Evangelicals: Are billions of people going to burn in hell?

Timothew · Nov 25, 2015

lutherangerman said:
The bible nowhere explicitly claims that there can be no forgiveness for you after death. In fact logic, love and mercy and suffering and equality and justice and the worth of a man suggest that indeed there can be forgiveness and grace from Christ after death in the heavenly judgment.

Berean777 said:
Your correct, the Bible doesn't explicitly declare that there can't be forgiveness after death and by the same token the Bible doesn't explicitly declare that there can be forgiveness after death.

The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more. I'm just guessing but I think that after a person is destroyed, it might be too late to repent. But as you guys say, the Bible doesn't really tell us either way. It seems better to repent before being destroyed.

Timothew · Nov 25, 2015

Hammster said:
MOD HAT ON

Since the discussion involves unorthodox views, it has been moved from General Theology.

MOD HAT OFF

Thanks Hammster. :oldthumbsup:

Berean777 · Nov 25, 2015

Timothew said:
The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more. I'm just guessing but I think that after a person is destroyed, it might be too late to repent. But as you guys say, the Bible doesn't really tell us either way. It seems better to repent before being destroyed.

That is essentially the gospel message and the urgent call to deliver the message of hope to as many who will recieve it, before it is too late for many.

Because this message of urgency is highlighted and reiterated throughout the new testament, one is inclined to think that it really counts while the recipient of the message is still alive, otherwise there would be many fall back statements, like if we couldn't reach X then X has another chance down the line in the afterlife.

Once a doctrine opens the door for another chance in the afterlife, then this undermines the seriousness and urgency of the gospel to make disciples of all the world. The inference is that, if they can be saved after death, then we don't really need to take the message as a life and death matter, rather we just go with the flow.

Liberalists and Universalist have a wing it yourself type of salvation, where they abuse the definition that God is Love to add a sense of hope after death for a person who doesn't even know Christ let alone consider the atoning blood on the cross at calvary.

This is why purgatory doctrine has done a huge harm to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ is telling one thing and some church denominations are selling something completely different that places them as trusties of the departed soul, after the earthly body is dissolved. It seems they have openned up a new business to extend beyond the grave. Certainly it is a lucrative business with people paying penance for departed relatives. As I said previously liberal theology has done real damage to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The manner of language that they use to persuade people to think that there is another chance after death is by flatteries. Some churches rely on flatteries to sell their purgatory amongst other crossless salvation message.

Just a few posts a gentleman said that God is somehow obligated to forgive, even after a person has departed. The consequemce of such idea is that Jesus is not really the one and only saviour, that by his name everything in heaven, on earth and under earth is given to him. So if God the Father forgives a person after death, then the Son is made second to the Father's obligatory forgiveness peragotive.

To me personally it sounds preposterous to say the least that God the Father has a disclaimer statement that if whenever he desired he could overide the Son by his obligatory forgiveness prerogative. This forgiveness flattery is another contradiction to the declaration that everything is given to the Son and so in that respect God the Father has absolutely no jurisdiction in his Son's affairs and he has taken a back seat while the Son sits on his throne.

If the Father overides the Son, then he is dethroning him in the process.

Berean777 · Nov 25, 2015

In fact scripture is clear that the Son is the ultimate authority and is not the subject ofvthe Father, until he delivers what?

1 Corinthians 15:27-28
27For “God the Father has put everything under His feet.”Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

What this means is to the question of salvation is that we are subjects of the Son. Paul writes we are prisoners of Christ.

So God the Father will not encroach on his Son to save anyone for that matter after they die. Simply put it is the Son's decision to choose his spiritual bride.

The groom chooses his bride as he wishes.

Salvation is not a cook book recipe, like mix this you get that. Salvation encompasses the selected by the sovereign Lord. That is many are called but only few are chosen.

There is no human argument that uses God's character like God is Love, so everyone is given another chance in the afterlife. It is a sovereign choice.

Isn't the groom allowed to choose his own bride or is he obligated by a salvation guide. Is there a legislation that requires the Lord to save all who do X, Y and Z?

Simply no.

Many in that day will say Lord Lord, then I will tell them away from me, I never knew you.

The bride must see her husband and so if the Lord chooses an individual he will show himself to them through visions. The man in white with the appearance of that on the mount of transfiguration will manifest hinself to whom he chooses.

Many are called yet only a few are chosen.

Berean777 · Nov 25, 2015

Salvation is a sovereign choice.

Go and make disciples of all the world and bring them before me so that I can choose says the Lord.

If those called are not all chosen, then do you think after death there are second round offers?

It is truly preposterous that the obligation of forgiveness as some people say overides the Lord's sovereign choice. What people are saying to the Lord is you must accept us because we have done X, Y and Z.

Matthew 7
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Question, do you think that those who drove out demons and performed miracles in the name of the Lord were false disciples?

Certainly not!

These disciples did their job and as Jesus would say greater works you shall do when I go to my Father. These disciples were not chosen.

