Turkey downs Russian warplane near Syria border

PatrickT said:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-st...hy-are-they-no-subjected-to-sanctions/5403310

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OK. Any proof or evidence from a legitimate site? Global Research has been described as "a magnet for radicals, fringe figures and wacko elements."

PatrickT said:

All groups oppossig Assad in Syria are ISIS. Its that easy.

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Always easier to see things in black and white terms whether true or not.

But i simply think USA created and funds ISIS.

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Utter nonsense.

How else can you explain they grew this big?

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By robbing banks along the way. That, and selling oil from the areas they control.

PatrickT said:

You forgot to mention that turkey sponsors terrorism, ISIS and islamism.

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Not really. But whatever is bad for the Kurds is good for the Turks.

PatrickT said:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-st...hy-are-they-no-subjected-to-sanctions/5403310

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Be careful. Global Research is infamous for publishing unsubstantiated conspiracy theories. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch

smaneck said:

Two reasons, I think.

1. Baathists have always had a close relationship with Russia going back to the Cold War.
2. Russia has always taken upon itself the protection of the Christian community in the Middle East. In fact, that is what started the Crimean War. The Baath Party was started by a Christian and has always protected the Christian community.

Of course, there is a third reason which applies to almost everyone. Who is there that can replace Assad?
I suspect that after ISIS is destroyed there is really going to be only one solution for both Syria and Iraq and that is partition, much as I hate the thought. The alternative seems to be genocide.

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I agree that partition is the most viable long-term solution. However, judging from the Yugoslavia and Greater India examples, partition will also pay a horrendous toll in human life.

Mr.Stepanov said:

Russian marine that was sent to rescue downed pilots...killed on the way.

I can't comprehend the minds of these people. Are they deamon possesed??!

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I believe they are. I'm certain the ISIS leadership is. They are religious people who pray fervently multiple times daily for the will and power to do the evil they do. I suspect there are spirits who respond to their prayers.

smaneck said:

Always easier to see things in black and white terms whether true or not.



Utter nonsense.



By robbing banks along the way. That, and selling oil from the areas they control.

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Let's remember too that there has been a constantly replenished gang of about 20,000 young Sunni Islamic fighters that has been rolling around the Middle East since the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. This cloud of fighters loses members to attrition but continually picks up new young members from any and all of the various conflicts that have roiled without cessation in the area. ISIS consists of members from all of them: Chechnyans, Palestinians, Iraqis, et cetera.

The great problem is that those who have been fighting from their teens into their late 20s or thirties are men who have never known peace in their lives. They were never farmers or shopkeepers, and even when they occupy territory, they don't know how to allow peace to the people they've conquered. They will never become farmers or shopkeepers.

This is something US Army scholars have warned about for at least 20 years, having noted long ago that they saw the same names cropping up in battles all over the region. This is why it's frequently feasible to let a strong man instill a pax dictator long enough for a generation of males to get the feel of being a farmer or shopkeeper, and by all means avoid a situation in which an army of young men spend their lives as nothing but warriors.

Archivist said:

OK. Any proof or evidence from a legitimate site? Global Research has been described as "a magnet for radicals, fringe figures and wacko elements."

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Sort of like CF N&CE.

Archivist said:

OK. Any proof or evidence from a legitimate site? Global Research has been described as "a magnet for radicals, fringe figures and wacko elements."

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If USA support something you know its bad.

The most crucial thing now is to hold Assad in power, closer turkey out of the region and fight terrorism in syria. USA has nothing to say there. I´m glad germany prevented that heavy arms are delivered to syria and i´m even more glad that we yesterday back russia and voted against a full support for turkey.

I also strongly believe germany should leave NATO. Its not in our interest at all.

RDKirk said:

I agree that partition is the most viable long-term solution. However, judging from the Yugoslavia and Greater India examples, partition will also pay a horrendous toll in human life.

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Yes it will, but it may be the only alternative to genocide.

