If we treated snakebite like we treat PTSD.....

LovebirdsFlying said:

This is an analogy I put together.

Scene: I am out camping with friends. As I sit down by the lakeside, it so happens there is a rattlesnake under me. I call for help. The snake is removed and safely disposed of, but it has bitten me many times. The following conversation happens.

-- "Well, the snake's gone now. You have nothing to worry about."
-- "Don't you think I should see a doctor?"
-- "What for? There's no snake anymore."
-- "Yeah, but it bit me."
-- "Oh, that's all in the past. It's over. Learn to live in the present."
-- "A venomous snake bit me! I need to see a doctor!"
-- "No, you don't. You need to quit holding on to the past. That snake is gone. You're not sitting on it anymore. Now, just go on with your life and quit playing the victim."

As the snakebites remain untreated, I become more and more ill. That leads to this:

-- "You've really got to get over it. We can't change the past. That venom isn't inside anybody but you, and that means you, and you alone, are responsible for it."
-- "Ew. She's got venom inside her?"

***Everyone backs away.***

-- "That's because a snake bit me."
-- "There you go again, blaming past circumstances. What are we supposed to do, go back in time and stop the snake from biting you? That can't be done. What happened, happened, so you just have to let it go."
-- "That's true. Look around. There are so many beautiful things here. See how pretty the sunlight is on that lake? And all you can think about is the one negative thing that happened. You need a more positive attitude."

Does this sound familiar to anyone here with PTSD?

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All of that. Plus suggesting the person bitten is insane to carry on worrying about a historic snake bite.

"And perhaps it is YOUR fault you got bit..."

I used to think along the lines you describe there. Thinking that mental and emotional wounding was not real. But God stopped me short one day.

I often have mental pictures going on in my mind as I pray. This one day I was praying about someone with an emotional wound (which I did not believe) and I pictured myself with a 2x4 hitting the water in a small pond (representing the person's mentality) I kept hitting the water over and over and said "See God - there is no wound no matter how hard or how often I hit it."

So God hijacked my mental image. Suddenly I heard the "beep beep beep" of a truck backing up. I then saw this huge dump truck back to the water's edge and dump a load of road salt and other chemicals into the water. Fish started dying and floating to the surface. What was formerly a thriving pond was now a stagnant dead mess.
I got the point.

With that kind of wounding, the poison needs to be extracted from the water or body or whatever. That is never an easy process.

DaveW-Ohev said:

"And perhaps it is YOUR fault you got bit..."

I used to think along the lines you describe there. Thinking that mental and emotional wounding was not real. But God stopped me short one day.

I often have mental pictures going on in my mind as I pray. This one day I was praying about someone with an emotional wound (which I did not believe) and I pictured myself with a 2x4 hitting the water in a small pond (representing the person's mentality) I kept hitting the water over and over and said "See God - there is no wound no matter how hard or how often I hit it."

So God hijacked my mental image. Suddenly I heard the "beep beep beep" of a truck backing up. I then saw this huge dump truck back to the water's edge and dump a load of road salt and other chemicals into the water. Fish started dying and floating to the surface. What was formerly a thriving pond was now a stagnant dead mess.
I got the point.

With that kind of wounding, the poison needs to be extracted from the water or body or whatever. That is never an easy process.

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Fine. Well. Yes and no.

I have dissociative identity disorder, caused by inappropriate behaviour a long time ago. As far as I am aware this involved emotional and physical neglect of myself and my siblings. There is more but it is not for speaking of in public. The end result is that my personality is fragmented.

Add to that being married to an alcoholic (now deceased), and far greater complications are added to the picture.

However, I do not really think it is appropriate to regard years of chronic abuse as the equivalent of a polluted pond. What has happened to me, and to others like me, is not a pollution. We are not contaminated, we are not poisoned, we are not deadly, nor do we live in a way that is harmful to ourselves or others.

