Do you think it's Christian to own guns?

expos4ever

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But the first thing evil governments do is disarm their people - people are much better controlled if they can't fight back.
I think this argument does not apply anymore, certainly not in the USA where it's highly trained, super-high-tech military would only be slightly inconvenienced by an armed populace.

Besides, I suggest this notion that your government, or any freely elected government would turn on its own people seems rather far-fetched for reasons I do not think I need to explain. Can you think of any modern democratic nation which has turned on its own people in the last 60 or 70 years? Perhaps you will cite Germany circa 1935. Well, we can talk about that.

I would assert that the people in Canada, Australia, and Western Europe all want the restrictions on guns that are in place in these nations.

I know this "defence against tyranny" argument is often invoked in defence of gun rights, but I just do not see how it is plausible in the specific context of 21st century democracies with a long history of stable benign (at least benign in terms of subjugating its own people) government.
 
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nomadictheist

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I think this argument does not apply anymore, certainly not in the USA where it's highly trained, super-high-tech military would only be slightly inconvenienced by an armed populace.

Besides, I suggest this notion that your government, or any freely elected government would turn on its own people seems rather far-fetched for reasons I do not think I need to explain. Can you think of any modern democratic nation which has turned on its own people in the last 60 or 70 years? Perhaps you will cite Germany circa 1935. Well, we can talk about that.

I would assert that the people in Canada, Australia, and Western Europe all want the restrictions on guns that are in place in these nations.

I know this "defence against tyranny" argument is often invoked in defence of gun rights, but I just do not see how it is plausible in the specific context of 21st century democracies with a long history of stable benign (at least benign in terms of subjugating its own people) government.
Do you realize that these democratic nations you are citing have been operating under their current form of government for only a small amount of time compared to former empires that were all prosperous prior to their fall?

The government is as susceptible to corruption in the 21st century as it was in every era of history. If you want a reason, I can certainly give you one - power.

If a government holds all the power... If they have instituted laws and regulations that will make it well-nigh impossible for commoners to resist them... They have all the means to change the laws of "democracy" at any time that they would so desire. But things like that take time. The few hundred years that democratic countries have existed are hardly enough time to consider the lack of a democratic government turning on its citizens (unless, of course, you consider confining citizens of Japanese descent in the mid 20th century, or making laws that restrict those of certain skin colors from having the same rights as others, to give just two examples) as turning against its own citizens. However, the United States and most other western civilizations aren't even really democratic countries anymore. They're democratic-socialist.
 
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Anguspure

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Apart from those needing them for living - do you think people should own guns?
I cannot tie Jesus up with a gun-owner that has them for the sake of having them
A gun for the purpose of shooting a person? Not in line with the concept of laying down ones life for another really. So not for a disciple of Jesus.
On the other hand owning a gun for hunting for food or for other sporting/hobby purposes I can't see a problem if thats where God is leading us.
 
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jiminpa

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True. I assume the point is that Jews were allowed to be armed and that for Jesus to instruct His followers to be armed would not be seen as "transgression"? If so, I don't think that challenges my take on things. It may be legal in some American state to walk around with a six-shooter on your hip, but it will certainly raise suspicion among the law enforcement community.

And I still realize I have not fully addressed all your points.
Since the constitution is the law of the U.S., it is legal to carry in all states and all places, but usually not worth it to insist. All anti-gun laws in the U.S. are unlawful laws.
 
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I think this argument does not apply anymore, certainly not in the USA where it's highly trained, super-high-tech military would only be slightly inconvenienced by an armed populace.

Think again. An armed populace in rebellion against the government would be ungovernable. We just witnessed less than 10 armed terrorists in Paris shut down all of the commerce and most of the movement of people in some sections of Paris and Brussels.

I know this "defence against tyranny" argument is often invoked in defence of gun rights, but I just do not see how it is plausible in the specific context of 21st century democracies with a long history of stable benign (at least benign in terms of subjugating its own people) government.

Well let's see: Have you been subjugated? I would say you have. Your rulers can and do take--by force and coercion--as much of your income as they deem necessary. Your home is really the ruler's who in effect rent it to you, and if you fail to pay the rent (property tax)the will evict you. Putting your faith in democracy is rather foolish, I think. And, yes, Hitler was democratically elected in Germany and swiftly abrogated enough rights to make resistance to his awful tyranny virtually unthinkable--although a few brave souls did resist. A heavily armed German population could have stopped the Nazis dead in their tracks--If the so desired. But Hitler plied enough of the population with popular social programs--giveaways of other people's money or financed with deficits, at the suggestion of J.M. Keynes, I might add. Your rulers can draft your children into involuntary military servitude to fight the rulers wars. Even the chattel slaves in the American south didn't face that indignity. Of course people who are not free by have been convinced by government doublespeak that they are will never resist their rulers.
 
