Tithing

Sylvester Browne · Nov 13, 2015

Malachi 3:8-12:Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions. You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you. Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need. I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of your soil, and your vine in the field shall not fail to bear, says the Lord of hosts. Then all nations will call you blessed, for you will be a land of delight, says the Lord of hosts. Just 10% of what earn thats all God ask in tithing, He is the giver of what you earn and promise to give you more if you give him the 10% of your earning, God have been soo good to you and will always be good to you. God Bless you Amen.

God all in all · Nov 21, 2015

If we take Malachi as obligatory, why not all take all the Law? Malachi is the prophet of the Law! Few verses before famous Malachi 3:10, Malachi's audience is referred to as "sons of Jacob", and few verses after it says: "Listen to Moses, my servant, the law and ordinances I gave him at Horeb (Sinai!)". Christians are NOT sons of Jacob, nor are we to listen to Moses!!

The Portuguese Baptist · Nov 21, 2015

God all in all said:
If we take Malachi as obligatory, why not all take all the Law? Malachi is the prophet of the Law! Few verses before famous Malachi 3:10, Malachi's audience is referred to as "sons of Jacob", and few verses after it says: "Listen to Moses, my servant, the law and ordinances I gave him at Horeb (Sinai!)". Christians are NOT sons of Jacob, nor are we to listen to Moses!!

I do hope you are not taking this to mean that we should not give anything to God.

Charlie7399 · Nov 21, 2015

The Portuguese Baptist said:
I do hope you are not taking this to mean that we should not give anything to God.

I'm sure God doesn't need our money. As the person above you put it, this is from the time of the Law. We are not under the Law anymore, but under Grace. We should give money to our churches to make sure they can do their work, nothing more. God doesn't demand that we sacrifice a part of our earnings to him, especially not an arbritary percentage. Too many lives have been destroyed by this false doctrine, and we should not give an inch of credibility to it.

If defending these practices wasn't your intention, just ignore this comment, but I had to say it.

God all in all · Nov 22, 2015

The Portuguese Baptist said:
I do hope you are not taking this to mean that we should not give anything to God.

No, i am not taking this to mean that. But we shouldn't take legalistic approach that has nothing to do with the Truth. Modern day "tithing" is not based on God's word, that's the problem. Those who advocate it made a mixture of levitical tithe (obsolete today since all christians are kings and priests) shifting it from food and animal products to money, and then put Abraham's name on it as if that would make it legitimate for NT christians. But they leave out the fact that Abram gave tithe, not Abraham. Christians are not Abram's sons. We are not in Abram, nor Abraham - we are in Christ, "our Melchisedek". Hebrews and Acts testify about it when it says that fathers had "promises", but not the fulfillment of it. We have the fulfillment! Like with other things that were shadows (circumcision for example, which is also pre-Law!) - once "the real thing" comes - the shadow becomes obsolete. Besides, Abram was father of one nation (to be precise: father of Ishmael, son of slave woman, which, according to Galatians, represent the Old covenant)! Our "faith father" is Abraham, father of many nations who never gave tithe! Abram gave tithe when he had only promises, not the covenant (he got into covenant with God only in the 15th chapter of Genesis, after the tithe). Why should we go back and apply something to us which was never intended for us?

The Portuguese Baptist · Nov 22, 2015

Charlie7399 said:
I'm sure God doesn't need our money. As the person above you put it, this is from the time of the Law. We are not under the Law anymore, but under Grace. We should give money to our churches to make sure they can do their work, nothing more. God doesn't demand that we sacrifice a part of our earnings to him, especially not an arbritary percentage. Too many lives have been destroyed by this false doctrine, and we should not give an inch of credibility to it.

If defending these practices wasn't your intention, just ignore this comment, but I had to say it.

I entirely disagree with the part of your comment which I have put into bold text.

The first sentence is ridiculous in that it implies that we must supply the church with solely the resources it needs. By that standard, you would not give money to a church with a lot of funds. By that standard, if your church does not have any financial problems, you will not give them anything. This is ridiculous and unbiblical: the Bible nowhere encourages us to give offerings to churches who need them; in fact, to my knowledge, none of the passages that pertain to giving money to God talks about the church's resources or necessities.

