LDS Joseph Smith- traveling jeweler with his travelers tales and false prophecies

I suppose I will post it with bullets, and this continues a thought from another thread, with links to it, for reference:

This is the history of the Mormons progressive revelations:

Jane_Doe said:

All of your sources are nonofficial.
There are no official "third party" LDS publications.... Mormon bookstores also sell Harry Potter...

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Ironhold said:

BYU is allowed to do pretty much whatever it pleases. It's given a wide degree of latitude in many areas, such that it can publish whatever works it sees fit. Doesn't mean that anything BYU publishes is official.

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Ironhold said:

The official standard is what I explained to you: if the copyright isn't from church HQ itself, then it means that the work is not officially sanctioned.

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gradyll said:

but your interpretation is an opinion.

and since you are not authorized LDS publications, or other wise authorized.

then your opinion is not official.

But what we know are the facts, what was stated numerous times, and what is quoted by bringham young, the elders, and joseph smith.

our twistings of their intentions is arbitrary.

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but for now, again, we need the basics, like Joseph smiths false prophecies.
I have been in contact over the years with a research ministy CARM, and this is quotes of Smith's failed prophecies. following is from carm.org:
https://carm.org/false-prophecies-of-joseph-smith
False prophecies of Joseph Smith from allegedly inspired and official LDS literature.
(our opinions are not what matter as no one here is officials in LDS, what matters is what is actually stated in official LDS books like the below false prophecies...)

1. "Prophecy that the temple would be built in Missouri within Smith's Generation--"Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house . . . 31Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed,"(Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5, 31). See context: firstly, The Mormons were driven out of Jackson County in 1833. They were not gathered there in accordance to this prophecy dealing with building the temple. Secondly, The prophecy clearly states that the generation present when the prophecy was given would not pass away until the temple was built at the western boundaries of the state of Missouri which is in Independence. The temple was not built at that time, this prophecy is false.
2. All Nations would be involved in the American Civil War--"Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations," (Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3). See contextThis is clearly another false prophecy since all nations did not get involved in the American Civil War.
3. Prophesy that the earth will tremble and the sun be hidden in "not many days": "For not many days hence and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig-tree," (Doctrine and Covenants 88:87). See context-The sun hasn't yet been hidden nor has the moon hidden its face.This prophecy was given on 12/27/1832. "Not many days hence"? Since the writing of this article on 6/22/06, it has been 63,364 days or 173 years, 5 months, 26 days. I think that 63,364 days is more than "Not many days hence"?- For reference to January 1, 2000, it was 61,000 days (even) or 167 years, 5 days.
4. Prophecy that Isaiah 11 was about to be fulfilled--"In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, s aying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when 'they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,' but soon would come," (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, History, verse 40). See context- Isaiah 11:6-9 says, "And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the kid, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. 7 Also the cow and the bear will graze; Their young will lie down together; And the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8And the nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. 9They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea."-This has not yet been fulfilled. The wolf is not dwelling with the lamb, the calf and the lion are not together, nor are the cow and bear grazing together. The lion is not eating straw like an ox. Nursing children are not playing in the dens of cobras."- above quotes from CARM.org

This thread can talk about any contradictions with the BOM, or pearl of great price. As well as be a place to show contradictions with the above with science, geology, geography, paleontology, or archaeology.

ToBeLoved said:

Gradyll,

Where are these prophecies documented or come from. Which book?

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I agree with chaplain,

they are from pearl of great price, and BOM quotation (or should I say plaigerism of Isaiah)

I believe, if I am not mistaken.

Ironhold said:

I'll have to go back and find the original statement, but the full context is "God said that if I'm allowed to live until the end of my natural days, then I'll live long enough to see him appear. But if I'm not allowed to live long enough then God will delay his coming... and given how bloodthirsty our opposition has become of late, I'm pretty sure that this is what's going to happen."

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thank you for responding,

this is one of the four false prophecies given in official mormon literature.

granted what you are saying is only opinion and not official writing from the church, we will see what points you have made.

First off you make a point that it is your opinion that the context is that "if I am allowed to live until the end", however this is not a quote of what was said.

the context is what is in question, so in essence you beg the question when you state what the context is without any support.

it is a start, that you replied to one of these false prophecies, and for that I thank you.

however, the reply that was given only assumes what the context is, begs the question, and does not quote officials in this matter.

