Jesus Christ Did Pre-Exist, but He also Began. Only the Father Has No Beginning (moved)

brinny · Nov 23, 2015

....just wondering...

what names are announced for Jesus Christ at the announcing of His birth that defined Who He was?

cgaviria · Nov 23, 2015

brinny said:
....just wondering...

what names are announced for Jesus Christ at the announcing of His birth that defined Who He was?

God with us.

brinny · Nov 24, 2015

brinny said: ↑
....just wondering...

what names are announced for Jesus Christ at the announcing of His birth that defined Who He was?

cgaviria said:
God with us.

There was a string of names/titles....

Grafted In · Nov 24, 2015

I've accidentally stumbled into the Jehova's Witness forum again.....

Wgw · Nov 24, 2015

Grafted In said:
I've accidentally stumbled into the Jehova's Witness forum again.....

Alas non-Trinitarianism is not a problem exclusive to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

I made some edits to this original post adding in more logic at the end. The new stuff starts with the John 3:16 [ABP] quote.

Doveaman · Nov 27, 2015

cgaviria said:
Jesus Christ Did Pre-Exist, but He also Began. Only the Father Has No Beginning

brinny said:
....just wondering...

what names are announced for Jesus Christ at the announcing of His birth that defined Who He was?

*For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.* -- (Isa 9:6).

Doveaman · Nov 27, 2015

cgaviria said:
Jesus Christ Did Pre-Exist, but He also Began. Only the Father Has No Beginning

Man is a temporal human being.

Jesus was an eternal divine Spirit existing in the incarnate form of a temporal human being.

Jesus as a per-existing divine Spirit had no beginning.

Jesus as an incarnate human being had a beginning.

cgaviria · Nov 27, 2015

Doveaman said:
*For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.* -- (Isa 9:6).

Doveman, excellent scripture reference. Here is a better translation though,

For a child was born to us; a son was given to us, of whom the sovereignty became upon his shoulder; and [*2*is called *1*his name], [*2*of great *3*counsel *1*Messenger], wonderful, counselor, [*2*God *1*mighty], potentate, ruler of peace, father of the [*2*about to be *1*eon]. For I will bring peace upon the rulers, and his health. (Isaiah 9:6 [ABP])

The word "everlasting" is a mistranslation, it should've read "eon", which connotes a time that has a beginning and an end. Jesus Christ did indeed become the father, that is, the highest being, in the eon that was to come then, but now is in the present time, when he ascended to the right hand of the Father.

brinny · Nov 28, 2015

Doveaman said:
*For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.* -- (Isa 9:6).

Thank you.

brinny · Nov 28, 2015

cgaviria said:
Doveman, excellent scripture reference. Here is a better translation though,

For a child was born to us; a son was given to us, of whom the sovereignty became upon his shoulder; and [*2*is called *1*his name], [*2*of great *3*counsel *1*Messenger], wonderful, counselor, [*2*God *1*mighty], potentate, ruler of peace, father of the [*2*about to be *1*eon]. For I will bring peace upon the rulers, and his health. (Isaiah 9:6 [ABP])

The word "everlasting" is a mistranslation, it should've read "eon", which connotes a time that has a beginning and an end. Jesus Christ did indeed become the father, that is, the highest being, in the eon that was to come then, but now is in the present time, when he ascended to the right hand of the Father.

please elaborate on why "everlasting" would be removed and "replaced" with "eon", which you stated above is not "eternal"?

YHWH's Lion · Dec 2, 2015

cgaviria said:
It's possible because the Father does whatever he pleases and has chosen to put his fullness into being he has made. Divinity is not just limited to the Father, it is imparted to whomever he wishes to impart. Jesus Christ is the perfect image of the Father.

you said "the father imparts divinity to who ever he wants to" can you prove this statement from scripture?

YHWH's Lion · Dec 2, 2015

cgaviria said:
Something that is created can be made God. How? If the one that created it decided to make it its very own representation. Although the representation is lesser, it still reflects the very nature of the one that created it. So in following the representation, we are really following the Father.

that's just you opinion. you cannot prove that with scripture.

cgaviria · Dec 3, 2015

YHWH's Lion said:
that's just you opinion. you cannot prove that with scripture.

And the LORD said to Moses, saying, Behold, I have made you as a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother will be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1 [ABP])

God said to Moses, I have made you AS GOD to Pharaoh. In his creation, God chooses who he exalts and gives dominion. In the case of Moses, he was a TYPE of a God, because a greater one was to come, which was Jesus Christ, who by the authority the Father, created the world upon the earth, so he is indeed greater and is the HIGHEST of all the creation of God.