The second sentence I have put into bold text is unbiblical too. God does demand that we sacrifice our earnings to him; and not just part, but all of it. Just read Matthew 19:16-22. Our Lord is Lord over every single aspect of our lives, and this includes the entirety of our money. If he wants us to do something with it, it is his choice, not ours. As my pastor often puts it, ‘The Lord is either Lord of everything or Lord of nothing.’

The Portuguese Baptist · Nov 22, 2015

God all in all said:
No, i am not taking this to mean that. But we shouldn't take legalistic approach that has nothing to do with the Truth. Modern day "tithing" is not based on God's word, that's the problem. Those who advocate it made a mixture of levitical tithe (obsolete today since all christians are kings and priests) shifting it from food and animal products to money, and then put Abraham's name on it as if that would make it legitimate for NT christians. But they leave out the fact that Abram gave tithe, not Abraham. Christians are not Abram's sons. We are not in Abram, nor Abraham - we are in Christ, "our Melchisedek". Hebrews and Acts testify about it when it says that fathers had "promises", but not the fulfillment of it. We have the fulfillment! Like with other things that were shadows (circumcision for example, which is also pre-Law!) - once "the real thing" comes - the shadow becomes obsolete. Besides, Abram was father of one nation (to be precise: father of Ishmael, son of slave woman, which, according to Galatians, represent the Old covenant)! Our "faith father" is Abraham, father of many nations who never gave tithe! Abram gave tithe when he had only promises, not the covenant (he got into covenant with God only in the 15th chapter of Genesis, after the tithe). Why should we go back and apply something to us which was never intended for us?

Surely the specified 10% (which is the literal meaning of ‘tithe’) appears solely in the Old Testament, and we are not supposed to follow it specifically; that would be too extremely legalistic, and falls into the same kind of error the Pharisees often feel into.

Nevertheless, I believe that the 10% tithe is a good principle and a good minimum. It is a good tradition from Old Testament times. We are not required to follow it, but it is very good if we do. If we all could give, at the very least, 10% of what we have to the church, would it not be so much better? Would not the Lord's work advance so much more?

Charlie7399 · Nov 22, 2015

The Portuguese Baptist said:
I entirely disagree with the part of your comment which I have put into bold text.

The first sentence is ridiculous in that it implies that we must supply the church with solely the resources it needs. By that standard, you would not give money to a church with a lot of funds. By that standard, if your church does not have any financial problems, you will not give them anything. This is ridiculous and unbiblical: the Bible nowhere encourages us to give offerings to churches who need them; in fact, to my knowledge, none of the passages that pertain to giving money to God talks about the church's resources or necessities.

The second sentence I have put into bold text is unbiblical too. God does demand that we sacrifice our earnings to him; and not just part, but all of it. Just read Matthew 19:16-22. Our Lord is Lord over every single aspect of our lives, and this includes the entirety of our money. If he wants us to do something with it, it is his choice, not ours. As my pastor often puts it, ‘The Lord is either Lord of everything or Lord of nothing.’

The ridiculous thing here is to imply that we can give money to God. What I meant by my sentence is that we should not be fooled into thinking about it like that. We should give money to the church, not because God demands it, but because the church needs the money to do God's work. Even a church with a lot of funds can use extra money to do extra good.

About the second sentence, the very passage you showed me talks about giving money to the poor, not to a church. This says a lot. What God demands from us is that we do not put our money above Him. He demands charity: we must not let our greed stop us from helping others in need. That includes churches, as I pointed out before. He does not, however, demand it in a legalistic way, like a lot of people do. We must give freely and with love. Charity must be a fruit of God's work on us, through faith.

I never denied that the Lord is Lord over our money, and that we should have a Christian understanding of our finances as well. I never denied that we should be thankful for all that He gives us. The sort of legalism defended here, however, is not what He wants. Too many people have been thrown into poverty believing that God would bless them with riches because they tithe. Too many pastors have become obscenely rich deceiving these poor, gullible souls. I've had enough of that. Legalism is not the way. The only way is through faith and love.

