Salvation, Authority of the Church, and other Orthodox beliefs

All4Christ

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All4Christ

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@civilwarbuff 's post
Regarding what you wrote - It was very difficult for me to consider the authority issue, and that was one of the last things that I had to deal with before I became Orthodox. I know it is a polar opposite viewpoint to what most Evangelicals believe. If you want, I'd be happy to share some of the reasons I reconsidered my thoughts on the matter. No pressure though.
I would love for you to share, always open to hearing a different perspective. My belief is that all believers are the Church and as such the Bible was written for US....and with the help of the Holy Spirit to read, explore, and understand the will of God in our lives....don't mean to preach.....

Regarding our salvation, there is a common saying among the Orthodox to describe this. We were saved, are being saved, and God willing, we will be saved. Yes, there is a point that I can point back to for the first time that I decided to believe in Jesus Christ. There is a point where I was baptized, and later in life chrismated into the Orthodox Church. Every day, there is another point that I have to decide to keep following God.

I am going to share my testimony with you....something I rarely do with anyone simply because it is so intensely personal. I know others will see it but so be it. Even now I am wiping tears away and I have not even started telling my story.....I was about 29 and attending a Nazarene Church. They were having a revival (Nazarene's love their revivals). He was preaching on Revelation (don't remember exactly what). After he was done he had his altar call (Nazarene's love altar call even more than revivals) asking that if the Lord came that night would you be ready? I asked myself that question and then I asked God....Was I ready? I kept asking for what seemed like several minutes but I am sure was much less. For years I always said I heard the words, but in reality I felt the words throughout my body, 2 words: TRUST ME. It knocked me to my knees and if there had not be a pew in front of me to grab hold of I would have been flat on the floor. I was in the presence of the Almighty God and even now I can't stop crying over the power I felt that night. It was awesome and amazing and terrifying all at the same time and even tonight I can still feel His power. That night I know I was saved. While I appreciate your perspective on salvation maybe you can understand mine.
Eyes dried, nose blown....manliness reestablished....just kidding


Paul said that we need to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

One of my favorites but I have always viewed this in the context of OSAS in that salvation can be lost therefore you must continue to nurture it.

Not everyone who confesses our Lord Jesus will be saved. Matthew 7:21

A mouth may say one thing but a heart something else....

Can faith save us without the accompanying Christian life?
This again, is a favorite but I always include the next verse: 18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from [thy] works, and I by my works will show thee [my] faith.
Paul says we are justified before God by faith not works so none may boast (another fav). James says we are justified before men by works so that they may see our faith. If you have Christ within you, works become second nature.
We are called to repent, baptize and receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38
Salvation begins with our repentance, followed by our baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit. We need to continue working out our salvation, to 'run the good race', throughout our life, choosing every day and every moment to follow God.
I just had an epiphany...I think. I have read that scripture and always thought I had skipped the baptism part before I received the HS. It just occurred to me that I was baptized as an infant....nothing got skipped. God knows even if I don't.
Thank you All4Christ. I may have more questions if you don't mind.....
 
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All4Christ

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Thanks for sharing your personal testimony, and please know that I consider it to be a genuine experience. I merely suggest that you be open to the awareness that many of us have such experiences in the early stages of our repentance. But our continued experience has taught us that these are gifts given in order to compel us to progress higher and deeper into Truth. In other words, those early gifts are just a beginning, repentance doesn't end there, and we can neglect the right path and wind up in a worse condition than before (Luke 11:26). This nature of things we understand applies to all persons, and not just to those who don't qualify as OSAS persons.

Still, we don't despair over whether we'll be saved or not. We who by repentance have come to know the mercy of God, are merciful too. And because we don't judge, neither do we fret excessively about being judged (Matthew 5:7). Now I'll mind my own business. Please pardon my interruption.
 
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All4Christ

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I won't dispute that the Bible is for us all! I would dispute that individualistic guidance of the Holy Spirit promotes consistent understanding of Scripture. Why do I think that? There are a million different interpretations of Scripture that all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Since God is not a God of confusion, I have a hard time accepting that God would guide people to have so many interpretations, hence causing division of the Body of Christ. Just my two cents :) I'll explain a some more later. There are other reasons I have as well. I understand where you are coming from though.



