Books on mystical visions by saints and blesseds and private revelation

Athanasias · Nov 21, 2015

Lately I have been drawn to both the mystical and preternatural. Mystical theology is really drawing me because I lacked so much study of it in my life but had friends who were steeped in it. So my in my current mystical spiritual theological studies of the Christian faith I am reading and learning more about the enemy and his attacks on the Church and humanity, about devotion to the saints, and most especially the Mother of God and true devotion to Jesus through Mary. I am drawn to how Satan hates Mary and how she is Mother for all Christians leading us to her Son Christ Jesus the king. You may have already guessed that if you read any of my other post/debates.

Mary has been drawing me into a deeper relationship with her for years and of course from her to a deeper and more profound relationship with Christ Jesus our Lord. Its amazing how She does that.

I am new to this kind of study(of the spiritual) but am fascinated. Later this month I will be reading an account of Mary's hidden life given by a approved Catholic mystic Called "The mystical city of God" by the Venerable Mary of Agreda. It really sounds neat and deals with things like the creation of the world, Jesus hidden life, and Mary's numerous visits to heaven during her life on earth. It will be a enlightening read and add to my understanding of things learned from public divine revelation. After I study this book and some other ones on the saints who battled satan I plan in doing a more in depth prayerful study of the writings of the Church fathers. That can take years but there is a good book called "a year with the Church fathers" for prayerful meditation that sounds neat for starters.

I have also begun reading the very short private revelation of Our Lady of Akita which has Church approval. I have had several faithful theologian friends and now a good transitional deacon at my store tell me today to read it because they believe it deals with some of the present problems between the Cardinals and Bishops and possible future chastisements. I ponder this and put my trust in the Church. One thing I can say Our Lady gave us in this apparition/private revelation wrought with plenty of miracles tested by modern science, a great prayer to be prayed with the heart in addition to the rosary which is powerful itself. I may start praying it. Here it is:

“Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, truly present in the Holy Eucharist, I consecrate my body and soul to be entirely one with Your Heart, being sacrificed at every instant on all the altars of the world and giving praise to the Father, pleading for the coming of His Kingdom. Please receive this humble offering of myself. Use me as You will for the glory of the Father and the salvation of souls.

“Most Holy Mother of God. Never let me be separated from Your Divine Son. Please defend and protect me as Your special child. Amen.”

Just wanted to share that. I know some of you in your own traditions may have mystical saints also with great messages of prayer and hope. Feel free to share the ones you have from your tradition as well. Mystical theology is starting to pull me. There is so much good stuff to choose from and so many saints.

God bless you!

In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasais

~Anastasia~ · Nov 21, 2015

You've posted some interesting things. Obviously there are going to be some differences between us - to be honest, I'm not sure Orthodoxy would embrace any of this.

We do of course see the Theotokos as very special, one who protects and prays for us, and essential in the establishment of the Church and the Faith as the one who gave flesh to Christ our true God. Her early life had mystical aspects we recognize.

But I'm not sure of most of what you posted, from our point of view.

I've long been drawn to mystical theology too. But without guidance in the past, it has led to problems for me. And now I am under the guidance of a spiritual father, and for the time being he has restricted my reading, preferring instead that I establish a particular foundation first.

So I can't say much about it, but what I read previously of the experiences of St. Silhouan particularly interest me. He had very direct experience of God, which was then withdrawn for a period of growth before being restored. He teaches much about the stages of Christian growth and experience.

Similar teachings and experiences of many of the Saints fascinate me.

On a simpler level, my first introduction many years ago was the book by Brother Lawrence on the Practice of the Presence of God. I believe he was a Catholic monk? Madame Jean Guyon's teachings on prayer at the same time proved very fruitful as an introduction, though I needed a guide at that time and didn't have one. Constant prayerfulness, remembrance of God, and stillness before God are a powerful combination.

