Age old issue: free will

Try stopping me from wanting to go the beach by shooting me in the leg. Got a thought bullet?

How does one be a Baptist and not believe in free will?

mikedsjr said:

...If your will is to go to the beach today, all I have to do is shoot you in the leg and your free will has been hampered. ...

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You are wrong with that. I would still want to go, but I probably couldn’t do what I freely want. There is nothing that you could do to my free will, but many things can be done so that I can’t do what my free will wants.

mikedsjr said:

I'm not going to bring any light to this topic. I just wanted clarity by those who believe in free will. To what extent is your defense of free will? I believe in free will of some form. But the issue seems to be God doesn't change our free will. I disagree. In fact, I can change your free will. If your will is to go to the beach today, all I have to do is shoot you in the leg and your free will has been hampered. So what extent do you believe God doesn't have the freedom to change your directions?

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"You can lead a horse to water,
but you can't make him drink.
But you can make darn sure,
he's thirsty when he gets there.

mikedsjr said:

So it isn't free. It's subject to other variables.

Marketing is a business that understands how to push the right buttons to make you believe you want something your free will would not have chosen on its own.

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My actions can be limited, but my will is not. If I want something, it is because I want, not because someone else wants.

mikedsjr said:

I'm not going to bring any light to this topic. I just wanted clarity by those who believe in free will. To what extent is your defense of free will? I believe in free will of some form. But the issue seems to be God doesn't change our free will. I disagree. In fact, I can change your free will. If your will is to go to the beach today, all I have to do is shoot you in the leg and your free will has been hampered. So what extent do you believe God doesn't have the freedom to change your directions?

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Ever heard of the phrase "If I only knew....." of course, if they only knew, they would have done differently... Therefore, we are not really in control, nor have free will. What controls us is a very ugly word called "ignorance".

Ignorance can make you do things you wouldn't do if only you knew, like little mistakes that later on lead to a huge problem, bad decisions, etc... Ignorance of facts, ignorance of the future (lack of foresight/gift of prophecy). And the deadly cycle of letting ignorance place you in perpetual ignorance.

So unless you know everything in the Universe in both the physical and spiritual/quantum realm, you aren't really making your own pure choices. Your choices will always be influenced by things which you do not know, by ignorance. Therefore we don't have free will nor in control. Ignorance is in control. We massacre each other in brutal warfare, cause mischief, exploit the poor (even without your knowledge), abuse your neighbor, torment/bully others, do so many wrong things, etc, etc....all because of ignorance.

DrBubbaLove said:

How does one be a Baptist and not believe in free will?

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there is a growing core of people in the SBC that are 5 point Calvinists - no free will.

timewerx said:

So unless you know everything in the Universe in both the physical and spiritual/quantum realm, you aren't really making your own pure choices. Your choices will always be influenced by things which you do not know, by ignorance. Therefore we don't have free will nor in control.

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Free will is not a matter of what information you do or don't have; or even if someone has been manipulated and deceived. It is a matter of WHO actually makes the decisions.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Free will is not a matter of what information you do or don't have; or even if someone has been manipulated and deceived. It is a matter of WHO actually makes the decisions.

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If you grew up in a cave, never gone out, never knew what the world outside looks like, could you even decide to go to school so you can get educated? Could you even get to the point to decide whether to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior or not?

Control information and you can control people. You can even make them believe they have free will and are self-aware!

Scary thought isn't it?

timewerx said:

f you grew up in a cave, never gone out, never knew what the world outside looks like, could you even decide to go to school so you can get educated? Could you even get to the point to decide whether to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior or not?
Control information and you can control people. You can even make them believe they have free will and are self-aware!
Scary thought isn't it?

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You still do not comprehend what free will and what it is not. Growing up in a cave does not impinge free will. Having God decide for me; before I ever existed; does impinge on my free will.

the very fact you said "...decide whether to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior," means you are operating in free will. Without free will there is either no decision or only the illusion of a decision.

mikedsjr said:

You don't believe people can change your actions?

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I don't. They can persuade you to change your actions or prevent you from acting but they cannot actually make you act without your compliance. Now there are many ways to persuade one to comply that almost no one would be immune to but what does that have to do with free will. I don't know if any two people would define free will in the same way? How would you define free will? If one were to define it as being able to do whatever one pleases whenever one pleases without any resistance then no one has free will but God and even He may be argued to not have that sort of free will as someone might say he does not have lack of resistance. If you define it as being able to decide to do something whether you actually accomplish doing it or not then everyone has free will. I see free will defined in so many different ways I do not think people are talking about the same thing when they discuss it.

mikedsjr said:

Oh sure your will can be changed.

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Surely it is possible that I change my mind, but I do it freely, no one can force my will to change (except God, if he want, but I think His will is that my will is free), and no one can force me to want something against my will.

mikedsjr said:

I'm not going to bring any light to this topic. I just wanted clarity by those who believe in free will. To what extent is your defense of free will? I believe in free will of some form. But the issue seems to be God doesn't change our free will. I disagree. In fact, I can change your free will. If your will is to go to the beach today, all I have to do is shoot you in the leg and your free will has been hampered. So what extent do you believe God doesn't have the freedom to change your directions?

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We choose because he chose. The will of man is subject to the will of God. Not one thing that you choose happens unless God willed for you to do it. I am typing this post right now. Although I am willing for it this to happen, it was actually God who willed for this to happen from the very foundation of the world. This is how deep the power of the Father runs, its incredible and also fearful, hence, the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord.

cgaviria said:

We choose because he chose. The will of man is subject to the will of God. Not one thing that you choose happens unless God willed for you to do it. I am typing this post right now. Although I am willing for it this to happen, it was actually God who willed for this to happen from the very foundation of the world. This is how deep the power of the Father runs, its incredible and also fearful, hence, the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord.

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Hopefully one doesn't stop at the beginning.