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A gun for the purpose of shooting a person? Not in line with the concept of laying down ones life for another really. So not for a disciple of Jesus.
On the other hand owning a gun for hunting for food or for other sporting/hobby purposes I can't see a problem if thats where God is leading us.

I agree wholeheartedly. Furthermore, support of gun-control legislation or any other restriction on individual freedom is not for disciples of Jesus. Of course voluntary participation in human government for any purpose or on any pretext is not for disciples of Jesus either.
 
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expos4ever

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Think again. An armed populace in rebellion against the government would be ungovernable. We just witnessed less than 10 armed terrorists in Paris shut down all of the commerce and most of the movement of people in some sections of Paris and Brussels.
Obviously not analagous. The government of France was defending its people not attacking them. The reason paris was shutdown was because the government was protecting the populace. If they did not care about the population, they could blasted the terrorists to kingdom come in very short order.
 
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ldonjohn

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I'm not going to debate this here.......but the short of it is.......

Christians divide the word, it is ONE Word. Your POV is of individual salvation yet you believe you are of the Bride of Christ. The Bride is Israel, which includes Judah, they will again become ONE.
Messiah was murdered on the stake to redeem Israel, the Bride, the WHOLE of the family of God. God will again marry Israel.
God gives us his instruction, to follow his instruction is to be a part of the WHOLE, Israel, the Bride, the family. If you were to read the OT you'd realize that God created family, HIS family is of the highest importance to him.

You are either in, or out, no other way to look at it.

You said you were not going to debate yet you debate. If you would read the New Testament you would realize that Christ died on the cross to redeem ALL of mankind. God's POV is that the church, born-again believers, is the Bride of Christ! You are wrong!
MY understanding of God's Word was/is the result of the Holy Spirit revealing the Truth to me as I study His Word. I do not follow the teaching of man. You cannot convince me that your POV is correct, and only God Himself can convince you that His POV is correct. There is no reason for debate here.
 
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Sheeple Shepherd

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You said you were not going to debate yet you debate. If you would read the New Testament you would realize that Christ died on the cross to redeem ALL of mankind. God's POV is that the church, born-again believers, is the Bride of Christ! You are wrong!
MY understanding of God's Word was/is the result of the Holy Spirit revealing the Truth to me as I study His Word. I do not follow the teaching of man. You cannot convince me that your POV is correct, and only God Himself can convince you that His POV is correct. There is no reason for debate here.
I know, there is no point to debate you.

What I posted is for others to ponder.

I'll leave you with this-
Proverbs 28:9
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law (Torah), even his prayer shall be abomination.
 
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ldonjohn

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I know, there is no point to debate you.

What I posted is for others to ponder.

I'll leave you with this-
Proverbs 28:9
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law (Torah), even his prayer shall be abomination.

Well, it seems that you can't resist debate. I certainly see no reason to debate this matter since it serves no purpose. Only the Holy Spirit can show us the truth.

I'm not sure if you are trying to insult me or warn me by “leaving me” with Proverbs 28:9. Either way I am not offended nor am I afraid. I have absolute peace in the message of the cross.

I will end my part of our “discussion” with scripture from the Gospel of John hopefully for others to ponder.

Matthew 5:7, Jesus said "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill,”

Jesus fulfilled the Law; he never sinned; He became the sinless sacrifice by shedding His blood for forgiveness of sins. Jesus is the Messiah of the Old Testament.

John 1:5, “And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”

John 1:11, “He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.”

John 1:17, “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

John 1:12, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.”

John 5:39, “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”

John 5:40, “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

For anyone who might be interested in reading my testimony of how the Holy Spirit, through God's Word in the Gospel of John, brought me out of the darkness of unbelief into the light of the truth of the Gospel message of the cross I am including a link to my testimony here at CF.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/my-testimony.7775300/

God bless everyone!

John
 
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Sheeple Shepherd

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Well, it seems that you can't resist debate. I certainly see no reason to debate this matter since it serves no purpose. Only the Holy Spirit can show us the truth.

I'm not sure if you are trying to insult me or warn me by “leaving me” with Proverbs 28:9. Either way I am not offended nor am I afraid. I have absolute peace in the message of the cross.

I will end my part of our “discussion” with scripture from the Gospel of John hopefully for others to ponder.

Matthew 5:7, Jesus said "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill,”

Jesus fulfilled the Law; he never sinned; He became the sinless sacrifice by shedding His blood for forgiveness of sins. Jesus is the Messiah of the Old Testament.

