer books instead of TEC's BCP - so, not for me, I'll stick with their regular service option. The conflict for me, however, is the kids sermon & such are part of this other service rather than the regular service. Something I am weighing for sure.
 
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everbecoming2007

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Hearing about strange experimentations nearly scared me off from ever visiting TEC. However, my experience across the board with many parishes out here is while there are some normal variations (I.e. How much is sung vs spoken), no serious digressions have come to my attention, even in one of the more "progressive" parishes.

There is one church I'm visiting that is much closer to home compared to my normal place. They do have a blended traditional-contemporary experimental liturgy option, which seemed from what I've read & from visiting it once to involve using other Anglican prayer books instead of TEC's BCP - so, not for me, I'll stick with their regular service option. The conflict for me, however, is the kids sermon & such are part of this other service rather than the regular service. Something I am weighing for sure.

Hmm, I wonder what would be different about a kid's service? I don't have any children so I've never really had to think about it. My guess is that I'd take them to the regular liturgy. I do really like that infants and children may receive the Eucharist in our parishes. That makes the most sense to me. Quite a few young children in my parish commune and seem to value the participation although the liturgy is not designed to accommodate children in any different way than any other person.
 
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Albion

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Hmm, I wonder what would be different about a kid's service? I don't have any children so I've never really had to think about it. My guess is that I'd take them to the regular liturgy. I do really like that infants and children may receive the Eucharist in our parishes. That makes the most sense to me. Quite a few young children in my parish commune and seem to value the participation although the liturgy is not designed to accommodate children in any different way than any other person.

The point there was, I thought, more specific ("The conflict for me, however, is the kids sermon & such are part of this other service rather than the regular service.").

This, I took to be a reference to a practice that is very common among Methodists but can also be found among Episcopalians. That is to have a normal liturgy BUT insert a section in which the children come forth to the communion rail, sit around on the floor, and the priest delivers a "children's sermon" on some simplistic subject while sitting among them. Ten minutes later, they're dismissed to return to the pews with their parents and the service continues as always. I, too, feel that this addition is a bit off-beat.
 
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graceandpeace

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Hmm, I wonder what would be different about a kid's service? I don't have any children so I've never really had to think about it. My guess is that I'd take them to the regular liturgy. I do really like that infants and children may receive the Eucharist in our parishes. That makes the most sense to me. Quite a few young children in my parish commune and seem to value the participation although the liturgy is not designed to accommodate children in any different way than any other person.

The point there was, I thought, more specific ("The conflict for me, however, is the kids sermon & such are part of this other service rather than the regular service.").

This, I took to be a reference to a practice that is very common among Methodists but can also be found among Episcopalians. That is to have a normal liturgy BUT insert a section in which the children come forth to the communion rail, sit around on the floor, and the priest delivers a "children's sermon" on some simplistic subject while sitting among them. Ten minutes later, they're dismissed to return to the pews with their parents and the service continues as always. I, too, feel that this addition is a bit off-beat.

Albion is right.

My current parish offers a separate children's liturgy, & kids join parents around the passing of the peace in the normal liturgy.

In this parish I'm visiting, there is no separate children's liturgy. Instead, they offer a children's sermon followed by an activity outside of the hall during the adult sermon, before kids rejoin parents. However, my quandary is that the options for kids are exclusive to this contemporary-experimental-using multiple prayer books liturgy. In my visit, I didn't find the service "wrong," just not for me.

So basically, if I did choose to switch to this closer parish, my kids would attend Sunday school but then come to the regular liturgy with me - which is okay, but difficult given their younger ages. This is what I'm weighing, really. The convenience of the closer parish is appealing, but I prefer the set up for kids at our current parish. Need to pray for sure.

Kids do appreciate taking communion, mine look forward to it every week. It's just tough for their young patience to make it through the entire adult/regular liturgy.
 
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Yardstick

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Kids do appreciate taking communion, mine look forward to it every week. It's just tough for their young patience to make it through the entire adult/regular liturgy.
This is one area I think the Eastern Orthodox have down. With no pews, you don't have to worry so much about keeping kids sitting still and quiet!
 
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Wgw

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The only really strange liturgy I've ever come across -- years ago -- was a Fluxus mass which included some rather rude and disgusting things that I will not make mention of here. Then again, the group that performed it was an art troupe, not a church... but it was hosted in the Rutgers University Kirkpatrick Chapel. :-/

My biggest worry, though, is now that "Rite 3" (An Order for Celebrating the Holy Eucharist, p.400 in the BCP) has been approved for use as a primary form of worship on Sunday at the last General Convention, we may see a lot more departure from Common Prayer. It's pretty much a choose-your-own-adventure and fill-in-the-blank Eucharist with no Creed. I was sincerely saddened by this resolution's passing.

As an interesting aside, I know of an ECUSA parish that used Rite 3 to serve the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. So whereas it does lend itself to potential abuse, one can use it to serve various ancient liturgies not in the BCP with minor modifications; for example I suppose you could serve a Syriac Orthodox Qurbono Qadisho with some tweaking.