Would you describe someone with cancer or heart disease as being a stagnant dead mess? I certainly hope not. In which case, kindly do not use such language of those of us who struggle with issues of identity and survival. If you want to find a metaphor I would respectfully suggest that you ask us what we think of who we are in relation to the world, and then listen to what we say.

My mind is not a stagnant pond. I am creative, resourceful, compassionate, loving and intelligent, and I am a very good mother indeed, even if I say it myself. I am also very caring towards my parents, in spite of everything they may or may not have done. My daughter is a PhD student, and is on course for a very successful career. On the less positive side I am very vulnerable, but I tend not to let people know how; it keeps me safer.

So a little less of the poisonous pond imagery, and perhaps a little more of the stronger than you will ever know, more resilient than you will ever understand, and how dare you suggest that something you do not understand is not real.

LovebirdsFlying said:

Both of you are correct.

I'd like to add, when there is a problem that needs to be solved, what difference does it make whose fault it is? Just solve the problem.

I like the mental images thing.

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Except that people with DID are not a problem to be solved. (Nobody is.)

LovebirdsFlying said:

No, the people aren't a problem. Their symptoms can be problematic. Bad wording on my part. I'm just saying, there is little good to come from assigning blame.

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Hi Dears,

And I do mean that. Two things. I know of PTSD, and have it from multiple sources. I know less of DID, but would like to know more, but from a personal point of view. The only person that I knew of who had it, could not stay in my life, because even though she was old like me, the little girl in her was a liar and lied, but she was real cute fun loving and I had great hopes for her, as I don't think anyone loved her, but I did and deeply.

Warriors have helped me with PTSD. Basically and this is hard all of us with PTSD are actually warriors of a special kind. We never wanted to be warriors but the situations we were put into, caused us to be in a war, so to speak.

Eventually when I became older, it was easier for me to handle PTSD. My last flash back happened this morning. My hands were shaking. My insides were shaking. I was a mess. But, using the old warriors trick of finding someone like me and then sharing details, worked yet again. In short order, I was more of a nice and quasi normal person. As normal as a PTSD person can ever get, around people who have never been damaged.

LOVE,

Hi,

After I read about the dump truck, just now, this came to mind. God is in my life, and that is how really, I handle the PTSD. Sure, the people God put into my life are the correct people for me, but it is really all God doing this and that.

For all of you here, I see that in your extremely real stories, and I can so far relate to all of you, even maybe you with DID, as my childhood was consistent with yours, in many ways.

LOVE, (From an approved private revelation by a Spiritual Director, my best recollection of the way God actually loves)

Catherineanne said:

Fine. Well. Yes and no.

I have dissociative identity disorder, caused by inappropriate behaviour a long time ago. As far as I am aware this involved emotional and physical neglect of myself and my siblings. There is more but it is not for speaking of in public. The end result is that my personality is fragmented.

Add to that being married to an alcoholic (now deceased), and far greater complications are added to the picture.

However, I do not really think it is appropriate to regard years of chronic abuse as the equivalent of a polluted pond. What has happened to me, and to others like me, is not a pollution. We are not contaminated, we are not poisoned, we are not deadly, nor do we live in a way that is harmful to ourselves or others.

Would you describe someone with cancer or heart disease as being a stagnant dead mess? I certainly hope not. In which case, kindly do not use such language of those of us who struggle with issues of identity and survival. If you want to find a metaphor I would respectfully suggest that you ask us what we think of who we are in relation to the world, and then listen to what we say.

My mind is not a stagnant pond. I am creative, resourceful, compassionate, loving and intelligent, and I am a very good mother indeed, even if I say it myself. I am also very caring towards my parents, in spite of everything they may or may not have done. My daughter is a PhD student, and is on course for a very successful career. On the less positive side I am very vulnerable, but I tend not to let people know how; it keeps me safer.

So a little less of the poisonous pond imagery, and perhaps a little more of the stronger than you will ever know, more resilient than you will ever understand, and how dare you suggest that something you do not understand is not real.

