Proof "Queen of Heaven" IS actually Pagan. And Mary was NOT sinless.

bbbbbbb said:

What I am saying is simply that the title, "King of Heaven" is never used in the Bible.

It is a theological construct to create the title and to apply it to an individual. IMO it is rather sloppy theology to apply it to the Son, unless the Father has died, thereby opening the throne to the Son, as in the much-abused analogy of Solomon and Bathsheba. It is better theology to state that God, the LORD, is King of Heaven and that Jesus Christ, His Son, would be Prince. However, in doing so, that puts Mary in an extremely awkward and embarrassing position, does it not?

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Was not all authority given to the Son?

bbbbbbb said:

I will reminds you that I am not the one who determined that various individuals in heaven needed titles. I am perfectly content with Mary for who she is, not some imaginary Queen of Heaven. However, it seems that your church feels a need to give titles of a non-biblical nature to Mary, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

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Sorry if I'm butting in, but thought I'd highlight that through 2kings8to24 the mother is specifically named /singled out for the majority of the davidic Kings discussed, highlighting the importance of the position. See 8:26 and beginnings of ch12,14,15, 18 & 21-24
The queens relationship is also highlighted in ps45:9
Psalms 45:9
Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women:
upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

prodromos said:

Was not all authority given to the Son?

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No.

I Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Panevino said:

Sorry if I'm butting in, but thought I'd highlight that through 2kings8to24 the mother is specifically named /singled out for the majority of the davidic Kings discussed, highlighting the importance of the position. See 8:26 and beginnings of ch12,14,15, 18 & 21-24
The queens relationship is also highlighted in ps45:9
Psalms 45:9
Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women:
upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

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Psalm 45 refers to both the daughters of the king (and queen) and the queen as well as the king, but not the mother of the king.

Panevino said:

Sorry if I'm butting in, but thought I'd highlight that through 2kings8to24 the mother is specifically named /singled out for the majority of the davidic Kings discussed, highlighting the importance of the position. See 8:26 and beginnings of ch12,14,15, 18 & 21-24
The queens relationship is also highlighted in ps45:9
Psalms 45:9
Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women:
upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

Click to expand...

Any royal position is important, but that's not to say all of royalty gets their way all the time. Bathsheba/Solomon is a good example.

bbbbbbb said:

What I am saying is simply that the title, "King of Heaven" is never used in the Bible.

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So what?

It is a theological construct to create the title and to apply it to an individual. IMO it is rather sloppy theology to apply it to the Son, unless the Father has died, thereby opening the throne to the Son, as in the much-abused analogy of Solomon and Bathsheba. It is better theology to state that God, the LORD, is King of Heaven and that Jesus Christ, His Son, would be Prince. However, in doing so, that puts Mary in an extremely awkward and embarrassing position, does it not?

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The first word of the second sentence is very telling...IMO.
To answer your last question, we disagree with the premise, and so no, Mary is not in any awkward or embarrassing position. Jesus himself said he was ascending to the throne, James and John knew it, they wanted to sit at His right and left. Who sits on the throne? The King. Where is it written that a son cannot be king while the father is alive?

Root of Jesse said:

So what?
The first word of the second sentence is very telling...IMO.
To answer your last question, we disagree with the premise, and so no, Mary is not in any awkward or embarrassing position. Jesus himself said he was ascending to the throne, James and John knew it, they wanted to sit at His right and left. Who sits on the throne? The King. Where is it written that a son cannot be king while the father is alive?

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And where is it ever found in the Bible that a prince rules as king when when the king, his father, is yet alive? Also, where is it stated as to who, other than God, is seated next to Jesus Christ in heaven?

Standing Up said:

Any royal position is important, but that's not to say all of royalty gets their way all the time. Bathsheba/Solomon is a good example.

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Sure but the mother of the majority of the multiple kings discussed in the various verses are singled out and named with the king. This is apart from any other royal position that existed.
And yes some of these mothers would not obviously of always got there way.
Particularly when their will is not aligned.

bbbbbbb said:

And where is it ever found in the Bible that a prince rules as king when when the king, his father, is yet alive? Also, where is it stated as to who, other than God, is seated next to Jesus Christ in heaven?

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It's apples and oranges to compare to an earthly King.
The trinity is involved.
Seats-
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Panevino said:

It's apples and oranges to compare to an earthly King.
The trinity is involved.
Seats-
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

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So? All your verse states is that Jesus Christ will be seating on a throne. The prince is accorded a throne in most human monarchies, but it is not the same throne as his father's throne. If God, the Father, is alive and is King over the kingdom of God, then either Jesus Christ is subordinate in authority to His father or He has another kingdom apart from that of His father over which he reigns as a sovereign king. I fail to see such a kingdom in scripture.