It therefore cannot be shown to be factual.

I quoted only things we know for sure, which is what was actually said.

you quote things that are in many cases heresay, and opinion only.

thanks for the reply.

withwonderingawe said:

I guess I'm wondering why we have two threads about the same thing? Is there a point I'm missing?

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wider op in this one, to cover some other issues if need be.

besides, many times similiar threads cover the same issue.

Ironhold said:

"I'll have to go back and find it" = "I'm busy right now, and so will provide you with the reference later." I work a rather demanding (and surprisingly dangerous) job that has me about at all hours, and it plays havoc with both my time and my memory.

As for the passage in question, here it is.

Emphasis mine:

Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

In this case, the prophecy (that God would come in the 1890s) was conditional upon Joseph Smith still being alive.

That being said, while trying to find the passage, I inadvertently stumbled upon an entire page at FAIR listing supposed failed prophecies and giving links to answers that were already written to discuss them. Might be an idea to look this over.

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I will look over your answer,

however in future, links are not good enough for replies.

they are good in sourcing citation, but not in main dialogue.

otherwise all we would do is post links with no dialogue.

Ironhold said:

"I'll have to go back and find it" = "I'm busy right now, and so will provide you with the reference later." I work a rather demanding (and surprisingly dangerous) job that has me about at all hours, and it plays havoc with both my time and my memory.

As for the passage in question, here it is.

Emphasis mine:

Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

In this case, the prophecy (that God would come in the 1890s) was conditional upon Joseph Smith still being alive.

That being said, while trying to find the passage, I inadvertently stumbled upon an entire page at FAIR listing supposed failed prophecies and giving links to answers that were already written to discuss them. Might be an idea to look this over.

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it looks like you are quoting another passage, in order to prove the context of the false prophecy, for example D&C section 130 versus section 84, and 87 sections where the prophecies were written.

and lastly your section 130 is entitled "Illinois" while the section dealing with the false prophecies deal with "Michigan" message given from "ohio".

so it would appear you are not only in the wrong location in the text, but also in the country.

so this passage would not be inked to the text,
our twistings of their intentions is arbitrary. Study of context should start in immediate context and migrate outward in successive linked thoughts and ideas. you jumped state and page to make a point, again this is arbitrary.

Ironhold said:

"I'll have to go back and find it" = "I'm busy right now, and so will provide you with the reference later." I work a rather demanding (and surprisingly dangerous) job that has me about at all hours, and it plays havoc with both my time and my memory.

As for the passage in question, here it is.

Emphasis mine:

Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

In this case, the prophecy (that God would come in the 1890s) was conditional upon Joseph Smith still being alive.

That being said, while trying to find the passage, I inadvertently stumbled upon an entire page at FAIR listing supposed failed prophecies and giving links to answers that were already written to discuss them. Might be an idea to look this over.

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another question to look up: when you have time.

Context: We only know for a fact that joseph smith existed historically. because it shows up in history books. We know that he had multiple wives and was a digger for trickets. He went from town to town with these things.

We know this from : "no man knows my history" by fawn brodie.

even if you disagree with 90 percent, and say it is innacurate.

and only if 10 percent is true, what she says as a legit historian......


it poses joseph smith as a gold digger who traveled and showed off his little trinkets.

it has motive.

he wanted a bigger trinket to show,

so he fabricated, and or opened his mind up to demonic ,or both.....

there is many issues with his story.

no one has seen the plates, nor the language written.

the egyptian was modified to a short hand version so that the text could fit on the plates.

but again, no evidence of either long hand egyptian, nor short hand, because no plates were found.

at least with the Bible, archaology supports the scriptures found.

with Mormonism, it simply does not.

How do we know Joseph smith didn't just fabricate a find of gold plates, of great value.?

or if he did indeed find them, how do we know they were simply not aztek gold, buried?

fawn brodie

depicts a young man digging for buried treasure, and even being charged with disturbing the peace due to the bands of laborers traveling with him. It was well know he was into the magic arts. She states.

eight artifacts found near the smith realestate, they were artifacts of beaten silver, and copper, and indian in nature. Due to the exitement of finding spanish gold a vagabond furtune teller named :walters. traveled and dug for money on farmers lands for a fee. When he left the area, Joseph 'his mantle fell upon young joseph smith'

-ibid, No man knows my Story, biography of joseph smith by fawn brodie.