God all in all · Nov 22, 2015

The Portuguese Baptist said:
Surely the specified 10% (which is the literal meaning of ‘tithe’) appears solely in the Old Testament, and we are not supposed to follow it specifically; that would be too extremely legalistic, and falls into the same kind of error the Pharisees often feel into.

Nevertheless, I believe that the 10% tithe is a good principle and a good minimum. It is a good tradition from Old Testament times. We are not required to follow it, but it is very good if we do. If we all could give, at the very least, 10% of what we have to the church, would it not be so much better? Would not the Lord's work advance so much more?

I disagree. In the OT poor people were given to, and not asked from (orphans, widows). If you had 9 cows you were not tithing. You should have had at least 10 to tithe. Paul speaks about equality in regards to giving! Equality. So 10% is not "good minimum" for everyone. For someone is way too much, for others way too little.

The Portuguese Baptist · Nov 23, 2015

Charlie7399 said:
The ridiculous thing here is to imply that we can give money to God. What I meant by my sentence is that we should not be fooled into thinking about it like that. We should give money to the church, not because God demands it, but because the church needs the money to do God's work. Even a church with a lot of funds can use extra money to do extra good.

Ah! I understand what you mean now! Yes, when we give money to the church, we are not directly giving money to God — but, indirectly, we are, because the money we give the church is used for the Lord's work.

Also, as far as I know, there is not any passage in the New Testament that supports your idea that we ‘give money to the church because the church needs the money’. Where do you find that in the Bible? We don't give money because the church needs it — or at least, not solely because of that —; we give money primarily because God tells us to (1 Corinthians 16:1-4; 2 Corinthians 9:7).

Charlie7399 said:
About the second sentence, the very passage you showed me talks about giving money to the poor, not to a church. This says a lot. What God demands from us is that we do not put our money above Him. He demands charity: we must not let our greed stop us from helping others in need. That includes churches, as I pointed out before. He does not, however, demand it in a legalistic way, like a lot of people do. We must give freely and with love. Charity must be a fruit of God's work on us, through faith.

I never denied that the Lord is Lord over our money, and that we should have a Christian understanding of our finances as well. I never denied that we should be thankful for all that He gives us. The sort of legalism defended here, however, is not what He wants. Too many people have been thrown into poverty believing that God would bless them with riches because they tithe. Too many pastors have become obscenely rich deceiving these poor, gullible souls. I've had enough of that. Legalism is not the way. The only way is through faith and love.

I agree with that entirely. You are particularly correct regarding the false doctrine telling people that, if they tithe, God shall bless them (which is true to some extent, but the problem is that this makes people give solely because they want God to bless them, meaning that they are giving with the wrong motivations — God does not bless such people). It seems I may have got confused over what you said. I am still a bit confused about your actual viewpoint. What do you really believe in regarding this issue? Should we tithe or not?

I believe that every Christian should give money to the church freely and as he feels led to do (2 Corinthians 9:7). I believe that the 10% tithe is a generally good principle, but one that does not need to be strictly and legalistically followed, much less imposed on other people. I believe that we should pray for wisdom to discern how much we should give to the church (which, in a way, is also indirectly giving to God).

The Portuguese Baptist · Nov 23, 2015

God all in all said:
[...] Paul speaks about equality in regards to giving! Equality.

Where?

God all in all said:
So 10% is not "good minimum" for everyone. For someone is way too much, for others way too little.

All right, ‘good minimum’ may not have been an appropriate expression, but I believe it is a good principle — if you could do it, that would be excellent!

Charlie7399 · Nov 23, 2015

The Portuguese Baptist said:
Ah! I understand what you mean now! Yes, when we give money to the church, we are not directly giving money to God — but, indirectly, we are, because the money we give the church is used for the Lord's work.