Lord have mercy, I should not call that "simple". It seemed so, and in a way it is, but I think these are the doorway. I cannot stress enough though that such should NOT be attempted without guidance. (I'm not saying this so much for you, Athanasius - you probably know this, but because anyone could read this.) But this is essentially the basis of Orthodox hesychasm, and there are far too many examples we have of very wily traps set by the enemy along the way, deceiving even the Saints at times. So no one - no one - should feel exempt from guidance in this. I cannot help but feel it is an essential path for ardently pursuing God, but I do know one should never presume.

I'm not sure if this is along the lines of what you're thinking.

mark46 · Nov 21, 2015

Kylissa said:
On a simpler level, my first introduction many years ago was the book by Brother Lawrence on the Practice of the Presence of God. I believe he was a Catholic monk? Madame Jean Guyon's teachings on prayer at the same time proved very fruitful as an introduction, though I needed a guide at that time and didn't have one. Constant prayerfulness, remembrance of God, and stillness before God are a powerful combination.

Brother Lawrence was a 17th Century monk. Here are some snippets.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/66573.Brother_Lawrence

mark46 · Nov 21, 2015

Kylissa said:
You've posted some interesting things. Obviously there are going to be some differences between us - to be honest, I'm not sure Orthodoxy would embrace any of this.

We do of course see the Theotokos as very special, one who protects and prays for us, and essential in the establishment of the Church and the Faith as the one who gave flesh to Christ our true God. Her early life had mystical aspects we recognize.

But I'm not sure of most of what you posted, from our point of view.

I've long been drawn to mystical theology too. But without guidance in the past, it has led to problems for me. And now I am under the guidance of a spiritual father, and for the time being he has restricted my reading, preferring instead that I establish a particular foundation first.

So I can't say much about it, but what I read previously of the experiences of St. Silhouan particularly interest me. He had very direct experience of God, which was then withdrawn for a period of growth before being restored. He teaches much about the stages of Christian growth and experience.

Similar teachings and experiences of many of the Saints fascinate me.

On a simpler level, my first introduction many years ago was the book by Brother Lawrence on the Practice of the Presence of God. I believe he was a Catholic monk? Madame Jean Guyon's teachings on prayer at the same time proved very fruitful as an introduction, though I needed a guide at that time and didn't have one. Constant prayerfulness, remembrance of God, and stillness before God are a powerful combination.

Lord have mercy, I should not call that "simple". It seemed so, and in a way it is, but I think these are the doorway. I cannot stress enough though that such should NOT be attempted without guidance. (I'm not saying this so much for you, Athanasius - you probably know this, but because anyone could read this.) But this is essentially the basis of Orthodox hesychasm, and there are far too many examples we have of very wily traps set by the enemy along the way, deceiving even the Saints at times. So no one - no one - should feel exempt from guidance in this. I cannot help but feel it is an essential path for ardently pursuing God, but I do know one should never presume.

I'm not sure if this is along the lines of what you're thinking.

I don't understand your comment regarding hesychasm.

In the West, many of us have used the word "mysticism" to simply describe the inner life of the saints. Unlike the East, many of the saints have given us personal accounts of their spiritual walks, and much good advice I think.

The words of the mystics are a critical part of our walk. As I look at a book about praying through advent, there are daily passages. Many are from names that many of us know: Brother Lawrence, Thomas a Kempis, Julian Of Norwich, and Thomas Merton.

We are enriched by the many books discussing the desert fathers and mothers, primarily from Egypt and Syria. There are so many spiritual books.

I agree that one must be more careful when one is discussing spiritual disciplines such as those of Jean Guyon or Ignatius or others. However, many of these have had a long wonderful history within the Church. Certainly, the books by St John of the Cross fall into this category.

The East had a complicated debate regarding mysticism so many centuries ago. I guess one way to understand and to avoid excesses is to read spiritual writers like Lossky on the subject. Another (better) is to have a spiritual director.
========
My bottom line is that we should not reject mysticism in the sense that we use the word it the West. The inner life is the very path we take each day as we come more and more conformed into the Energies of God, through the process the East calls "theosis" and we call "deification".

