Jesus died for a future world, not this world.

Aijalon

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In Jesus' prayer in John 17 he prays "not for the world" but for the chosen. The account of this prayer is the time in which Jesus is sweating-shedding his blood (Matthew's account) in the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus literally prayed his blood over the earth, and when he did this, he claimed all the sin of the saints - declaring himself "sorrowful even unto death". How then is this prayer reconciled with the world of John 3:16-17?

The answer I believe is simply because John was the apostle who inherited Jesus' prophetic mantle, and as such, speaks and writes in a prophetic way - he is speaking of the redeemed world of a future time. The world which Jesus loves and died for, is something he is intent on changing. He will change it by redeeming his children (the harvest wheat), and by destroying the sons of the devil (tares). The world is a mixed bag at this time, and God does not love just all of the world for the world is also a synonym for "worldliness". The saints are presently "not of this world" because Jesus keeps them in his bosom and has separated them spiritually, while yet "in the world". The world today is not what Jesus loves, far from it.

When the topic of discussion is final redemption from death (resurrection) the object is a world of purified holy and immortal saints. That is the world that is in mind in John 3. Jesus has the plans all worked out, he is planning on redeeming his lost sheep. When he speaks of this future event of redemption (it comes at the time he redeems us from death, not when he freed us from sin-bondage through justification) he is simply looking forward in time.

Last of all, the world is expressed in the imagery of a woman. The harlot of Revelation 17 who rides the dragon is the world, God hates her and her uncleanness. He plans to kill her, and in her place the woman from the wilderness-in-the-Spirit, will be raised up to glory. The twin sisters of Revelation and their respective twin cities tell this story vividly, echoing the old testament accounts which also prophetically foretell the same prophecy

Sarah/Hagar
Leah/Rachel
Samaria-Israel/Judah

These two women/cities/worlds, are not the same in God's mind's-eye. They only happen to coexist in our present reality. The future 'kosmos' (world/the-all-things) will going be remade at his coming.

Now comes the issue of the Passover, and Jesus death on the Cross. This matter of Law was a Jewish matter. Did the death on the cross cleanse all the sin of all the world? I say - No.

The prayer in the Garden was important, and cannot be dealt with entire by itself, the prayer goes hand in hand with the sin payment, which was the death of the Lamb. The day of Atonement is important here, because that day involves a High Priest, and a Lamb. In order that Jesus become the Lamb of Sacrifice, he must die as a sin-payment. But before his death he was ALREADY a High Priest. At the Day of Atonement, the High Priest "appointed in his Father's place" must sprinkle the blood of the lamb and send off the scapegoat. The scapegoat was, obviously, Barabbas. The atonement of Israel's sins was what takes place, and as the church inheritied the spiritual promises of Israel, the church then, is what receives the atonement, not the whole world. For example, Moab did not receive atonement by Israel's day of Atonement. By the same token, the sinful unrepentant world cannot receive atonement by the church's sacraments.

Clearly, the repentant hearts of the church, exemplified by the material nation of Israel gathering before the High Priest is the definition of atonement. The fact that Israel was inclusive of sojourners and visitors who adopted it as their nation suggests that atonement is only given "freely" to those who repent and "come out" of the nations around Israel.

Therefore you must COME OUT and BE SEPARATE from the world, otherwise you cannot receive atonement. Atonement and forgiveness are one and the same. Hateful, unrepentant people, shall not be forgiven - Matthew 18:35.
 

sdowney717

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When I read Jesus not praying for the world, but only for those the father has given Him, I think what does Jesus pray?
He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
He ever lives to make intercession for them and He helps only them which are the children of God to be saved. Hebrews 2

What a great God we have!

Christ institutes and speaks of this new covenant in His blood, in that old covenant sins we committed under the first covenant we have been set free of them. This new and greater covenant is of surpassing glory compared to the ministry of condemnation (old covenant) which was also glorious.

Heb 9
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.


The world of John 3:16 is the world beyond Israel. At the first Israel was that chosen nation of God, a people set apart from all the other nations. That old covenant is done away, it has passed away by the institution of the new covenant.
Now God will have from every tribe, tongue, peoples and nations drawn out of the world a people to sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, in the coming age of the resurrection.

Great and wonderful stuff here in Heb 8.
He writes His law into their hearts and minds those who are a part of this new covenant. Great verse to prove God overrides the minds and will, the nature and heart of unregenerate men to make them born of God who are born of HIS will and not the will of men. John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Hebrews 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I think it is very ok for a Christian to say they don't know. Sometimes it is made out by other Christians like we have less than others if we admit we do not know something.

But then I think of the other side of the coin, which is someone who thinks they ALREADY KNOW it all. Those people are the one's that cannot be taught by the Holy Spirit because they have already formed what they think is truth.

What I am trying to say is I think we get too loosey-goosey with God's Word. And the problem with that is we start down a path of adding our own thinking to the words that we read in the Bible.

My stance is if God's Word doesn't say it directly then "I don't know" for sure.

I think this is the way we should approach scripture. Not needing to know everything, but making sure that the things we do know are correct.
 
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Ron Gurley

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OP: Q1: "Jesus died FOR a future "world", not this "world".

A1: Dead wrong. If you are right, then Mankind is "dead in their sins".

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if (imputed)righteousness comes through the (Mosiac) "Law", then Christ died needlessly.”

ATONEMENT ~= RECONCILIATION (all NASB)

Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God THROUGH the death of His Son,
much more, having been reconciled, we shall (certain to) be saved (SANCTIFIED) by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all these things are from God,
who reconciled us to Himself THROUGH Christ and
gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

Colossians 1:22
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death,
in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

SUBSTITUTION ~ Jesus died FOR you..in your place

1 Peter 2:24
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross,
so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness;
for by His wounds you were healed.

1 Peter 2
18 For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all,
the just (Jesus) FOR the unjust (Man),
so that He might bring us to God, (RECONCILIATION)
having been put to death in the flesh, (CRUCIFIXION)
but made alive in the spirit; (RESURRECTION + APPEARANCES + ASCENSION)

Romans 5:6,8
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died FOR the ungodly....
But God demonstrates His own love toward us,
in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR us.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died FOR our sins according to the Scriptures,

2 Corinthians 5:21...IMPUTED RIGHTEOUNESS
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin ON OUR BEHALF, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Colossians 2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us;
and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I would also hope that the people who think that Christ died for the next world will read Romans 4, 5 and 6.

It specifically tells us what happens when we are saved. We die to sin as CHrist did and we spiritually go through all the things Christ did so that He is creating a NEW creation in us.

That is happening now.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The answer I believe is simply because John was the apostle who inherited Jesus' prophetic mantle, and as such, speaks and writes in a prophetic way
Where did/ does this idea come from ? (concerning John specifically, or is that just for this thread?)
 
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