Also, as far as I know, there is not any passage in the New Testament that supports your idea that we ‘give money to the church because the church needs the money’. Where do you find that in the Bible? We don't give money because the church needs it — or at least, not solely because of that —; we give money primarily because God tells us to (1 Corinthians 16:1-4; 2 Corinthians 9:7).

I agree with that entirely. You are particularly correct regarding the false doctrine telling people that, if they tithe, God shall bless them (which is true to some extent, but the problem is that this makes people give solely because they want God to bless them, meaning that they are giving with the wrong motivations — God does not bless such people). It seems I may have got confused over what you said. I am still a bit confused about your actual viewpoint. What do you really believe in regarding this issue? Should we tithe or not?

I believe that every Christian should give money to the church freely and as he feels led to do (2 Corinthians 9:7). I believe that the 10% tithe is a generally good principle, but one that does not need to be strictly and legalistically followed, much less imposed on other people. I believe that we should pray for wisdom to discern how much we should give to the church (which, in a way, is also indirectly giving to God).

Well, it's nice to see that we are getting to some form of understanding here! Yes, I am aware that you can't find it written like that anywhere, but I believe it's only logical to think this way. Why would we give money to a church, if not to help them with their needs? I don't think God told us to do this for no particular reason. A church can only do its job (and improve it as well) if it has the funds. It's not strictly biblical to speak in these terms, but there you are.

I'd say I believe the same thing as you, really. If a Christian feels compelled to donate money for a good cause I think it would just be wrong not to do it, as long as the reason is greed anyway. That includes helping churches, obviously. I just hate to see all the abuse that so often happens, hence why I might have seemed a bit hostile in my earlier posts. Praying for wisdom is, indeed, the best thing to do in cases like this.

The Portuguese Baptist · Nov 23, 2015

Charlie7399 said:
Well, it's nice to see that we are getting to some form of understanding here! Yes, I am aware that you can't find it written like that anywhere, but I believe it's only logical to think this way. Why would we give money to a church, if not to help them with their needs? I don't think God told us to do this for no particular reason. A church can only do its job (and improve it as well) if it has the funds. It's not strictly biblical to speak in these terms, but there you are.

I'd say I believe the same thing as you, really. If a Christian feels compelled to donate money for a good cause I think it would just be wrong not to do it, as long as the reason is greed anyway. That includes helping churches, obviously. I just hate to see all the abuse that so often happens, hence why I might have seemed a bit hostile in my earlier posts. Praying for wisdom is, indeed, the best thing to do in cases like this.

Good! I understand that we have finally agreed on these things!

Yes, of course the church's needs are very important, and a significant motivation to give, but — I speak for myself — I believe I would not give as much as I do now if I were not aware of my God-incited duty and responsibility to give. Our sense of duty and responsibility, recommended in the Bible, is also very important.

I understand what happened. I think our initial reactions we so different because of the different backgrounds we come from: at my church, we are often bidden to ‘bring our tithes and offers to God’, although we are always warned that ‘no-one should feel constrained to give, but everyone should give wilfully and joyfully’, meaning I support the idea; meanwhile, perhaps you come from a church where tithing and offerings were over-emphasised, or perhaps where the leaders even promised God's blessings to all the ‘tithers’ (does this word exist?), which may have made you horrified and naturally slightly leery of all those talking about tithing. However, it appears our beliefs in this aspect really do not differ!

Regarding the tithing, it does not have to be that specific 10%, but — again, I speak for myself — I find it to be a good orientation for me, and, in the future, I would never like to contribute with anything less than 10% for the work of my Lord. Meanwhile, I refuse to impose my 10%-minimum principle on anyone else, and I refuse to judge anyone who does not abide by it.

In all things, nevertheless, I believe we should always heed James 1:5 and pray for wisdom!

May God bless us!
The Portuguese Baptist

Charlie7399 · Nov 23, 2015

The Portuguese Baptist said:
I understand what happened. I think our initial reactions we so different because of the different backgrounds we come from: at my church, we are often bidden to ‘bring our tithes and offers to God’, although we are always warned that ‘no-one should feel constrained to give, but everyone should give wilfully and joyfully’, meaning I support the idea; meanwhile, perhaps you come from a church where tithing and offerings were over-emphasised, or perhaps where the leaders even promised God's blessings to all the ‘tithers’ (does this word exist?), which may have made you horrified and naturally slightly leery of all those talking about tithing. However, it appears our beliefs in this aspect really do not differ!