The East often avoids mystical practices. Curiously, the West has a different problem. Many reject even the idea of deification, although so many of Church Fathers taught that we are to become God. As the East understands, this means in His energies, not in His essence.

~Anastasia~ · Nov 21, 2015

mark46 said:
Brother Lawrence was a 17th Century monk. Here are some snippets.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/66573.Brother_Lawrence

I might like to re-read it again soon. It's been a few years maybe. I wonder how my perceptions might have changed, since I have a broader base of readings now ...

Cappadocious · Nov 21, 2015

mark46 said:
In the West, many of us have used the word "mysticism" to simply describe the inner life of the saints....The East often avoids mystical practices.

I don't think the latter is the case. I think that what you are seeing is two different understandings of "inner life". For you, is the inner life an inner place? Does it involve an inner place?

mark46 · Nov 21, 2015

Cappadocious said:
I don't think the latter is the case. I think that what you are seeing is two different understandings of "inner life". For you, is the inner life an inner place? Does it involve an inner place?

My point is that mysticism and mystical practices have a very different place in the present day Eastern and Western churches, and indeed in the churches over the past 500 years.

My understanding is that the current view of hesychasm is negative by many Orthodox who avoid mystical practices, absent a spiritual advisor. If I have this wrong, I apologize.

In the West, there is a long tradition of mysticism and spiritual practices that are available and useful to the lay person. If course, there are also many in the West who disapprove of these practices.

Cappadocious · Nov 23, 2015

mark46 said:
My understanding is that the current view of hesychasm is negative by many Orthodox who avoid mystical practices, absent a spiritual advisor. If I have this wrong, I apologize.

Hesychasm is a specific subset of mystical ascetical practice. It does not = mysticism in the Orthodox Church as such.

mark46 said:
In the West, there is a long tradition of mysticism and spiritual practices that are available and useful to the lay person.

And I would argue that they are often based on a different understanding of inner life as involving an inner space.

Athanasias · Nov 24, 2015

Kylissa said:
You've posted some interesting things. Obviously there are going to be some differences between us - to be honest, I'm not sure Orthodoxy would embrace any of this.

We do of course see the Theotokos as very special, one who protects and prays for us, and essential in the establishment of the Church and the Faith as the one who gave flesh to Christ our true God. Her early life had mystical aspects we recognize.

But I'm not sure of most of what you posted, from our point of view.

I've long been drawn to mystical theology too. But without guidance in the past, it has led to problems for me. And now I am under the guidance of a spiritual father, and for the time being he has restricted my reading, preferring instead that I establish a particular foundation first.

So I can't say much about it, but what I read previously of the experiences of St. Silhouan particularly interest me. He had very direct experience of God, which was then withdrawn for a period of growth before being restored. He teaches much about the stages of Christian growth and experience.

Similar teachings and experiences of many of the Saints fascinate me.

On a simpler level, my first introduction many years ago was the book by Brother Lawrence on the Practice of the Presence of God. I believe he was a Catholic monk? Madame Jean Guyon's teachings on prayer at the same time proved very fruitful as an introduction, though I needed a guide at that time and didn't have one. Constant prayerfulness, remembrance of God, and stillness before God are a powerful combination.

Lord have mercy, I should not call that "simple". It seemed so, and in a way it is, but I think these are the doorway. I cannot stress enough though that such should NOT be attempted without guidance. (I'm not saying this so much for you, Athanasius - you probably know this, but because anyone could read this.) But this is essentially the basis of Orthodox hesychasm, and there are far too many examples we have of very wily traps set by the enemy along the way, deceiving even the Saints at times. So no one - no one - should feel exempt from guidance in this. I cannot help but feel it is an essential path for ardently pursuing God, but I do know one should never presume.

I'm not sure if this is along the lines of what you're thinking.