The great conundrum with according Mary the title, Queen of Heaven, is that virtually all queens are married to either kings or consorts (if the queen is the regent of the kingdom and not her husband). That being the case, the analogy would, of necessity, make Mary the wife of God, the Father, as well as mother of her son, Jesus Christ. Until her husband, the king dies, a queen has no authority in the kingdom unless it is granted to her by her husband. This is likewise true for all children of the king, including the firstborn male. Taking the analogy further, Mary cannot fill the role that Bathsheba held following the death of King David, unless her husband, the King (God the Father) has died.

My question to Catholics who hold this view of Mary is, "When did God the Father die?"

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

bbbbbbb said:

And where is it ever found in the Bible that a prince rules as king when when the king, his father, is yet alive? Also, where is it stated as to who, other than God, is seated next to Jesus Christ in heaven?

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You know, Jesus is called the King of Kings in Revelation, so I'll just go with the Bible, there. Also, why would God be seated next to Jesus? But Jesus said it was the Father's call as to who would sit at Jesus' right and left.

bbbbbbb said:

The great conundrum with according Mary the title, Queen of Heaven, is that virtually all queens are married to either kings or consorts (if the queen is the regent of the kingdom and not her husband).

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Apparently, not always. The example we've provided mirrors any society where the king can have multiple wives and consorts. The mother was the queen.

That being the case, the analogy would, of necessity, make Mary the wife of God, the Father, as well as mother of her son, Jesus Christ.

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Mary was married to the Holy Spirit. God the Father is her Father, and God the Son is her son.

Until her husband, the king dies, a queen has no authority in the kingdom unless it is granted to her by her husband.

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Nobody is suggesting that Mary has any authority on her own. Her authority always comes from Jesus.

This is likewise true for all children of the king, including the firstborn male. Taking the analogy further, Mary cannot fill the role that Bathsheba held following the death of King David, unless her husband, the King (God the Father) has died.

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Actually, Solomon was not the king until David died. David's mother is never mentioned, but Bathsheba was not queen until Solomon became king.

My question to Catholics who hold this view of Mary is, "When did God the Father die?"

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Stupid question. Never.

Root of Jesse said:

You know, Jesus is called the King of Kings in Revelation, so I'll just go with the Bible, there. Also, why would God be seated next to Jesus? But Jesus said it was the Father's call as to who would sit at Jesus' right and left.

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And who, may I ask, is the king over the Kingdom of God?

Root of Jesse said:

Apparently, not always. The example we've provided mirrors any society where the king can have multiple wives and consorts. The mother was the queen.
Mary was married to the Holy Spirit. God the Father is her Father, and God the Son is her son.
Nobody is suggesting that Mary has any authority on her own. Her authority always comes from Jesus.
Actually, Solomon was not the king until David died. David's mother is never mentioned, but Bathsheba was not queen until Solomon became king.
Stupid question. Never.

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Poor Joseph. Locked into a relationship with a woman who was already married. Betrothed to her, even, and then actually married to her, causing her to commit adultery. Had he but really known that his wife was the Queen of Heaven, maybe his adulterous relationship might have been more socially acceptable.

bbbbbbb said:

And who, may I ask, is the king over the Kingdom of God?

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First time I have ever seen anyone try to argue that Jesus is not King in His kingdom

bbbbbbb said:

Poor Joseph. Locked into a relationship with a woman who was already married. Betrothed to her, even, and then actually married to her, causing her to commit adultery. Had he but really known that his wife was the Queen of Heaven, maybe his adulterous relationship might have been more socially acceptable.

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It's tricky isn't it but the Holy Spirit overshadowed her.
A kind of nuptial sign like Ruth boaz in ruth3:9&4:13

I differ from my conservative and liberal friends in that I very much love Mariology and I think of it as a beacon of feminist possibilities. Mary encapsulated the Goddess traditions of the ancient pagans and various other beliefs arose around her including that she is the Queen of Heaven. Further, she don't need no man, she's a beacon of theosis in and of herself.

bbbbbbb said:

So? All your verse states is that Jesus Christ will be seating on a throne. The prince is accorded a throne in most human monarchies, but it is not the same throne as his father's throne. If God, the Father, is alive and is King over the kingdom of God, then either Jesus Christ is subordinate in authority to His father or He has another kingdom apart from that of His father over which he reigns as a sovereign king. I fail to see such a kingdom in scripture.

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Sorry about the confusion
My quote of matt19:28 was my response to your query to someone else about other seats in heaven and an example that others sit on thrones with Jesus in some way. I wasn't trying to prove kingship with the word "throne."

His unearthly kingship is pretty clearly stated in his own words in
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.