The Portuguese Baptist

You're spot on with that remark. I won't get too much into detail about my religious journey (since it's not the point here), but it suffices to say that when my family attended some Neo-Pentecostal churches in the past we saw the abuses for ourselves. "Prosperity theology" is sadly much too common here in Brazil nowadays. I'm glad we've reached an agreement, though!

The Portuguese Baptist · Nov 23, 2015

Charlie7399 said:
You're spot on with that remark. I won't get too much into detail about my religious journey (since it's not the point here), but it suffices to say that when my family attended some Neo-Pentecostal churches in the past we saw the abuses for ourselves. "Prosperity theology" is sadly much too common here in Brazil nowadays. I'm glad we've reached an agreement, though!

Hmm... Yes, the ‘prosperity gospel’ is so nonsensical that I do not understand the people who abide by it! Gosh! I am glad you were not deceived by it.

You need to be careful with these people.

Brazil... Ah! Of course! You're that Brazilian guy whom I met in the ‘Second languages’ thread! Sorry I didn't recognise your user name!

How are you doing?

God bless you, Charlie! See you around!

God all in all · Nov 24, 2015

The Portuguese Baptist said:
Where?

2nd Corinthians 8:12-15:
12For if the readiness is present, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have.13For this is not for the ease of others and for your affliction, but by way of equality--14at this present time your abundance being a supply for their need, so that their abundance also may become a supply for your need, that there may be EQUALITY, 15as it is written, "he who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little had no lack."

Paul also talks about giving „according to one's means“! Yes, he says also that those who preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel (1st Corinthians), but that is all about „sharing with the altar“ for those who serve „the sacred service“, with the main point being„sharing“! Sharing is not when some become rich elite on account of masses they preach to! First christians shared everything - in the first chapter of Acts they had everything „in common“! The word „communism“ has roots in true christianity! Also, when people were selling and giving away all they had – under the influence of Holy Spirit! - Ananaia and Sapphira made it appear as if they gave everything. What was wrong in it? It was their pretense, not their „not giving“ (witholding part of the money)! And Peter plainly said that they had full liberty to manage their property as they wished! Today people give much sometimes out of compulsion to appear spiritual and generous in front of other people, or in their own eyes! That's wrong too. Jesus told rich young ruler to sell everything and give to the poor. To the poor! Not „to me and my ministry“!!! How many ministers today tell you to sell everything you have and give it to the poor yourself!??! I am yet to meet one. They usually say (not so openly): „give to ME, sow into MY ministry...“Jesus never asked anything for himself from people, especially not money for His sustenance, or His ministry!! Yes, there were people who sustained Him with their means – but He didn't ask for it, it was out of pure gratitude and owe. It was not solicitated on His part, especially not with the fine words and false doctrines as „tithing“ is today (I am sorry, but I can list you some solid biblical NT arguments for my statement), playing guilty trip on christians! Also, the rich young ruler wanted to“enter life“ by his own performance, by keeping the Law –which no human besides Jesus could do! Because of young man's religious confidence (pride) Jesus gave him something impossible (=the Law) in order to show him that it is truly impossible for a human to be fully obedient to God! The Law requires full obedience in everything – and that is something only Jesus was ever capable of! Who of humans was ever capable to fully obey the 1st commandment of the Law!?!? No one. So Jesus said that it is hard for a rich person to enter the Kingdom. He didn't say it is impossible, but hard. You know why it is „hard“, and not „impossible“? Because in order to „enter life“ we should humble ourselves and admitt that to us humans is impossible to enter life based on our performance (obedience to the Law)! Once we recognize it- hooop, God gives grace to the humble and we are „in“, we enter life through one and only door - Him! And we should stay „in“ humble as we entered! But the people who confide in THEIR riches (spiritual or material), their ability, their obedience etc. are not willing to admit that it is impossible for humans to save themselves - so for them it is hard to enter life, or to stay in it – because they go back to human efforts, legalism and spiritual pride! It is hard because they are not willing to admit that it is impossible for us to be saved or to stay saved on our own!