People now will cringe and say what!

Can a false apostle do miracles in the Lord's name?

No.

Why were they wicked and does the word wicked mean wicked?

Actually their downside was that they did everything right like a legalistic pharisical cook book but they forgot to be in a close relationship with the Lord. They loved their life, they loved the world and they got a kick out of using the name of the Lord from their own egoistic hearts desires. They were humanists through and through.

Jesus doesn't like humanists. To him these are lifeless robots.

Humanistic religion or faith that relies on rationalizing salvation and breaking it down to a human empirical logical argument that I call flattery will not make the cut as far as the Lord is concerned. Low and behold this is the western mindset

The western mindset is programmed to think rationally and inperically about salvation as if to say that Jesus is somehow obligated to save all. Not only that but to also give second round offers to those who never made the first cut.

If people do not love the Lord more than themselves then their chances are very slim. Many go through painful death in their final years to finally renounce themselves and call upon the Lord. This fate is a blessing by which the Lord has rescued many.

You need to renounce yourself. That is a start. Now ask yourself this question. Can you do that now in the state of mind you have today?

How can we rationalise salvation or even theorize it into an inperical formula?

Hmmmmmmmmm..........

jimmyjimmy · Nov 26, 2015

HighwayMan said:
I have a question directed at those who believe in the evangelical doctrine of "Jesus is the only way," in the sense that no one who has not professed Christ to be their savior is going to heaven, but instead are going to hell.

As you are aware, billions of people do not identify as Christians. Then there are millions in certain religions that somewhat recognize central Christian principles, but combine it with other beliefs and cultural traditions, aka people that conservatives would in general not consider "saved."

There are many millions of children who have died without ever professing Christ. Are they going to hell?

There are many millions of young teenagers who have died without ever professing Christ. Are they going to hell?

There are many millions of people who have died who have lived in remote corners of the world and have never heard of the Bible. Are they going to hell?

There are many millions of people who have died before Jesus' time. Are they going to hell?

There are many millions of people who might have heard literally just a sentence or two about Jesus, but not believed. Are they going to hell?

There are many millions of people who have been raised since childhood into another religion, and technically have heard about Christianity and are aware of the basics, but have not developed anything of a proper understanding of Jesus, and are not Christians. Are they going to hell?

There are millions of people throughout the stretch of Earth's history who have had all kinds of moderate to severe mental difficulties, to an extent that any learning is highly problematic for them, and are not believers. Are they going to hell?

The reason why I ask all this, is because there are so many endless stories of people around the world today and throughout history, with so many various degrees of belief or non-belief in Jesus.

That makes the saved or not saved, Yes/No qualification that evangelicals place upon entering heaven extremely hard to reconcile with the realities of billions.

If you answered to a single one of these questions with "No," then the whole "Jesus is the only way" narrative falls apart. Because it would automatically become "Jesus is the only way, except if you died before the age of 4 when etc. [or substitute for whichever other exemption]. It makes no sense to believe in exclusivity while at the same time adding exemptions or conditions to the rule.

The much more common answer, of course, is "I don't know, God will decide, I trust him to do the right thing." Which is indeed, true - I certainly don't have the answers, but I believe Jesus does, and his judgment will be just --- but when evangelicals say this in response to the above questions, it just feels like they don't want to have a discussion, they don't want to think about the logistics, they don't want to reconcile their belief system with the reality of the world today. These are not one or two "weird" uncertain cases where we just don't know, but can ignore and not really think about - these are the stories of billions of people throughout history.

I thank in advance anyone who would like to engage me on this topic. And to say in advance - I have no "agenda," or some kind of belief system I want to push, these are honest questions, deep questions I think about all the time. Jesus said the gate is narrow - but I want to talk about those who presumably (or not) don't make it through the gate, in the context of the scenarios above.

You speak as if these people are innocent victims. The Bible say differently. No one in hell will try to escape it, nor after a million years, will they repent.

RDKirk · Nov 26, 2015

HighwayMan said:
Ok, thanks for the direct answer.

As a follow-up question though, I would ask: Do you feel that the babies, mentally handicapped etc. are morally guilty and deserving of hell for failing to be able to understand about Christ....or is it more of a case of where Christ would feel sorry for them, but there is no way for Him to change the rules?

It's pretty clear across the OT and NT that God takes a person's knowledge of Him into consideration of His judgment.

The specific reason God gave for His refusal to destroy the Ninevites before they had Jonah's witness was because "they don't know their right hand from their left."

The specific reason the residents of both Sodom and Jericho were vulnerable to judgment was because they had ample witness of God, as shown by 2 Peter concerning Lot and Rahab's confession.

Jesus said, "But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." He also said, ""If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

And from Paul, "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them."

It's not what you don't know that condemns you, it's what you do know that you refuse to acknowledge that condemns you. Infants and the severely mentally handicapped are not innocent, they are utterly ignorant, and the scriptural evidence is that God does not destroy the ignorant.