Thank you for sharing your testimony! It sounds like a beautiful experience, and I would agree with @truefiction1 that I believe 100% that it is genuine. I believe that God provides these experiences for our salvation. So often, we become complacent in our lives, and we have this tendency to feel like we are ok and that our lives are good enough. God reaches out to us and gives us these experiences, making us realize that God is with us and that we need to trust in God for His support through our lives and for our salvation. So yes, I definitely understand your perspective, and I definitely believe that experience was from God. I'm sure it has impacted your life daily from that point, just as some experiences I had prior to becoming Orthodox have impacted my life daily. They are gifts from God, and we treasure them deeply. I also know what you mean by saying that you know that you were saved that night

That said, I believe that those experiences are starts of our journey. Perhaps you would be willing to hear a bit more of my thoughts on the matter? My previous post was a small bit of our views on salvation, but does not cover the entirety of it. Likewise, since we have a very holistic view of salvation in my opinion, there are many aspects of salvation that are all true :)


EDIT: Apparently, I wrote a post that is too long (sorry for the length!) so I'll separate it into two. :)

Regarding Philippians 2:12 (Paul said that we need to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.)

Yes, I understood it that way for years as well. In a sense, that isn't far from what we believe either. Remember, we believe that we were saved, that we are being saved, and that we will be saved. We believe in a point of salvation, yes, but it doesn't end then. We continue to 'work out' our salvation in fear and trembling. We were saved, but we continue to cooperate with God as we pursue Him each and every day, and by His grace (and His grace alone) become more and more like Him.
Regarding Matthew 7:21 (Not everyone who confesses our Lord Jesus will be saved.)

Very true. However, it isn't that verse alone that provides our viewpoint on that :)

I Corinthians 15


We always need to look at all aspects of the Scripture regarding salvation. There are two parts to this scripture. We are saved by that which we were taught, if we hold fast to that word. If we haven't held fast to that word, we have believed in vain. Note that this doesn't state any end to when we need to hold fast the word, lest we believe in vain. Then we see the second part: it is not I, but the grace of God which was with me (that made Paul who he was). God's grace enables us to participate in our salvation, to hold fast the word and teachings that were given to us. Without God's grace and without our faith in God, our works are nothing. Yet - we still need to work out that salvation throughout our life. It isn't a once and done deal (in regards to our acceptance of the grace God gives us).

Regarding James 2:14-17 (can faith save us without the accompanying life?)

I agree with you that if we have Christ within us, the works will accompany that. That's why we need to keep choosing to have Christ within us. If we reject Him, even though we accepted Him before, He will not force us to have Him within us. He gave us a beautiful gift of free will. This means, we are given the opportunity to accept Him, but we are also given the opportunity to either continue working out our salvation (continuing to accept Him) or to turn away and no longer keep Christ within us.
Once again, there are many scriptures that point out multiple aspects of our salvation. Several places in the Bible, people asked what they need to do to be saved. Let's take a look at a few of them (remember, an individual scripture by itself may sound like one thing, but when you combine it with other scripture, it may mean something slightly different).
Salvation requires belief (Acts 16:25-34):


I used to take this to mean belief is the requirement for salvation. Now I believe that belief is one aspect that is required for salvation. I'm going to go back to the verse I mentioned earlier about faith and works, and include some of the scripture around it (I apologize about all the verse being pasted in here, but I want to highlight a few portions).
James 2:



So this discusses a few things. Belief is not the only thing required for our salvation. Faith goes hand in hand with works. We can lose our faith (it can die).

For further discussion on the Orthodox view of salvation, justification and sanctification, you can look at this link: http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/ortho...justification-response-protestant-criticisms/

A few more scriptures to look at: Matthew 7:3, Matthew 7:23 and Luke 13:27

I know I am going through a lot of Scriptures, and I am not fully portraying all aspects of the Orthodox view on salvation (it would take much more than a single post!).

One more aspect of salvation (which is troublesome to many Evangelicals), is about baptism:

Among the Orthodox, baptism is more than just a symbolic act of burial and resurrection, but an actual supernatural transformation. Baptism is believed to impart cleansing (remission) of sins and union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (see Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2:12, 3:1-4). We can discuss that more in future posts if you are interested.

Also, since the Orthodox view of salvation has so many aspects, I'm sure I missed some. I'm mainly addressing this now from the perspective of where I came from before, so please take this as an overview regarding some of your questions, rather than a comprehensive view of salvation. Greg's overview was very good for that.



I'd be happy to answer anything (to the best of my ability :) ).
 
