Should wealthy nations end world hunger?

Open Heart

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In that case, the US currently grows enough grain to feed its own population, all of world's 795 million malnourished and could still feed another 205 million on top of that.
Like I've said a couple of times. The problem is not in donating the food. We already do PLENTY of that. The problem is with the corruption of the governments of these third world countries and the food going onto the black market instead of into the mouths of the hungry.
 
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nebulaJP

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Like I've said a couple of times. The problem is not in donating the food. We already do PLENTY of that. The problem is with the corruption of the governments of these third world countries and the food going onto the black market instead of into the mouths of the hungry.

OK, then are all relief efforts such as "Save the Children" useless? Should people stop donating to these charities?
 
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bill5

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Dave-W

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OK, then are all relief efforts such as "Save the Children" useless? Should people stop donating to these charities?
Of course not.

But just try to find a viable charity to feed the staving in North Korea or Somalia ........
 
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Open Heart

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OK, then are all relief efforts such as "Save the Children" useless? Should people stop donating to these charities?
No. We should give even though it is highly inefficient. I'm just saying the problem is never going to be solved this way. The focus should not be on giving more but on ENDING THE CORRUPTION. Surely there must be some brilliant problem solvers out there who can come up with some solutions that people who care can throw their political weight behind.
 
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Albion

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"Doing something about" world hunger is a worthy discussion topic, but we should know that we cannot end world hunger. We can make other countries more able to feed their own people, but we cannot "end world hunger" by bringing them lunch. On Tuesday, the people of the world will need to eat again.
 
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bill5

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You don't know that. Obesity doesn't mean a person isn't starving. In third world countries, people DIE of starvation while obese, when their bodies literally eat their vital organs before burning off their fat.
No, sorry, not true. I don't know what video you saw, but it's pure nonsense.


Let's START by getting rid of the governmental corruption that interferes with the aid getting to the hungry. That's step one. Step two is to create productive economies free of that corruption so that people become self supporting.
Unfortunately, we can't "uncorrupt" a country's government any more than we can grow a third leg. These are fantasy ideas you're giving us. Very nice ones, mind you, but completely unworkable.


To eradicate it would cost something like 50% of one month's defence spending in the U.S.
Hardly.


In that case, the US currently grows enough grain to feed its own population, all of world's 795 million malnourished and could still feed another 205 million on top of that.
Theoretically (based on the link you gave above)...

OK, then are all relief efforts such as "Save the Children" useless? Should people stop donating to these charities?
Yes.

If you're going to ask silly questions, expect silly replies.

The point OH has made, several times, is that throwing money or throwing resources/food at the problem doesn't come close to resolving it.
 
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nebulaJP

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Of course not.

But just try to find a viable charity to feed the staving in North Korea or Somalia ........

Have you ever seen the movie Machine Gun Preacher? It's a true story. This is a good model for what should happen on a large scale. Just replace Sam Childers with UN peacekeeping forces.

Some places, like N. Korea, would have to wait. But others, where you are just dealing with some warlord or poor, corrupt government would be a lot easier.
 
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98cwitr

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In the United States, farmers grow enough grain to feed the world’s population many times over. If there were no increase in your taxes, would you support the government using tax dollars to buy grain and the distribution channels necessary to keep the earth’s population fed at all times? This could be done easily by making cuts in other areas.

I think it would be better to help cultivate a society to be able to be autonomous, with the ability to grow crops and educate on ways to develop clean water. The whole "teach a man to fish" analogy.
 
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Open Heart

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Unfortunately, we can't "uncorrupt" a country's government any more than we can grow a third leg. These are fantasy ideas you're giving us. Very nice ones, mind you, but completely unworkable.
I suspect there is more that we can do. We haven't thought it through. They are way over there and we wipe our hands of it rather than put our minds to it. For example, what about the foreign aid given directly to their governments? BAD IDEA. And I'm not nearly smart enough to be figuring this out.
 
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nebulaJP

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I'm not talking about eradicating poverty.

I'm saying that even if those people were perpetually destitute, we could at least feed and water them.

Having free food would give people the nutrients needed to learn, work and escape the Poverty Trap. There are also often issues of climate, weather, war, displacement and unstable markets to contend with, all of which make international food-aid the only alternative to starvation for millions.
 