John 1:5, “And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”

John 1:11, “He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.”

John 1:17, “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

John 1:12, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.”

John 5:39, “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”

John 5:40, “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

For anyone who might be interested in reading my testimony of how the Holy Spirit, through God's Word in the Gospel of John, brought me out of the darkness of unbelief into the light of the truth of the Gospel message of the cross I am including a link to my testimony here at CF.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/my-testimony.7775300/

God bless everyone!

John
The word 'fulfill' actually means to preach fully, to bring forth.......does not mean completion as you think it does.
Messiah is not finished yet.
The new covenant is not yet realized.
No one is 'saved', yet.

And the only thing you are saved from is Himself upon his return.
Just as the Messiah killed the first born in Egypt, he will again, this time it will be billions of people.
 
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ldonjohn

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The word 'fulfill' actually means to preach fully, to bring forth.......does not mean completion as you think it does.
Messiah is not finished yet.
The new covenant is not yet realized.
No one is 'saved', yet.

And the only thing you are saved from is Himself upon his return.
Just as the Messiah killed the first born in Egypt, he will again, this time it will be billions of people.

Jesus did not come to preach the Law; He came to die on the cross for the sins of the world.

I agree that our bodies are not yet saved; that will happen at the rapture of the church. But the soul of every genuine Christian is saved at the moment he/she believes the Gospel.

Just before Jesus died on the cross He said "it is finished." Why in the world would I want to be saved from Him upon His return? As part of the church, the Bride of Christ, I will return with Him.

Again, you can't resist debating can you? You will never convince me that I am wrong and that you are right. My beliefs are based on the Word of God, all of it; not just the Old Testament.

Can we end this now?
 
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kljcmc

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Would it maybe be a better option to say that when the Government acts outside of the Law, that their behaviour is at best questionable and innapropriate, where it is up to its citizenry to non-violenty stand up against this improper (and probably illegal) behaviour. We have to ask ourselves if we could ever refer to a legally elected government (of any nation) as being illegal.


It's a good thing you weren't around some 200 years ago, you'd been against the Revolutionary War.
 
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Biblicist

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It's a good thing you weren't around some 200 years ago, you'd been against the Revolutionary War.
Yes, as a Christian my lifespan at the beginning of the first Civil War (1775-1783) would have probably been short as undoubtedly my fellow citizens would have probably killed me along with my family, unless I was able to escape to Canada as did many other Christians and secular Loyalists. Obviously the rebels notions of liberty and freedom of speech would not have applied to those who disagreed with them.

Would I have used a gun to defend my family against the rebels . . . probably.

Edit: Added date.
 
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Sheeple Shepherd

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Jesus did not come to preach the Law; He came to die on the cross for the sins of the world.

I agree that our bodies are not yet saved; that will happen at the rapture of the church. But the soul of every genuine Christian is saved at the moment he/she believes the Gospel.

Just before Jesus died on the cross He said "it is finished." Why in the world would I want to be saved from Him upon His return? As part of the church, the Bride of Christ, I will return with Him.

Again, you can't resist debating can you? You will never convince me that I am wrong and that you are right. My beliefs are based on the Word of God, all of it; not just the Old Testament.

Can we end this now?


Return where? Messiah returns to earth and rules HERE. No one goes to heaven, false teaching. Read John 3:13, and the concept is completely foreign to the OT (foreign to the NT for that matter).

The phrase "it is finished", that phrase was uttered when the priest would slit the throat of the sacrificial lamb, Messiah was the Lamb and ALSO the High Priest.

It would serve you well to study the OT, Torah, Tanach. Much of what Messiah spoke to was OT, without OT study you will have no understanding as to what he did or why.


and it was not a cross, cross is a pagan symbol. It was a stake or some will say a tree......definitely not a cross.
 
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ldonjohn

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Return where? Messiah returns to earth and rules HERE. No one goes to heaven, false teaching. Read John 3:13, and the concept is completely foreign to the OT (foreign to the NT for that matter).

The phrase "it is finished", that phrase was uttered when the priest would slit the throat of the sacrificial lamb, Messiah was the Lamb and ALSO the High Priest.

It would serve you well to study the OT, Torah, Tanach. Much of what Messiah spoke to was OT, without OT study you will have no understanding as to what he did or why.


and it was not a cross, cross is a pagan symbol. It was a stake or some will say a tree......definitely not a cross.

Wasting your time! lol
 
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Darkhorse

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It may be legal in some American state to walk around with a six-shooter on your hip, but it will certainly raise suspicion among the law enforcement community.

Actually, it's quite common in many U.S. states; as long as you're not waving it around and pointing it at people, you're OK.
 
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