Salvation Through Sanctification

Steeno7 said:

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned we wouldn't all be dead and in need of life.

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Yes, that is what I said using different words.


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Steeno7 said:

You sound like Jason now.

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I will take that as a compliment. Thank you.


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Steeno7 said:

WORKS. Anything you add to Christ takes away from Christ.

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Please re-read what I had written. I said it was Christ working in you. I did not say it was me or the believer doing the work. Also, please address the verses I brought up in Post #149, too.


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Steeno7 said:

You sound like Jason now.

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What's with the insult?

John Robie said:

But you all are saying Christ died for EVERYONE'S evil deeds. So if God's wrath remains on them, then obviously it wasn't propitiated. So then it's clear that "world" in 1 John 2:2 doesn't mean every single person who has ever lived.

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Jesus did pay the price for everyone's sins. But the only way that to go into effect personally for each individual is if they accept His free love gift by repenting of their sins, accepting Christ, and then continuing to obey His words.

For God so loved the world (John 3:16).

Besides, 1 John 2:2 .... IS .... referring to the whole world because John makes a distinction between them and the world. For he says he is the propitiation not only for OUR sins, but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

In other words, lets say Rick got himself into financial debt and his father wrote him a check to cancel out his debts. The debt has been paid. Rick now has the money. But Rick would need to pay off his debts personally by paying them off with the money he received from his father by writing a check to each creditor he was in debted to. But if Rick took the money and spent it on himself instead of paying his debts off, then he would not be using that money as it was intended by his Dad. In other words, Christ hands everyone a check that says their sin debt is paid if they repent of their sins and accept Him, and then follow Him (According to His Word).


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Jason0047 said:

Jesus did pay the price for everyone's sins. But the only way that to go into effect personally for each individual is if they accept His free love gift by repenting of their sins, accepting Christ, and then continuing to obey His words.

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We have to obey the LORD. For it's a part of our repentance and belief in the LORD.

How so?

Matthew 21:28-32 — The Parable of the Two Sons

"...A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work today in my vineyard.

He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and WENT.

And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

Which of the two did the will of his father? They said unto him, The first. Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and you believed him not: but the tax collectors and the harlots believed him: and you, when you had seen it, repented not afterward, that you might believe him."

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John Robie said:

What's with the insult?

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LOL. You know you just insulted Jason, right?

Jason0047 said:

Please re-read what I had written. I said it was Christ working in you. I did not say it was me or the believer doing the work. Also, please address the verses I brought up in Post #149, too.


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If it's Christ working, why is the works you say you and others must do all you talk about? Ya can't have it both ways. You can try, but you only come off being a living contradiction.

EmSw said:

Salvation is being saved from our sins.

Sanctification is the process by which we cleanse and purify ourselves from our sins with help from the Lord.

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OK, thank you for responding.

But "Salvation is being saved" is kind of circular, is it not? How exactly do you understand "being saved from our sins"? What do you see as the end result of our being saved from our sins? Thanks in advance.

GregoryTheNonTheologian said:

OK, thank you for responding.

But "Salvation is being saved" is kind of circular, is it not? How exactly do you understand "being saved from our sins"? What do you see as the end result of our being saved from our sins? Thanks in advance.

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Being saved from your sins in Sanctification is not being a slave to sin anymore. For...

"...the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:8-9).

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning." (1 John 3:8).

"...let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7).

For...

"....they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

"For sin shall not have dominion over you:" (Romans 6:14).

And...

"...everyone who sins is a slave to sin." (John 8:34 NIV).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:20-21).


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Steeno7 said:

If it's Christ working, why is the works you say you and others must do all you talk about? Ya can't have it both ways. You can try, but you only come off being a living contradiction.

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The Bible speaks in the same way. From one perspective it says we must do certain things. For example: Jesus says if we do not forgive, then we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). We also cannot be ashamed of him or his words, or He will be ashamed of us, too (Luke 9:26). This means, we cannot be ashamed in speaking the truth of Jesus and His words to others. If we are, then He will be ashamed of us. From another perspective the Bible says it is Christ (God) that works in the believer. John 15:5 says, "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

And here is another one.

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it." (John 14:9-14).

And here is another,

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

But to help you to understand how the two as being harmonious or how the two can work together, think of one as the Command (God's instructions on what He wants us to do) and the other as God working in you to help you to keep His Commands.


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As for certain OSAS Proponent's false claim against Conditional Salvationists supporting Man Directed Works Salvationism:

Well, OSAS Proponents believe Romans 4 is talking about all works in general or all types or forms of works. However, it is actually in reference to the works of the Law of Moses (Which is evident by the mention of circumcision in the previous chapter). Anyways, lets read the first 5 verses in Romans 4 in context to the Law of Moses:


Also, we know that Abraham was justified by the fact that he also performed , too. For Romans 4:21-22 says, "And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." Certain OSAS Proponents also believe James 2 is in reference to external works that justify one before man and not God. But in reality James 2 is talking about God directed works that are a requirement for one's faith to be true. For faith without works is dead. Other OSAS Proponents completey disregard what James says because they believe that his writings were written to Hebrews and not Gentile Christians. But Scripture says there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.

OSAS Proponents also believe Galatians 3 is in reference to all law, as well. But Galatians 3 uses the words, "works of the Law" to let us know it is referring to the Law of Moses. For Galatians 3:24 says, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." So again, this is not in reference to all law but to the Law of Moses.