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nebulaJP

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I think it would be better to help cultivate a society to be able to be autonomous, with the ability to grow crops and educate on ways to develop clean water. The whole "teach a man to fish" analogy.

What about cases where people are starving but autonomy isn't possible (due to prolonged drought for example)?
 
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LOVEthroughINTELLECT

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In the United States, farmers grow enough grain to feed the world’s population many times over. If there were no increase in your taxes, would you support the government using tax dollars to buy grain and the distribution channels necessary to keep the earth’s population fed at all times? This could be done easily by making cuts in other areas.




Why is it that when we consider such questions we ask everybody but the people whose lives we think are at stake?

Here is a source that powerfully gives their perspective: Grassroots Post-Modernism: Remaking the Soil of Cultures, by Gustavo Esteva and Madhu Suri Prakash. I believe that there is now a 2014 edition. I read the 1998 edition.

The thesis of Grassroots Post-Modernism is basically this: a post-modern epic is unfolding at the grassroots among the world's oppressed majority (the people we in the West call the "Third World") and that this was evidenced by the First Intercontinental Encounter for Humanity and Against Neoliberalism.

Many in the world's oppressed majority, if the authors are correct, have during 500 years of being dominated by outsiders and having their history interrupted resisted the encroachment of expanding Western creations such as free markets and managed to maintain their lands and indigenous cultures. While we in the West talk about how fortunate we are to have our way of life, the world's majority has only suffered from modernity. The people in the oppressed majority have, as the authors put it, waited for 500 years to resume their own history--their own way of life.

The ethnocentrism in the West is breathtaking. We assume as seamlessly as we take breaths and blink eyes that our own cultural patterns are operating on every square inch of the Earth and that everybody longs to have our way of life, our standard of living, etc. The way that we are so oblivious to human cultural variation is, again, breathtaking.

It is like it has never occurred to people that even if we could eliminate the "corrupt governments" that people have repeatedly talked about in this thread--or even if we could eliminate every obstacle imagined in this thread--it does not necessarily mean that our cultural patterns will be embraced in what we call the Third World or that the exportation of such cultural patterns will produce the outcomes that we envision. Just because people who want to export a square peg are intelligent, wealthy, powerful and have put men on the moon does not mean that a round hole will be receptive to a square peg and that a square peg will fit into that round hole.

Apparently we are not only so arrogant and ethnocentric that we think we can invade places like Iraq and transform them to our vision, we also think we can throw all of our disproportionate amount of resources into whatever pond we focus on, including global hunger, and the ripples will transform everything in their path. We think that the only thing stopping us from causing such wholesale transformation is that we have our priorities backwards, we lack compassion, we lack the will, etc.

And I have only touched on cultural variation. There is also geography. Like it was pointed out in one post, we are able to have the agricultural output that we have in the U.S. because of aquifers that, by every account I have heard, are going to dry up before long.

I think that if we really want to do what is right and what is good we will take a look in the mirror and resolve to end this ethnocentrism, narcissism and arrogance that makes us think that our way of life is destined to solve every problem everywhere on the globe, that makes us fail to see that the majority of people have overwhelmingly mostly suffered from our way of life, that makes us fail to see that civilizations collapse ecologically and that our civilization is not immune, and that makes us tone-deaf to the possibility (see Grassroots Post-Modernism) that other people are already moving beyond our hegemony and are poised to transform the world in a way that would make our vision seem like faint background noise.
 
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nebulaJP

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But problem is that epicenters for starvation tend to be very dangerous, very corrupt places.

There are HUGE relief undertaking worldwide on a daily basis, problem is that these relief items end up stolen and/or sold in surplus stores.

Helping the starving, you have to deal with these low-life criminals first..... You can't arrest these thugs ofc, unless we have a one-world gov't....

Would beefing up security in the epicenters of starvation twenty-fold with mercenaries or allied troops everywhere around the supplies at all times work?
 
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nebulaJP

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Why is it that when we consider such questions we ask everybody but the people whose lives we think are at stake?