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civilwarbuff

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OK, sorry but been a hectic few days. Nearly forgot about this thread...old-timers disease. Just some simple questions to start, nothing deep like the 10 volume reading link about the ECF's that All4Christ sent me. Still working on Clement.
1. How do you celebrate Mass (assuming you call it that)? Similar to Catholics or does it go in a different direction?
2. What language is it conducted in? The peoples language (I would guess yes)? Has it always done so?
3. Holy Traditions...what exactly are they?....and can you give me some examples? Just never got a good explanation about it and I don't want to reject something I don't understand. I have read that they are both paramount and also secondary to scripture from both Catholic and EO so my confusion......
4. The different sects/denomination within EO...are they essentially the same and agree on the same doctrine and dogma? Or are there differences between them?...and if a few examples if you can?
That should do for now. Thanks for your time.
 
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All4Christ

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OK, sorry but been a hectic few days. Nearly forgot about this thread...old-timers disease. Just some simple questions to start, nothing deep like the 10 volume reading link about the ECF's that All4Christ sent me. Still working on Clement.
1. How do you celebrate Mass (assuming you call it that)? Similar to Catholics or does it go in a different direction?
2. What language is it conducted in? The peoples language (I would guess yes)? Has it always done so?
3. Holy Traditions...what exactly are they?....and can you give me some examples? Just never got a good explanation about it and I don't want to reject something I don't understand. I have read that they are both paramount and also secondary to scripture from both Catholic and EO so my confusion......
4. The different sects/denomination within EO...are they essentially the same and agree on the same doctrine and dogma? Or are there differences between them?...and if a few examples if you can?
That should do for now. Thanks for your time.

I'll start with the first question.

1. We actually call it Divine Liturgy, though the Western Rite Orthodox call it mass. I'm not overly familiar with the Catholic Mass, so I can't compare it well, but I can tell you what it is like.

We celebrate the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. This was formulated in the 4th or 5th century, though the present form was finalized in around the 9th century. The liturgy was actually based on liturgical services from much earlier. If you're ever interested in a book about the development of liturgy, I recommend the Springtime of the Liturgy (). Sorry if I overwhelm you with options of books / articles to read...I'm a total read-aholic ;)

The liturgy has two main parts. The first part (the Liturgy of the Word) is similar to the synagogue gathering of the Old Testament. The main purpose of this section is to proclaim and meditate on the Word of God. You'll find that the majority of our hymns are scripture, and lots of scripture is read each week. This is followed by a meditation on the scripture from our priest.

The second part is the Eucharist, or the Eucharistic sacrifice (also known as the Liturgy of the Faithful). The origin of this is based on the Old Testament temple worship, where the priest would make sacrifices for the people of God. In the New Testament Church, the central saving event is the one perfect, eternal and all-sufficient sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the one great High Priest who is also the Lamb of God slain for the salvation of the world, the New Passover (Pascha). At the Divine Liturgy, we participate in the voluntary self-offering of Christ to the Father, accomplished once and for all upon the Cross by the power of the Holy Spirit. In and through this unique sacrifice of Christ, the faithful Christians receive Holy Communion with God.

Interestingly, you can find a basic outline of the liturgy from St Justin Martyr in 150AD (about 55 years after the NT was completed). He doesn't have the text transcribed, but you can see the similarities here:

No one may share the Eucharist with us unless he believes that what we teach is true, unless he is washed in the regenerating waters of baptism for the remission of his sins, and unless he lives in accordance with the principles given us by Christ.

We do not consume the eucharistic bread and wine as if it were ordinary food and drink, for we have been taught that as Jesus Christ our Savior became a man of flesh and blood by the power of the Word of God, so also the food that our flesh and blood assimilates for its nourishment becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus by the power of his own words contained in the prayer of thanksgiving.

The apostles, in their recollections, which are called gospels, handed down to us what Jesus commanded them to do. They tell us that he took bread, gave thanks and said: Do this in memory of me. This is my body. In the same way he took the cup, he gave thanks and said: This is my blood. The Lord gave this command to them alone. Ever since then we have constantly reminded one another of these things. The rich among us help the poor and we are always united. For all that we receive we praise the Creator of the universe through his Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.

On Sunday we have a common assembly of all our members, whether they live in the city or the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president of the assembly speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray.

On the conclusion of our prayer, bread and wine and water are brought forward. The president offers prayers and gives thanks to the best of his ability, and the people give assent by saying, “Amen”. The eucharist is distributed, everyone present communicates, and the deacons take it to those who are absent.