RDKirk · Nov 26, 2015

HighwayMan said:
I have a question directed at those who believe in the evangelical doctrine of "Jesus is the only way," in the sense that no one who has not professed Christ to be their savior is going to heaven, but instead are going to hell..

Here is the question: Is Job saved? If so, why and how?

The book of Job is considered by scholars the oldest written book of scripture. Job is not in the lineage of Abraham. He is an "other"--someone who has somehow come to know who God is by some means other than the Abrahamic lineage. How did that happen? How did Job know about God?

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. -- Psalm 19

This seems to be indicated within Job itself. When God speaks to those of the Abrahamic lineage, He talks about all that He has done for their line as the evidence of Himself. But when speaking to Job, God speaks of His creation--the star constellations and his great creatures of land and sea--as the evidence of Himself. I believe that is how Job first knew God...through creation, not through supernatural revelation, and so God references His creation to Job.

I think Paul provides the clues in Acts 17:

Then Paul stood in the middle of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that you are extremely religious in every respect. For as I was passing through and observing the objects of your worship, I even found an altar on which was inscribed:

TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore, what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it—He is Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in shrines made by hands. Neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives everyone life and breath and all things. From one man He has made every nationality to live over the whole earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live. He did this so they might seek God, and perhaps they might reach out and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. For in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’

And Paul moreover strongly asserts that God holds men who do not have a supernatural revelation yet responsible for what they can see of God in creation:

For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them.

For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse. -- Romans 1

So, then, is Job saved? If so, how and why?

Wait...Job also says this:

He is not a mere mortal like me that I might answer him, that we might confront each other in court. If only there were someone to mediate between us, someone to bring us together, someone to remove God’s rod from me, so that his terror would frighten me no more. -- Job 9

We read in Hebrews who this mediator is:

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant --- Hebrews 9

Job does not know the name of Jesus, but he knows he needs Jesus.

From Paul's address to the Athenians, I believe Job is not only saved, but that Job was not unique. Perhaps not at all common, but not unique. Paul tells us that God displays Himself in nature so that men can find Him, and that is not a cruel trick, but that if God holds men unacceptable for not recognizing Him from nature, He would hold men acceptable who do acknowledge Him from nature, "walking in the light that they have."

I'm not saying here that "all roads lead to God." I'm not a universalist, but I am an "inclusivist," as was CS Lewis and as is Billy Graham. There are those minority of people who acknowledge "there must be a God," and yet conclude that the religious culture around them somehow isn't it. They remain spiritually discomfited. Even if they go through the motions (as did the Syrian general Naaman-- 2 Kings 5), they know there is somewhere Someone else. And the Lord will give them peace as Naaman was promised peace.

zippy2 · Nov 27, 2015

Here is one of my favorites:
Mic 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

BobRyan · Dec 1, 2015

thatbrian said:
You speak as if these people are innocent victims. The Bible say differently. No one in hell will try to escape it, nor after a million years, will they repent.

So the purpose of hell is to promote rebellion for all of eternity??

BobRyan · Dec 1, 2015

Timothew said:
The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more. I'm just guessing but I think that after a person is destroyed, it might be too late to repent. But as you guys say, the Bible doesn't really tell us either way. It seems better to repent before being destroyed.

Matt 10:28 talks about God destroying "both body and soul in fiery hell" --

Is the OP question about the "number of people" that go to hell or it is about "how long hell burns"??

Timothew · Dec 3, 2015

BobRyan said:
Matt 10:28 talks about God destroying "both body and soul in fiery hell" --

Is the OP question about the "number of people" that go to hell or it is about "how long hell burns"??

The OP is asking about the number of people who will burn alive in hell. According to Jesus in Matthew 10:28, the number is ZERO.

BobRyan · Dec 3, 2015

Is the point of the OP that too many people are destined for hell (fiery hell as in Rev 20 - Lake of Fire) and so therefore hell must not exist?

Der Alte · Dec 6, 2015

BobRyan said:
Matt 10:28 talks about God destroying "both body and soul in fiery hell" --

Is the OP question about the "number of people" that go to hell or it is about "how long hell burns"??

You are misinterpreting Matt 10:28. It does not say that God ever has or ever will destroy any souls in hell. What God has created He certainly is able to destroy and that is all Matt 10:28 says. And even the Greek word "apollumi" translated "destroyed" does not necessarily mean to destroy, annihilate, cause to cease to exist. It occurs 86 times in the N.T. 71 times, 83%, of those verses it does not mean annihilation.

Note the wide range of meanings for the word translated "destruction," physical death, lose reward, lose things worked for, lose one's life, lose oneself, disaster at sea, die by sword, die by hunger, killed by snakes, be lost, or ruined, burst wine skins, transitory beauty of gold, passing splendor, spoiled food and honey, lose member or organ of body, straying sheep, lost son, etc!

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Evangelicals: Are billions of people going to burn in hell?

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