Thanks for this. Yes practicing presence is powerful and we often forget to do that in society with all the hustle and bustle. I am drawn to quiet Eucharistic adoration and meditation especially with the rosary. I am pretty simple. I have seen and felft and experienced some profound experiences and personal miracles on at least 3 or 4 occasions with the holy rosary of Mary. My favorite spiritual writings of the saints include "Introduction to the devout life" by St. Francis Desales, "the Soul of the apostolate" by
Dom Jean-Baptiste Chautard, "My imitation of Christ" by Thomas Kempis, and St. Teresa's of Avila's "Interior castles". But i have also been drawn to modern ones such as "Consoling the heart of Jesus" which gives much emphasis on St. Therese the little flower and St. Faustinas in consoling the divine heart of Christ and entering more profoundly into the divine life .

I think your wise for using a spiritual director. Some writings will be harder then others to understand depending on the level of spirituality your at. I know St. John of the Cross' "Dark night of the soul" was very hard for me( I even gave up) because I am nowhere near being close to that level of holiness. I am always hovering around the "purgative stage" of the soul. That is why I like the meditations and spiritual practices and insights from St. Francis Desales Intro to the devout life.

at any rate as long as the Church generally approves I usually have no issue with reading the mystics. Venerable Mary of Agreda seemed to be held in high esteem from many Bishops and Popes so I feel comfortable reading her stuff. I think it will be intriguing getting more insight into the creation of man and women, and Mary's life(not that these are considered 100% true or infallible as the Church has not said offiicially and allows a certain freedom here but they have not condemned her writings and many have celebrated them). She will give me solid stuff to think about that will make spiritual connections far more then most bible scholars who would deny anything supernatural today would.

I can honestly say I am not aware of Eastern Spiritual practices but I have a friend who is a Catholic who used to be Orthodox and he tells me the practices of spirituality are very similar between the two but come out in different ways in different expressions but head toward the same goal of gaining a closer walk in the divine nature.

Tangible · Nov 29, 2015

Seek the Lord where he has promised to be found. As I'm sure you know, we Lutherans don't go in for mystical practices. It's all too subjective for us, too uncertain, too prone to misleading. We do not seek an unmediated experience of God because we don't see that turning out well in the scriptures. Those who were granted an unmediated experience of God were chosen by God and had no choice but to receive them for a specific purpose. They didn't go looking for them or cultivate practices that were supposed to produce them just for their personal curiosity or their own (sinful? covetousness) desire for a higher level of spirituality (like others have had).

Athanasias · Nov 29, 2015

Tangible said:
Seek the Lord where he has promised to be found. As I'm sure you know, we Lutherans don't go in for mystical practices. It's all too subjective for us, too uncertain, too prone to misleading. We do not seek an unmediated experience of God because we don't see that turning out well in the scriptures. Those who were granted an unmediated experience of God were chosen by God and had no choice but to receive them for a specific purpose. They didn't go looking for them or cultivate practices that were supposed to produce them just for their personal curiosity or their own (sinful? covetousness) desire for a higher level of spirituality (like others have had).

Well the big difference for us is the Church. We have a very different understanding of Ecclesia or the Church and its authority. For us if the Church approves of these practices or mystics we feel we have a solid ground for reading and practicing them.

Tangible · Nov 29, 2015

I guess the main question I would have is this - Why do you seek an unmediated experience of God?

~Anastasia~ · Nov 29, 2015

Tangible said:
They didn't go looking for them or cultivate practices that were supposed to produce them just for their personal curiosity or their own (sinful? covetousness) desire for a higher level of spirituality (like others have had).

Actually, your reason for desire had me recoiling in horror. Those indeed would not turn out well. The Church knows this full well and warns against it.

The only legitimate reason(s) I can think of for such a pursuit is for the sake of the love of God, to be in closer communion with Him, to be always in remembrance of Him, to be aware of His Presence, to remain constantly in prayer in one's heart.