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I apologize if this was upsetting. But I think you missed the point of the mental image: It was God convincing me in a way I would comprehend that injuries of that kind were real. Both my family situation and doctrinal background had no room for mental injury or illness.

At the time I was struggling with my wife's situation which involved sexual abuse over several years as a grade-schooler. I believe she has or had DID herself.

LovebirdsFlying said:

I battle PTSD from a lifetime of abuse, in childhood and in marriage. It involves alcoholism and drug addiction, severe neglect, constant uprooting, multiple divorces and remarriages (both my mother and myself), verbal degradation, overdone physical discipline, and sexual violation at home, plus bullying at school. Among other things, the damage it did has impeded my ability to live productively as an independent adult. I still have not been able to maintain employment for very long at a time, and only for the past two and a half years have I been licensed to drive a car. I'm 51.

Why was I so non-functioning compared to others my age? Was it because I am somehow mentally incompetent? Absolutely not.

One therapist explained it like this. I spent most of my life buried under heaps of garbage that other people in my life constantly piled on me. Essentially I couldn't move, because I was trapped. Any progress I made was blocked when another fresh truckload was dumped on top of me. When at last I freed myself out from under it, I then had to get rid of its after-effects, so I wouldn't go around smelling like the garbage I'd been surrounded by for so long. That's where my energy has been focused. Only after it was sufficiently taken care of could I move on from where I was, developmentally, and work on learning new life skills. Until then, I didn't have the capacity. I was too busy washing.

PTSD isn't a question of what's wrong with a person. It's a question of what happened to that person. Obviously, I myself am not the garbage. Neither are the other people, really. The abuse I was subjected to, the actions, the situation, is the garbage. I didn't see an insult in that analogy. It makes sense to me, because even the most beautiful flower in the world won't bloom if it's not in an environment that gives it what it needs. My thinking and behavior can be influenced by by what I've experienced, because it was all I ever knew and I was assuming the whole world operates like a garbage dump, but that doesn't mean that I personally am polluted or toxic. People who don't know my backstory may very well observe certain things I do, and not understanding why, can *think* I am polluted or toxic. They're mistaken. Very often, the pattern is that when people do learn my history, they change their opinion of me and instead start wondering how in the heck I'm able to be as sane as I am. (God is good.)

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Hi,

One of the things I used in my life, after I started helping others like me, is this first in letters: I have PTSN. I have Post Traumatic Stress Normalcy. Normalcy is this context is a reasoned and clear response to things that hurt. Does not a peson stay away from an open flame or something hot instinctively,,,,,,almost? Does not a baby after being hurt by falling in their beginning attempts to walk, soon fear some heights. I being injured and then staying away from that thing that hurts, is normal. Is not what is called PTSD, by therapists, agreed by them to be normal?

Not only is PTSD, the theraputic words used, to do thier work in their field only, and not really to be used literally outside of the field, a normal condition, it is a benefit to society at the expense of the person with PTSN.

The benifit to society and you do see this in yourself, is all PTSN, people intercede on the behalf of others, not noticing they are doing that, to stop one other person from being injured the way they were injured, but. But. But they do it continuously and for life, without humans giving them credit for their and the wonderful contributions to the world, from them.

LOVE,

(and for you, a fellow soldier,)
...Mary Katerina., .... .

LovebirdsFlying said:

I like that, PTSN. My brother (whose thinking isn't quite right on this matter) once told me I had an extreme reaction to normal upbringing. That's because he doesn't really know what normal is. When we grow up in a certain environment, we tend to think it's what everybody experiences.

He's improving. I posted the snakebite analogy on Facebook, and his own contribution was, "Snakes bite everyone. You're not alone."

Um, no, first of all, snakes don't bite everyone. Second, there are more varieties of snakes that are harmless to humans (either they are non-venomous or the venom doesn't significantly affect humans) than there are that are dangerously toxic. So, if *those* snakes bite, usually all that's needed is basic wound care, plus antibiotics if it becomes infected. By analogy, this would leave room for the victims of a less dangerous bite to say, "Hey, I've been bitten too. It's not that big a deal. You're overreacting."