The Portuguese Baptist · Nov 24, 2015

God all in all said:
2nd Corinthians 8:12-15:
12For if the readiness is present, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have.13For this is not for the ease of others and for your affliction, but by way of equality--14at this present time your abundance being a supply for their need, so that their abundance also may become a supply for your need, that there may be EQUALITY, 15as it is written, "he who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little had no lack."

Paul also talks about giving „according to one's means“! Yes, he says also that those who preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel (1st Corinthians), but that is all about „sharing with the altar“ for those who serve „the sacred service“, with the main point being„sharing“! Sharing is not when some become rich elite on account of masses they preach to! First christians shared everything - in the first chapter of Acts they had everything „in common“! The word „communism“ has roots in true christianity! Also, when people were selling and giving away all they had – under the influence of Holy Spirit! - Ananaia and Sapphira made it appear as if they gave everything. What was wrong in it? It was their pretense, not their „not giving“ (witholding part of the money)! And Peter plainly said that they had full liberty to manage their property as they wished! Today people give much sometimes out of compulsion to appear spiritual and generous in front of other people, or in their own eyes! That's wrong too. Jesus told rich young ruler to sell everything and give to the poor. To the poor! Not „to me and my ministry“!!! How many ministers today tell you to sell everything you have and give it to the poor yourself!??! I am yet to meet one. They usually say (not so openly): „give to ME, sow into MY ministry...“Jesus never asked anything for himself from people, especially not money for His sustenance, or His ministry!! Yes, there were people who sustained Him with their means – but He didn't ask for it, it was out of pure gratitude and owe. It was not solicitated on His part, especially not with the fine words and false doctrines as „tithing“ is today (I am sorry, but I can list you some solid biblical NT arguments for my statement), playing guilty trip on christians! Also, the rich young ruler wanted to“enter life“ by his own performance, by keeping the Law –which no human besides Jesus could do! Because of young man's religious confidence (pride) Jesus gave him something impossible (=the Law) in order to show him that it is truly impossible for a human to be fully obedient to God! The Law requires full obedience in everything – and that is something only Jesus was ever capable of! Who of humans was ever capable to fully obey the 1st commandment of the Law!?!? No one. So Jesus said that it is hard for a rich person to enter the Kingdom. He didn't say it is impossible, but hard. You know why it is „hard“, and not „impossible“? Because in order to „enter life“ we should humble ourselves and admitt that to us humans is impossible to enter life based on our performance (obedience to the Law)! Once we recognize it- hooop, God gives grace to the humble and we are „in“, we enter life through one and only door - Him! And we should stay „in“ humble as we entered! But the people who confide in THEIR riches (spiritual or material), their ability, their obedience etc. are not willing to admit that it is impossible for humans to save themselves - so for them it is hard to enter life, or to stay in it – because they go back to human efforts, legalism and spiritual pride! It is hard because they are not willing to admit that it is impossible for us to be saved or to stay saved on our own!

You seem to be turning away from the point, and I can no longer understand what you are trying to say. What's your point? Could you please clarify?

God all in all · Nov 25, 2015

The Portuguese Baptist said:
You seem to be turning away from the point, and I can no longer understand what you are trying to say. What's your point? Could you please clarify?

I was referring to your bringing up Matthew 19 (the story about rich young ruler) as an example for us to follow in regards to finances. You said: „God does demand that we sacrifice our earnings to him; and not just part, but all of it. Just readMatthew 19:16-22. Our Lord is Lord over every single aspect of our lives, and this includes the entirety of our money. If he wants us to do something with it, it is his choice, not ours. As my pastor often puts it, ‘The Lord is either Lord of everything or Lord of nothing.’“

I say: no, God does not demand anything from us. The Law demanded – grace supplies – as one of the great preachers put it. God chose to share everything with us. He owns everything but He does NOT demand to give anything. If we think that it is God who „demands“ – it only shows we still have the Law mentality instead of grace mentality. Zaccheus (which Jesus met in Luke 19, after He met rich young ruler) was ready to give out of pure heart and Jesus did not tell him what He told previously to rich young ruler! Why He didn't? Because Zaccheus was free from legalistic mentality.