I myself wish/hope that rather than representing a sort of watered down 79 BCP or worse, the new American BCP might include a broader range of authentic anaphorae. By authentic, I of course mean those with some established anicent use, for example, those from the liturgies of St. Basil, Ss. Addai and Mari, and what have you, as opposed to certain contrived contemporary anaphorae.

I myself did a study on an experimental BCP with such a system in place which would be usable either by Anglicans or Western-Rite EOs which I might share at some point. I adapted the anaphorae in question into the framework of the eucharist from the 1928 Deposited Book (C of E).
 
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Wgw

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This is one area I think the Eastern Orthodox have down. With no pews, you don't have to worry so much about keeping kids sitting still and quiet!

Some of our parishes have pews (EO and OO). Freestanding seats are more common.
 
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Shane R

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This, I took to be a reference to a practice that is very common among Methodists but can also be found among Episcopalians. That is to have a normal liturgy BUT insert a section in which the children come forth to the communion rail, sit around on the floor, and the priest delivers a "children's sermon" on some simplistic subject while sitting among them. Ten minutes later, they're dismissed to return to the pews with their parents and the service continues as always. I, too, feel that this addition is a bit off-beat.
The LCMS is in love with the children's sermon too. It is one of the factors that first caused me to investigate continuing Anglicanism. I have never seen a continuing parish offer a children's sermon and I certainly have no intention of incorporating it after my ordination. I would relish the opportunity to revise one of the ancient eastern liturgies for use on high feast days but I am committed to the principle of 'common prayer'.
 
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Wgw

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The LCMS is in love with the children's sermon too. It is one of the factors that first caused me to investigate continuing Anglicanism. I have never seen a continuing parish offer a children's sermon and I certainly have no intention of incorporating it after my ordination. I would relish the opportunity to revise one of the ancient eastern liturgies for use on high feast days but I am committed to the principle of 'common prayer'.

I believe you can have common prayer with different anaphoras. Now granted, this might be an Oriental Orthodox perspective, given that the Copts have three, the Ethiopians, fourteen, and the Syriacs, more than eighty (!), but considering we are all in communion, considering that the Roman Catholics also have a large number owing both to the Eastern rites and also to the less common Western rites (Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Braga, Dominican, Carthusian, to name a few), and considering the lack of standardization between various Anglican churches, for example, the historic difference between the English and Scottish BCPs, I do believe that you can "get away" with having multiple anaphoras.

That said, I have encountered Anglican voices to the contrary and I respect those voices even though I do not personally agree. I think common prayer exists between all of the various apostolic churches on a purely textual basis (as opposed to the more agreeable ecumenical objective of actual Eucharistic communion), in that all anciently used Eucharistic liturgies have common elements in the form of the institution narrative, the "sanctus" and certain other shared elements. Even where the rites are quite dramatically different (Coptic vs. Roman, for example), one can perceive commonality. Where I fear this commonality is lost is when people radically alter the liturgy for various reasons, which Cranmer to his credit did not do (the 1552 BCP can IMO be regarded as an elegant simplification of the very complex pre-Tridentine liturgical situation in England).

As an amusing aside, there is an extremely abbreviated version of the Syriac Orthodox Shimo, or horologion/breviary (of sorts) which I have seen referred to as "The Book of Common Prayer."
 
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Shane R

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Wgw, when I think of 'common prayer', I think of the ability of the uneducated but devoted layman to step into a service and, from memory, know where the church is at in the liturgy and what the rest of the service will look like. In the first Anglican parish I worshiped at, the oldest member was in her early 80's, brought her prayer book every week, and never opened it except for the collect and the readings because she had long since memorized the whole liturgy. To me, that is the pinnacle of common prayer.
 
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Wgw

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Wgw, when I think of 'common prayer', I think of the ability of the uneducated but devoted layman to step into a service and, from memory, know where the church is at in the liturgy and what the rest of the service will look like. In the first Anglican parish I worshiped at, the oldest member was in her early 80's, brought her prayer book every week, and never opened it except for the collect and the readings because she had long since memorized the whole liturgy. To me, that is the pinnacle of common prayer.

On that point; I highly agree. What I did in the hypothetical BCP based service was to insert the text of the various anaphorae into the structure of the anaphora from th 1928 BCP, so that the variable portions existed roughly, if memory serves, in an area equivalent to that covered by eucharistic prayers A, B and C in the '79 American BCP, following in each case the liturgical structure of the Deposited Book.

There are divergent structures between rites; most notably, the Alexandrian Rite and East Syriac Rite differ sharply from the Antiochene/Byzantine/Romn Rite in certain aspects of organization. So the ancient Divine Liturgy of St. Mark (St. Cyril) has two epicleses, whereas the "Hallowing of Ss. Addai and Mari" lacks an institution narrative (in the Assyrian use; the Chaldean and Malabar Catholics insert one) per se (or rather wraps it into the epiclesis). These variations would interfere greatly with interoperability, but what one can do is essemtially reorganize these services to fit an alternate pattern.
 
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