The wealthy, if they wish, may make a contribution, and they themselves decide the amount. The collection is placed in the custody of the president, who uses it to help the orphans and widows and all who for any reason are in distress, whether because they are sick, in prison, or away from home. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.

We hold our common assembly on Sunday because it is the first day of the week, the day on which God put darkness and chaos to flight and created the world, and because on that same day our savior Jesus Christ rose from the dead. For he was crucified on Friday and on Sunday he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them the things that we have passed on for your consideration.
 
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All4Christ

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2. What language is it conducted in? The peoples language (I would guess yes)? Has it always done so?

My jurisdiction (Orthodox Church in America) celebrates the liturgy in English. The Antiochian church also typically celebrates the liturgy in English.

Ideally (in my opinion), it should always be in the language of the people. That said, some churches (like the Greek Orthodox Church) often have both English and Greek, or in the case of the Serbian Church or the Russian Church, a combination of English and Slavonic. I believe the continued use of non-English languages is due to the founding of parishes by immigrants from their respective countries (my opinion / thoughts). There isn't a specific language that is considered to be 'holier'. Our Catholic friends here can correct me, as I am not sure about this, but I think that Latin used to be considered to be holier and more appropriate for religious services. Orthodox Christians do not view a specific language as having a higher status than others. That said, sometimes translation from Greek to English is difficult to capture the full meaning.

Has it always been celebrated in the language of the people? Well - it is supposed to be celebrated in the language of the people, but there are other cases similar to the second scenario I listed above. Orthodoxy was primarily found in certain countries, and the diaspora of Orthodoxy has been spread by the jurisdictions in the 'Orthodox' countries. Like I said earlier, the continued use of the language is sometimes the outcome of immigrants coming from those Orthodox countries.

Most of the time, you can find an Orthodox Church that has their service in English. You are from America, correct? If you are ever interested in checking out a parish, look here: www.orthodoxyinamerica.org

I'll answer the rest, but am limited on time this afternoon...I will get back to you soon!
 
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ArmyMatt

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1. How do you celebrate Mass (assuming you call it that)? Similar to Catholics or does it go in a different direction?

we follow how St Justin Martyr outlines worship for Christians in the 100's, and you can see the connection with the Jewish Temple/Tabernacle worship, the synagogues, and the worship seen in all visions of heaven. the Liturgy that we tend to follow most is the one of St John Chrysostom. you should check it out. if the Temple was a form and shadow of heavenly things according to St Paul, then it would make sense that the Jews, the Christians, and the angels would all worship in a similar way, as one continuous stream, just with ever more illumination til Pentecost. you should check us out.

also, our services are 99% verbatim from Scripture, and HOW we do it is also taken from Scripture.

2. What language is it conducted in? The peoples language (I would guess yes)? Has it always done so?

yep, so here in America it should be in English, although there are some places where the off the boat immigrant population is still high, so there are some that still do it in the old language (this includes Spanish heavy places like the Mexican border, so those folks can be ministered to).

3. Holy Traditions...what exactly are they?....and can you give me some examples? Just never got a good explanation about it and I don't want to reject something I don't understand. I have read that they are both paramount and also secondary to scripture from both Catholic and EO so my confusion......

Holy Tradition is everything that has been revealed by God to the Church, or the life of the Holy Spirit in the Body of Christ. so first and foremost is the Bible, but there is also the councils, canons, icons, hymns, prayers, lives of saints, patristics, Church architecture, etc that all point us to God.

4. The different sects/denomination within EO...are they essentially the same and agree on the same doctrine and dogma? Or are there differences between them?...and if a few examples if you can?

there are no sects or denominations in Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy. we are all the same faith, with the same experience in Christ. there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism. a Greek parish might have unique Greek customs and practice, but the Faith is always one in the same.

good questions, keep them coming!
 
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civilwarbuff

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Sorry, have not abandoned questions....just been a rough month. More questions if you don't mind....?
Are your Priests allowed to be married at ordination or get married afterwards? Some of the things I have read lead me to confusion on this matter.
RC has nuns....do you have an "equivalent"?
I have viewed a few OO services online...are your services much different than theirs?
I an interested in attending an EO service in the Columbus, OH area. Any recommendations?
How do you address your priests....Father, Sir, Your ......?
Also, my Bible is on my tablet.....definitely need wifi.....LOL
 
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ArmyMatt

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Are your Priests allowed to be married at ordination or get married afterwards? Some of the things I have read lead me to confusion on this matter.

married prior to ordination or remain celibate.