RDKirk said:

This is something US Army scholars have warned about for at least 20 years, having noted long ago that they saw the same names cropping up in battles all over the region. This is why it's frequently feasible to let a strong man instill a pax dictator long enough for a generation of males to get the feel of being a farmer or shopkeeper, and by all means avoid a situation in which an army of young men spend their lives as nothing but warriors.

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That hasn't worked out real well for us in the past. When they finally do throw out the dictator, we get the blame for installing him in the first place.

smaneck said:

That hasn't worked out real well for us in the past. When they finally do throw out the dictator, we get the blame for installing him in the first place.

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Unfortunately to say, it's worked better than practically everything else the US has done geopolitically in those areas that Europeans colonized and then left in their own messes after WWII.

Here is a question I've pondered for years: What has made India so unique in its reliable democracy --with so much demographically that militates against democratic stability--since the British left? My theory is that Hinduism supports their democracy. People who believe "what goes around comes around" are less likely to fall into the trap of "win the election and kill all your opponents" and more likely to wait for their turn on the next election.

Aldebaran said:

Your anti-American attitude is well-noted.
I hope you remember a time not too long ago when Germany a place known for doing some things that America had to come there to stop. Some guy named Adolph was in charge there at that time. It was your people who elected him.

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I was thinking the same thing--the nice people who murdered Anne Frank and millions of her fellow Jews, along with Roma, Masons, homosexuals and others.

Redac said:

That'd be a really bad idea on Putin's part, given Turkey's membership in NATO. Russia is probably capable of crippling the Turkish Air Force, but such an action would probably result in the invocation of Article 5.

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Oh can't we throw the Turks out of NATO. They were no help in Iraq, are ISIS's main source of revenue in exchange for oil, they just want to kill Kurds , get rid of Assad and assert a new economic Ottomanism over the region.

Obama has been encouraging them cause his main aim till recently was to prevent a Shia oil corridor from Iran through Iraq to Syria.

The net result is that IS are still there, hundreds of thousands of people are dead, there has been a genocide of Christians and other minority groups, and Germany is expecting a million refugees this year.

Putin is the only one doing anything that might actually stabilise the country and prevent the massacre of the final remnants of Christians there.

Why did the Turks shoot the plane down? it is Not clear at all it was in Turkish airspace to me?

Why did the Turks shoot the plane down? it is Not clear at all it was in Turkish airspace to me?

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The plane was in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds. That is a violation of Turkey's sovereign territory.

smaneck said:

Two reasons, I think.

1. Baathists have always had a close relationship with Russia going back to the Cold War.
2. Russia has always taken upon itself the protection of the Christian community in the Middle East. In fact, that is what started the Crimean War. The Baath Party was started by a Christian and has always protected the Christian community.

Of course, there is a third reason which applies to almost everyone. Who is there that can replace Assad?
I suspect that after ISIS is destroyed there is really going to be only one solution for both Syria and Iraq and that is partition, much as I hate the thought. The alternative seems to be genocide.

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There seems to be so many interconnecting pieces to situations like this that can complicate what otherwise may seem like a simple thing. If we go left, this happens. If right, this. There's always a consequence. Is this a situation where it's the lesser of evils that's considered?

Archivist said:

The plane was in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds. That is a violation of Turkey's sovereign territory.

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There are contradictory reports on that :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...15465/Turkey-shoots-down-Russia-jet-live.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925229

https://www.rt.com/news/323404-lavrov-syria-s24-turkey/

RDKirk said:

I agree that partition is the most viable long-term solution.

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Don't want to say "I told you so", but I've been saying this for some years now.

RDKirk said:

I agree that partition is the most viable long-term solution. However, judging from the Yugoslavia and Greater India examples, partition will also pay a horrendous toll in human life.

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Pakistan was not as radicalised as IS. Partition would grant sovereign status to the Caliphate of death and demons. Millions of people were displaced and many died in Indias partition. There were several wars between the states. One half of Syria would be under Assad and the other radicalised Sunnis who will support whatever nutjob Islamist death cult is on top this year. Better to have the West OF SYRIA dominate the East OF SYRIA and put a lid on it. Time to end the chaos.

In Iraq however giving the Kurds their own state seems a good idea. But not sure how the Sunni bit should be handled.