We do NOT seek "spiritual experiences" for their own sake (curiosity?) nor for the reason of our own "ability" to do so (pride, which easily leads to delusion). There is a saying - if one seeks after spiritual experiences, the demons are more than happy to provide them!

So this:

Tangible said:
I guess the main question I would have is this - Why do you seek an unmediated experience of God?

is indeed the main question!

ETA: It was interesting to me to note, when a layperson or monk has a spiritual experience and relates it to his spiritual father, the usual advice is to treat it as if it is a lying demon - that often turns out to be the case.

Tangible · Nov 29, 2015

Kylissa said:
Actually, your reason for desire had me recoiling in horror. Those indeed would not turn out well. The Church knows this full well and warns against it.

The only legitimate reason(s) I can think of for such a pursuit is for the sake of the love of God, to be in closer communion with Him, to be always in remembrance of Him, to be aware of His Presence, to remain constantly in prayer in one's heart.

We do NOT seek "spiritual experiences" for their own sake (curiosity?) nor for the reason of our own "ability" to do so (pride, which easily leads to delusion). There is a saying - if one seeks after spiritual experiences, the demons are more than happy to provide them!

So this:

is indeed the main question!

ETA: It was interesting to me to note, when a layperson or monk has a spiritual experience and relates it to his spiritual father, the usual advice is to treat it as if it is a lying demon - that often turns out to be the case.

Thus you understand our reticence to pursue mysticism.

Athanasias · Nov 29, 2015

Tangible said:
I guess the main question I would have is this - Why do you seek an unmediated experience of God?

not sure what you mean?

Athanasias · Nov 29, 2015

spirits have to be tested. A good spiritual director could help you. Sometimes when 20th century healer, mystic, stigmatic, and saint Padre Pio was visited by Mary he would test that spirit and make her praise her Son. If she would not it was clear to him that she was not the true Mary and often would eventually reveal the form of a demon.

But most spiritual exercises are not based upon supernatural experience of communication with a saint in a that way. Most exercises in Catholic spiritual theology deal with getting closer to Jesus or the Trinity and entering more profoundly in the divine life or divinization. If supernatural apparitions occur because of the level of sanctity entered into then those must be tested and judged personally and then by the Church her Bishops and her revelation. Often times the holier you get the more satan tries to mess with you. St Padre Pio was beaten physically by demons and they would try to trick him because they knew they could not get him with normal temptations as he reached a level of sanctity that overcame most of those.

~Anastasia~ · Nov 29, 2015

Tangible said:
Thus you understand our reticence to pursue mysticism.

Yes, actually I do. I spent some years identifying myself as Pentecostal or charismatic. Not because I pursued mystical experiences purposely - as far as I knew I was being a good Baptist (the kind of Baptist who doesn't do that sort of thing). But serious pursuit of God (along with a lack of understanding of what one is doing) can lead to not only deeper communion, but there is risk of deception there as well. Before I would simply walk that path again in the same way with the same lack of knowledge and guidance - I would abandon it. It would be safer.

Athanasias said:
spirits have to be tested. A good spiritual director could help you. Sometimes when 20th century healer, mystic, stigmatic, and saint Padre Pio was visited by Mary he would test that spirit and make her praise her Son. If she would not it was clear to him that she was not the true Mary and often would eventually reveal the form of a demon.

But most spiritual exercises are not based upon supernatural experience of communication with a saint in a that way. Most exercises in Catholic spiritual theology deal with getting closer to Jesus or the Trinity and entering more profoundly in the divine life or divinization. If supernatural apparitions occur because of the level of sanctity entered into then those must be tested and judged personally and then by the Church her Bishops and her revelation. Often times the holier you get the more satan tries to mess with you. St Padre Pio was beaten physically by demons and they would try to trick him because they knew they could not get him with normal temptations as he reached a level of sanctity that overcame most of those.