RC has nuns....do you have an "equivalent"?

yep, nuns

I have viewed a few OO services online...are your services much different than theirs?

we use a different Liturgy as far as I know, but they are pretty close

I an interested in attending an EO service in the Columbus, OH area. Any recommendations?

http://assemblyofbishops.org/directories/parishes

I would say search on here, and find whatever tickles your fancy. Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, no matter the jurisdiction.

How do you address your priests....Father, Sir, Your ......?

priests are Father

Also, my Bible is on my tablet.....definitely need wifi.....LOL

haha, I would suggest NOT going through with a Bible at least at first. so much goes on and it's good to soak in the Liturgy. believe me, you will here and see the Bible all over.

keep us posted on how it goes!
 
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All4Christ wrote:
Regarding what you wrote - It was very difficult for me to consider the authority issue, and that was one of the last things that I had to deal with before I became Orthodox. I know it is a polar opposite viewpoint to what most Evangelicals believe. If you want, I'd be happy to share some of the reasons I reconsidered my thoughts on the matter. No pressure though.
Would love to hear it.
 
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civilwarbuff

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On another EO thread I read something along the lines of watching out for dairy in product because it is not/may not be kosher. Do EO's follow kosher law? If so, how does that reconcile with Peter and his vision of unclean animals.....
Act 10:9 Around noon the next day, while they were on their way and coming close to the town, Peter went up on the roof to pray.
Act 10:10 He became very hungry and wanted to eat, and while the food was being prepared, he fell into a trance
Act 10:11 and saw heaven open and something like a large linen sheet coming down, being lowered by its four corners to the ground.
Act 10:12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals, reptiles, and birds of the air.
Act 10:13 Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter! Kill something and eat it."
Act 10:14 But Peter said, "Absolutely not, Lord, for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean!"
Act 10:15 Again the voice came to him a second time, "You must stop calling unclean what God has made clean."
Act 10:16 This happened three times. Then the sheet was quickly taken back into heaven.
 
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All4Christ

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All4Christ wrote:
Regarding what you wrote - It was very difficult for me to consider the authority issue, and that was one of the last things that I had to deal with before I became Orthodox. I know it is a polar opposite viewpoint to what most Evangelicals believe. If you want, I'd be happy to share some of the reasons I reconsidered my thoughts on the matter. No pressure though.
Would love to hear it.
Will do ASAP! Tonight I need to head upstairs soon (early day tomorrow) but I will explain soon, hopefully tomorrow or Monday :)
 
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All4Christ

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On another EO thread I read something along the lines of watching out for dairy in product because it is not/may not be kosher. Do EO's follow kosher law? If so, how does that reconcile with Peter and his vision of unclean animals.....
Act 10:9 Around noon the next day, while they were on their way and coming close to the town, Peter went up on the roof to pray.
Act 10:10 He became very hungry and wanted to eat, and while the food was being prepared, he fell into a trance
Act 10:11 and saw heaven open and something like a large linen sheet coming down, being lowered by its four corners to the ground.
Act 10:12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals, reptiles, and birds of the air.
Act 10:13 Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter! Kill something and eat it."
Act 10:14 But Peter said, "Absolutely not, Lord, for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean!"
Act 10:15 Again the voice came to him a second time, "You must stop calling unclean what God has made clean."
Act 10:16 This happened three times. Then the sheet was quickly taken back into heaven.
No we don't follow Kosher laws. We don't believe that there are unclean foods. That said, as a form of spiritual discipline, we participate in a form of fasting, abstaining from foods that are traditionally satisfying and filling foods (meat and dairy). This is not because the foods are unclean. Rather, it is a way to help us depend on God for our sustenance through prayer and spiritual preparation. We also try to eat more simple foods during this time, so that we don't spend as much time focusing on meal preparation, etc. Some days, such as Holy Saturday (before Pascha - what we call Easter), we traditionally abstain from cooking full meals and just have raw nuts, fruit, dry bread, etc.

Now this is not supposed to be a legalistic thing. Each of us, with the guidance of our priest, follows the fast to the best of our ability. That said, if someone starts focusing more on the fast over their spiritual preparation, the fast is worth nothing; rather, he or she should focus on spiritual preparation first and foremost, as fasting is a method to assist in our spiritual development; it is not a law or regulation.
 
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