Also, OSAS Proponents believe that no works are not necessary of any kind as a part of one's salvation by pointing to Ephesians 2:8-10, too. But what they fail to understand is that Ephesians 2:8-9 is in reference to self directed works by man and it is not in reference to God directed works mentioned in Ephesians 2:10. For we were created in Christ Jesus for God directed "good works" to flow within our life. This is why Paul says we are to examine we are in the faith or not and prove that Jesus Christ is in us unless we are reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5).


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Jason0047 said:

Jesus did pay the price for everyone's sins. But the only way that to go into effect personally for each individual is if they accept His free love gift by repenting of their sins, accepting Christ, and then continuing to obey His words.

For God so loved the world (John 3:16).

Besides, 1 John 2:2 .... IS .... referring to the whole world because John makes a distinction between them and the world. For he says he is the propitiation not only for OUR sins, but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

In other words, lets say Rick got himself into financial debt and his father wrote him a check to cancel out his debts. The debt has been paid. Rick now has the money. But Rick would need to pay off his debts personally by paying them off with the money he received from his father by writing a check to each creditor he was in debted to. But if Rick took the money and spent it on himself instead of paying his debts off, then he would not be using that money as it was intended by his Dad. In other words, Christ hands everyone a check that says their sin debt is paid if they repent of their sins and accept Him, and then follow Him (According to His Word).


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Propitiation means God's wrath was satisfied. That's a very real thing. It cannot be satisfied and not satisfied at the same time. It cannot remain on someone and be satisfied at the same time. So you will either have to understand that "world" is used at least 8 ways in John's writings with "people from every tongue, tribe and nation" being one of them, or you will have to explain how His satisfied wrath remains (a logical impossibility) remains on those who don't believe.

Steeno7 said:

LOL. You know you just insulted Jason, right?

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For deflecting. This is what happens when one realizes that they have no counter-argument.

EmSw said:

Matthew 1:21
she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.

'save His people from their sins' = salvation

How do I understand 'being saved from our sins'? Sin is the enemy of all mankind. It is sin which brings forth death and sends man to hell. From Genesis to Revelation, sin is the nemesis of man, which separates him from God. Man needed a way to be saved from deadly consequences of sin of his deceitful heart. Man needed a way to be sanctified or purified, to be cleansed of his sin.

How is this accomplished? Jesus said this in John 17:17 - Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. It is God's eternal and life-giving truth which cleanses a man. Since Jesus is the Word and Truth Itself, it is Jesus which sanctifies and thus saves man from their sins.

Of course the end result is life, which is effected by removing the source of death, that is, sin.

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So does He actually accomplish what He came to do, or does He just try really hard?

John Robie said:

Propitiation means God's wrath was satisfied. That's a very real thing. It cannot be satisfied and not satisfied at the same time. It cannot remain on someone and be satisfied at the same time. So you will either have to understand that "world" is used at least 8 ways in John's writings with "people from every tongue, tribe and nation" being one of them, or you will have to explain how His satisfied wrath remains (a logical impossibility) remains on those who don't believe.

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The wrath that abides on a person is the sin that they commit in real time without refusing to repent. God paying the price for all their sin so as to put it in a gift wrapped box (metaphorically speaking) so as to offer them life and the forgiveness of sins is provisional and based on how man would react to such a gift. It's like a blank check presented before a person so as to cancel out their debt personally (If that is what they desire).

We also have to remember, that with God, nothing is impossible, too. So understanding of the mechanics of how such a thing works completely is not what God requires of us. God requires us to simply have faith in what is written (Even if we cannot explain it). For can you explain how Jesus turned water into another substance? No. It simply was a miracle.

As for 1 John 2:2: Well, the passage cannot be making a comparison between believers and other believers. The OUR and the WHOLE WORLD is a pretty cut and dry contrast here. It says WHOLE world, it does not say other future upcoming believers (That they have to bring into the fold).


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EmSw said:

Matthew 1:21
she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.

'save His people from their sins' = salvation

How do I understand 'being saved from our sins'? Sin is the enemy of all mankind. It is sin which brings forth death and sends man to hell. From Genesis to Revelation, sin is the nemesis of man, which separates him from God. Man needed a way to be saved from deadly consequences of sin of his deceitful heart. Man needed a way to be sanctified or purified, to be cleansed of his sin.

How is this accomplished? Jesus said this in John 17:17 - Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. It is God's eternal and life-giving truth which cleanses a man. Since Jesus is the Word and Truth Itself, it is Jesus which sanctifies and thus saves man from their sins.

Of course the end result is life, which is effected by removing the source of death, that is, sin.

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Thank you.

I must apologize because I didn't read your original post carefully enough. You bring out two great verses. We might also include:


Also, the following verses use the same Greek word translated as "sanctification" above - ἁγιασμός (hagiasmos) - but (in the KJV) translate it as "holiness" rather than "sanctification":


I think the only way to reconcile the opposing views that you expressed in your original post is to consider that "sanctification" and "divinization" (or "deification", theosis in Greek) are different things, though the terms might be used interchangeably in theological discussions. In this, I would agree with you that salvation is through sanctification in the sense that one must become holy in order to be saved (viz. Hebrews 12:14). I would not say, however, that being made holy equates to theosis, as alluded to by Peter when he writes of our becoming partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4-5); or by the Lord when he speaks of our becoming sons of the Father in heaven (Matthew 5:44-45) or of our sitting with him in His throne (Revelation 3:21).

Theosis in this understanding is actually the end (or "goal") of salvation and not merely a part. I have seen a few times someone writing that Orthodox Christians confuse "salvation" with "sanctification". I think that the above may explain somewhat why this appears to be so.

John Robie said:

For deflecting. This is what happens when one realizes that they have no counter-argument.

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Counter argument to what?