Here is a source that powerfully gives their perspective: Grassroots Post-Modernism: Remaking the Soil of Cultures, by Gustavo Esteva and Madhu Suri Prakash. I believe that there is now a 2014 edition. I read the 1998 edition.

The thesis of Grassroots Post-Modernism is basically this: a post-modern epic is unfolding at the grassroots among the world's oppressed majority (the people we in the West call the "Third World") and that this was evidenced by the First Intercontinental Encounter for Humanity and Against Neoliberalism.

Many in the world's oppressed majority, if the authors are correct, have during 500 years of being dominated by outsiders and having their history interrupted resisted the encroachment of expanding Western creations such as free markets and managed to maintain their lands and indigenous cultures. While we in the West talk about how fortunate we are to have our way of life, the world's majority has only suffered from modernity. The people in the oppressed majority have, as the authors put it, waited for 500 years to resume their own history--their own way of life.

The ethnocentrism in the West is breathtaking. We assume as seamlessly as we take breaths and blink eyes that our own cultural patterns are operating on every square inch of the Earth and that everybody longs to have our way of life, our standard of living, etc. The way that we are so oblivious to human cultural variation is, again, breathtaking.

It is like it has never occurred to people that even if we could eliminate the "corrupt governments" that people have repeatedly talked about in this thread--or even if we could eliminate every obstacle imagined in this thread--it does not necessarily mean that our cultural patterns will be embraced in what we call the Third World or that the exportation of such cultural patterns will produce the outcomes that we envision. Just because people who want to export a square peg are intelligent, wealthy, powerful and have put men on the moon does not mean that a round hole will be receptive to a square peg and that a square peg will fit into that round hole.

Apparently we are not only so arrogant and ethnocentric that we think we can invade places like Iraq and transform them to our vision, we also think we can throw all of our disproportionate amount of resources into whatever pond we focus on, including global hunger, and the ripples will transform everything in their path. We think that the only thing stopping us from causing such wholesale transformation is that we have our priorities backwards, we lack compassion, we lack the will, etc.

And I have only touched on cultural variation. There is also geography. Like it was pointed out in one post, we are able to have the agricultural output that we have in the U.S. because of aquifers that, by every account I have heard, are going to dry up before long.

I think that if we really want to do what is right and what is good we will take a look in the mirror and resolve to end this ethnocentrism, narcissism and arrogance that makes us think that our way of life is destined to solve every problem everywhere on the globe, that makes us fail to see that the majority of people have overwhelmingly mostly suffered from our way of life, that makes us fail to see that civilizations collapse ecologically and that our civilization is not immune, and that makes us tone-deaf to the possibility (see Grassroots Post-Modernism) that other people are already moving beyond our hegemony and are poised to transform the world in a way that would make our vision seem like faint background noise.

Yes, assisting with food and/or agricultural infrastructure is SO arrogant, OK. What about the commandments in the Bible to feed the hungry?

Edit:

This is not assisting some remote tribe of hunter-gatherers, who have not been in contact with modern society and don't want our help. The people who need aid have nothing to lose from us helping them.
 
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bill5

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I suspect there is more that we can do. We haven't thought it through. They are way over there and we wipe our hands of it rather than put our minds to it. For example, what about the foreign aid given directly to their governments? BAD IDEA.
As opposed to........what? You can't simply ignore a country's government. Unfortunately.


Having free food would give people the nutrients needed to learn, work and escape the Poverty Trap. There are also often issues of climate, weather, war, displacement and unstable markets to contend with, all of which make international food-aid the only alternative to starvation for millions.
Nope. Having free food over the long haul would just make them dependent on that and promotes a welfare mentality. As someone else said, teach a man to fish, don't simply hand a fish to him. The "poverty trap" is far more than simply being hungry. And again it all starts with THEIR OWN COUNTRY'S GOVERNMENT. I don't know why people refuse to grasp this. Ultimately we cannot fix this problem. Period. We can help, but it's up to them.
 
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timewerx

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Would beefing up security in the epicenters of starvation twenty-fold with mercenaries or allied troops everywhere around the supplies at all times work?


Human soldiers bully, rape, torture, etc, etc, the answer is NO.

Semi-autonomous attack/scout robots, YES! Robotics, automation, AI is the badly needed help that has finally arrived.
 
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