Unless it is Holy Spirit who prompts us to give out of love – it is not acceptable in God's eyes!!

My overall point is that tithing was part of the Law and we are to be „dead to the Law“, as Paul says! Abram was future father of fleshly children, those who are „of the Law“ (Galatians 4:22-26). Abram's life and actions were a prophetic picture of what his future fleshly children will do (give tithes). I emphasize: Abram gave tithe – NOT Abraham!! Abram gave tithe in the 14th chapter of Genesis - before he even made a covenant with God (15th chapter)!! We are in the covenant with God already, are we not? So IF we recognize today that we are in the covenant with God (in Jesus Christ) – why we would go back, to the pre-covenant actions? Why would we follow someone's actions (tithing) when the person who did it (Abram) was in completely different position from ours when he tithed!? We are called to discern from God's Word what is for us, and what is not (because it is already fulfilled or obsolete).

Abram only later become AbraHAM (17th chapter) - which made him father of many nations, our „father by faith“! Christians has nothing to do with Abram and what He did!!! We are AbraHAM's children! What Abram did before he became Abraham is well behind us, as the cross is behind us, as cross is the reality which accomplished our complete salvation and well-being and blessings once and for all!!! Melchisedek's giving bread and wine prophesies about Jesus' body and blood! How many times Jesus gave it? Once and for all! So, Christians are sons of Abraham, sons of covenant of faith, by which we are blessed (Galatians 3:14!!). Even more than that: we are „sons of God in Jesus Christ“ (not the „sons of Jacob“ that Malachi refers to!)We are blessed NOT because what we do (give, serve... whatever) but because of what Jesus has done for us! (Ephesians 1:3).

That's why our giving has to be out of pure heart, out of love for neighbours in need and also to possibly sustain those who, because of commiting themselves exclusively to preaching the Gospel, chose not to take regular jobs. But I am against pastors and ministers getting money from members by abusing scriptures, by twisting and falsely interpreting examples from the Bible! God does not want His children to be abused by no one! He wants us to respect His Word, so we won't be easy pray of those who twist His word (intenionally or not)!

Also, today all christians are all priests and kings, „royal priesthood“ (1st Peter). There is no distinction between laity and priesthood any more! In the OT period tithe was intended for sustenance of the priests and levites (helpers to the priests). Today everyone in the body of Christ is supposed to serve („each one according to the gift of grace God gave him“) because we all are kings and priests, and we all have only One KING and HIGH PRIEST (Jesus Christ, our Melchisedek). He would be THE only one entitled to receive tithe, if He were on earth. (Because Abram gave it to Him personally, not to any mediator, representative etc.) That's why New Testament brings the concept of „sharing“ instead of giving to some special class (pastors). Sharing is emphasized by introducing the concept of „body“ which never existed prior to the New Testament! When I eat –my whole body is nourished, not just my stomac, my head or whatever. When there is imbalance in the body of Christ, something must be wrong with the sharing of food and care!

God bless you my young brother in your search for Truth about any subject God will reveal to you.

The Portuguese Baptist · Nov 25, 2015

God all in all said:
I was referring to your bringing up Matthew 19 (the story about rich young ruler) as an example for us to follow in regards to finances. You said: „God does demand that we sacrifice our earnings to him; and not just part, but all of it. Just readMatthew 19:16-22. Our Lord is Lord over every single aspect of our lives, and this includes the entirety of our money. If he wants us to do something with it, it is his choice, not ours. As my pastor often puts it, ‘The Lord is either Lord of everything or Lord of nothing.’“

I say: no, God does not demand anything from us. The Law demanded – grace supplies – as one of the great preachers put it. God chose to share everything with us. He owns everything but He does NOT demand to give anything. If we think that it is God who „demands“ – it only shows we still have the Law mentality instead of grace mentality. Zaccheus (which Jesus met in Luke 19, after He met rich young ruler) was ready to give out of pure heart and Jesus did not tell him what He told previously to rich young ruler! Why He didn't? Because Zaccheus was free from legalistic mentality.