Wgw · Dec 3, 2015

cgaviria said:
And the LORD said to Moses, saying, Behold, I have made you as a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother will be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1 [ABP])

God said to Moses, I have made you AS GOD to Pharaoh. In his creation, God chooses who he exalts and gives dominion. In the case of Moses, he was a TYPE of a God, because a greater one was to come, which was Jesus Christ, who by the authority the Father, created the world upon the earth, so he is indeed greater and is the HIGHEST of all the creation of God.

This view has been proven conclusively to be unscriptural in another thread in this forum.

cgaviria · Dec 3, 2015

Wgw said:
This view has been proven conclusively to be unscriptural in another thread in this forum.

God gives his children dominion and EXALTS them as he exalted Jesus Christ, who is the highest of all creation. How then do you gather this scripture?

Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! (1 Corinthians 6:3)

In the time to come he will EXALT his people, to even judge angels.

Wgw · Dec 3, 2015

cgaviria said:
God gives his children dominion and EXALTS them as he exalted Jesus Christ, who is the highest of all creation. How then do you gather this scripture?

Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! (1 Corinthians 6:3)

In the time to come he will EXALT his people, to even judge angels.

Your position can be proven unscriptural by virtue of your rejection of canonical scripture such as Matthew 28:19. It can further be proven unscriptural even in light of scripture you accept, like John 1:1-14. And it has been done so, by myself, @Der Alter , @Berean777 , @Job8 and several other members, and indeed, we were able to show it to be false before any of us were aware that you completely reject various portions of sacred scripture you regard as inconvenient.

cgaviria · Dec 3, 2015

Wgw said:
Your position can be proven unscriptural by virtue of your rejection of canonical scripture such as Matthew 28:19. It can further be proven unscriptural even in light of scripture you accept, like John 1:1-14. And it has been done so, by myself, @Der Alter , @Berean777 , @Job8 and several other members, and indeed, we were able to show it to be false before any of us were aware that you completely reject various portions of sacred scripture you regard as inconvenient.

And this is precisely why the doctrine of the trinity is so misleading, because it takes away from the coming exaltation of the saints who will rule together with Jesus Christ. The house of God is not just a house of three, it is a family. It starts with God's first born son, Jesus Christ, then goes down to the other engendered sons of God who are birthed by the Spirit. The divinity of God is imparted by his holy spirit, even to these as well. How do you think it is said,

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. (1 John 3:9)

and also,

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

the saints will rule with Jesus Christ, which by very nature means the exaltation of the saints as well. As Jesus even said,

For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. (Matthew 23:12)
Why do you think Jesus Christ also says,

So the last will be first, and the first will be last. (Matthew 20:16)

The saints will be RAISED FROM THE DEAD, and given NEW IMMORTAL BODIES, AND WILL BE EXALTED IN THE TIME TO COME AT THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST. Hence why we also have this scripture,

For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:53)

Wgw · Dec 3, 2015

cgaviria said:
And this is precisely why the doctrine of the trinity is so misleading, because it takes away from the coming exaltation of the saints who will rule together with Jesus Christ. The house of God is not just a house of three, it is a family. It starts with God's first born son, Jesus Christ, then goes down to the other engendered sons of God who are birthed by the Spirit. The divinity of God is imparted by his holy spirit, even to these as well. How do you think it is said,

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. (1 John 3:9)

and also,

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

the saints will rule with Jesus Christ, which by very nature means the exaltation of the saints as well. As Jesus even said,

For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. (Matthew 23:12)
Why do you think Jesus Christ also says,

So the last will be first, and the first will be last. (Matthew 20:16)

The saints will be RAISED FROM THE DEAD, and given NEW IMMORTAL BODIES, AND WILL BE EXALTED IN THE TIME TO COME AT THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST. Hence why we also have this scripture,

For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:53)

Rather than responding to my criticism of your position, you basically accuse us of docetism.

cgaviria · Dec 3, 2015

Wgw said:
Rather than responding to my criticism of your position, you basically accuse us of docetism.

I accuse you of believing in the doctrine of the trinity that misleads people from realizing other important teachings. The trinity is a false doctrine that teaches man that Jesus Christ is the Father, which is a perverse interpretation of scripture and the very nature of what sonship is in relation to God. Sonship is the bringing forth into existence, as the Father never began. Jesus Christ was his only child, and through him did the Father create all living beings, which is why it is said that the "Word was in the beginning". Sonship also extends over to those that are born in the Spirit, and in them too, is the divinity of God imparted. Hence why I say, the trinity is a very misleading doctrine because it restricts the divinity of God to what they declare as the THREE, which in fact the divinity of God is passed to all his children through the Spirit.

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