Yes, true, most "mysticism" simply involves deeper communion, and not apparitions of some sort. (I add this to my answer to Tangible because I think that's an important point. We are not necessarily talking about conversing with visible angels or Saints, or seeing the uncreated light, etc. Simply seeking God more deeply in prayer is a step on that same ladder.)

Apparitions appearing to anyone not VERY sanctified would probably always be a red flag for possible deception, from an Orthodox point of view. Deception is possible even without reaching such an experience though.

I begin to understand the wisdom of those who pray many hours a day having transparency of thought and experience with a guide who can see the signs one is beginning to slip into deception.

I suppose the more one pursues communion with God, the more care one must take. Those are more likely the ones most targeted by the enemy as well.

Athanasias · Nov 29, 2015

Kylissa said:
Yes, actually I do. I spent some years identifying myself as Pentecostal or charismatic. Not because I pursued mystical experiences purposely - as far as I knew I was being a good Baptist (the kind of Baptist who doesn't do that sort of thing). But serious pursuit of God (along with a lack of understanding of what one is doing) can lead to not only deeper communion, but there is risk of deception there as well. Before I would simply walk that path again in the same way with the same lack of knowledge and guidance - I would abandon it. It would be safer.

Yes, true, most "mysticism" simply involves deeper communion, and not apparitions of some sort. (I add this to my answer to Tangible because I think that's an important point. We are not necessarily talking about conversing with visible angels or Saints, or seeing the uncreated light, etc. Simply seeking God more deeply in prayer is a step on that same ladder.)

Apparitions appearing to anyone not VERY sanctified would probably always be a red flag for possible deception, from an Orthodox point of view. Deception is possible even without reaching such an experience though.

I begin to understand the wisdom of those who pray many hours a day having transparency of thought and experience with a guide who can see the signs one is beginning to slip into deception.

I suppose the more one pursues communion with God, the more care one must take. Those are more likely the ones most targeted by the enemy as well.

well said. amen!

I guess I should also mention that if there are mystics and saints who have private revelations such as the ones I am reading on Mary's life the Church does not require anyone to believe it. We only must believe public revelation in scripture and sacred apostolic tradition. If the Church approves of a mystic/saint and thier messages or private revelations one can believe in them(its up to each individual Catholic) but they never are required to. When I was younger I was more skeptical and did not put alot of stock in some of them but the more I study and pray and the older I get I am beginning to believe in them and the truth they tell. So many of them all fit together nicely and say the same type of stuff. Anyway the Book on the Blessed Virgins Mary's hidden Life by Venerable Mary of Agreda seems really good so for and is giving me food for scriptural thought on mystical interpretations. I am liking it.

Cappadocious · Dec 3, 2015

Tangible said:
I guess the main question I would have is this - Why do you seek an unmediated experience of God?

Because the idea of mediated experience is a recent one and is harmful. At least in the sense used here.

~Anastasia~ · Dec 3, 2015

Athanasias said:
well said. amen!

I guess I should also mention that if there are mystics and saints who have private revelations such as the ones I am reading on Mary's life the Church does not require anyone to believe it. We only must believe public revelation in scripture and sacred apostolic tradition. If the Church approves of a mystic/saint and thier messages or private revelations one can believe in them(its up to each individual Catholic) but they never are required to. When I was younger I was more skeptical and did not put alot of stock in some of them but the more I study and pray and the older I get I am beginning to believe in them and the truth they tell. So many of them all fit together nicely and say the same type of stuff. Anyway the Book on the Blessed Virgins Mary's hidden Life by Venerable Mary of Agreda seems really good so for and is giving me food for scriptural thought on mystical interpretations. I am liking it.

That's good to hear, is my first impression. I thought there were some private revelations approved by the Catholic Church that were dogmatized? I might be remembering wrongly though.

I can't imagine private revelation being dogmatized by the Orthodox Church. It just doesn't seem to work that way.

Books on mystical visions by saints and blesseds and private revelation

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