Unless it is Holy Spirit who prompts us to give out of love – it is not acceptable in God's eyes!!

My overall point is that tithing was part of the Law and we are to be „dead to the Law“, as Paul says! Abram was future father of fleshly children, those who are „of the Law“ (Galatians 4:22-26). Abram's life and actions were a prophetic picture of what his future fleshly children will do (give tithes). I emphasize: Abram gave tithe – NOT Abraham!! Abram gave tithe in the 14th chapter of Genesis - before he even made a covenant with God (15th chapter)!! We are in the covenant with God already, are we not? So IF we recognize today that we are in the covenant with God (in Jesus Christ) – why we would go back, to the pre-covenant actions? Why would we follow someone's actions (tithing) when the person who did it (Abram) was in completely different position from ours when he tithed!? We are called to discern from God's Word what is for us, and what is not (because it is already fulfilled or obsolete).

Abram only later become AbraHAM (17th chapter) - which made him father of many nations, our „father by faith“! Christians has nothing to do with Abram and what He did!!! We are AbraHAM's children! What Abram did before he became Abraham is well behind us, as the cross is behind us, as cross is the reality which accomplished our complete salvation and well-being and blessings once and for all!!! Melchisedek's giving bread and wine prophesies about Jesus' body and blood! How many times Jesus gave it? Once and for all! So, Christians are sons of Abraham, sons of covenant of faith, by which we are blessed (Galatians 3:14!!). Even more than that: we are „sons of God in Jesus Christ“ (not the „sons of Jacob“ that Malachi refers to!)We are blessed NOT because what we do (give, serve... whatever) but because of what Jesus has done for us! (Ephesians 1:3).

That's why our giving has to be out of pure heart, out of love for neighbours in need and also to possibly sustain those who, because of commiting themselves exclusively to preaching the Gospel, chose not to take regular jobs. But I am against pastors and ministers getting money from members by abusing scriptures, by twisting and falsely interpreting examples from the Bible! God does not want His children to be abused by no one! He wants us to respect His Word, so we won't be easy pray of those who twist His word (intenionally or not)!

Also, today all christians are all priests and kings, „royal priesthood“ (1st Peter). There is no distinction between laity and priesthood any more! In the OT period tithe was intended for sustenance of the priests and levites (helpers to the priests). Today everyone in the body of Christ is supposed to serve („each one according to the gift of grace God gave him“) because we all are kings and priests, and we all have only One KING and HIGH PRIEST (Jesus Christ, our Melchisedek). He would be THE only one entitled to receive tithe, if He were on earth. (Because Abram gave it to Him personally, not to any mediator, representative etc.) That's why New Testament brings the concept of „sharing“ instead of giving to some special class (pastors). Sharing is emphasized by introducing the concept of „body“ which never existed prior to the New Testament! When I eat –my whole body is nourished, not just my stomac, my head or whatever. When there is imbalance in the body of Christ, something must be wrong with the sharing of food and care!

God bless you my young brother in your search for Truth about any subject God will reveal to you.

I agree with all these things you have said, but I still do not understand your point regarding giving money to the church. Do you think we should not give money to the church? What is your point?

As I have said earlier (though not to you, but to Charlie): ‘I believe that every Christian should give money to the church freely and as he feels led to do (2 Corinthians 9:7). I believe that the 10% tithe is a generally good principle, but one that does not need to be strictly and legalistically followed, much less imposed on other people. I believe that we should pray for wisdom to discern how much we should give to the church (which, in a way, is also indirectly giving to God).’ Do you agree with these things?

lilmatchgirl · Nov 25, 2015

A workman is worthy of his hire

It's not a command, but if all our money is on loan from God it makes sense to use some of it to give to the church for its needs.

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