PTSD is not, as my brother thought, an extreme reaction to normal circumstances. It's exactly the opposite, a normal reaction to extreme circumstances. PTSN is a good term.

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Hi,

There, in an analogy, are snakes that bite, your brother is sounding like one of those or. When I get to work with a newbie, it takes me awhile to show the the differences between those highly intelligent and highly imaginative people who are nice to begin with and nice afterwards that actually get a PTSNormal reaction from things done or things they have seen, and the ones who cause PTSN in others.

And I would say for Christians, Matthew 7:16 is how to tell the difference. One of my guys who had three simultaneous problems, one was being a Free Mason and not understand what they really are, the other was having a mental illness of some sort, but only one part of his life's problems revolved aroung PTSD, from the recent war. With him one man claimed to have PTSD, in my company, as he a guard outside the bank and I talked. Very quickly, I told the man I was working with in private that the man in question causes PTSD in others. He does not have PTSD, or PTSN more accurately put.

In my family, my two oldest brothers cause PTSD/PTSN and it took me 50 years or more to find this out, but find it out the hard way, I did. Your brother could be one who causes, not one who has. His words so far, indicate one who causes not one who has PTSN, except. Except not everyone gets PTSN. You have to fully realize what was happening, and what could have happened.

A man I heard who was on the plane that actually bombed the German Bismark, says he cannot get PTSD, as he is not bright enough. Oddly enough, that is an indicator for being immune. And it does not mean stupid, it just means that purely wonderful contributing people, some of them if they have no imaginations, and no high level of intelligence are actually normally immune to PTSN, or snakebites in analogy.

In your brother's case, the important part for you, is to get relief from PTSN, the cheap way, the normal way that has existed for thousands of years with warriors, and You Are a Warrior, is for warriors like you to talk to you.

The amazing part of that warrior to warrior therapy that works, with the results of "You feel better now, or your relationships are better now, and You Don't Know Why." is that no matter what caused your PTSN, from things like I have to deal with such as being a "pulled the trigger type of PTSN person" to being raped, or beaten, is that it does not make a difference where you got your PTSN, as in every other aspect, each person with PTSN, is identical in that horrible feeling of PTSN, until it is shared in details with another PTSN'r who is older in combat than you are.

For you, I hate the fact, that I DO what I do with weapons, (I am trying not to say something online as others are here. Like a soldier, I am a trained **ller, and I am quick and good at it, but hate it. I hated the day, I knew I would no longer hesitate. That day is still here. It makes me sick inside to think about it, but someone has to do that kind of work. And, I did not volunteer. I was put in the position repeatedly.), and that traumatizes me. I hated the day, I became that. The Psychotic while drunk dad, didn't help, who one day (for you again), was to kill me and my two brothers as that was going to make his life better, and I have absolutely no recollection of that event every happening, even though I was there.

In my case, and yours, I fit the profile. My intelligence in not in question by anybody, even in research labs, except by me, and everyone is stunned, that I cannot see what they can see. I still cannot.

On imagination, they all worked on me to prove my imagination, is in the stratosphere also.

You obviously have PTSD, I can feel you online. Talking to geezettes like me with it, or soldiers with it helps.

LOVE,

LovebirdsFlying said:

I like that, PTSN. My brother (whose thinking isn't quite right on this matter) once told me I had an extreme reaction to normal upbringing. That's because he doesn't really know what normal is. When we grow up in a certain environment, we tend to think it's what everybody experiences.

He's improving. I posted the snakebite analogy on Facebook, and his own contribution was, "Snakes bite everyone. You're not alone."

Um, no, first of all, snakes don't bite everyone. Second, there are more varieties of snakes that are harmless to humans (either they are non-venomous or the venom doesn't significantly affect humans) than there are that are dangerously toxic. So, if *those* snakes bite, usually all that's needed is basic wound care, plus antibiotics if it becomes infected. By analogy, this would leave room for the victims of a less dangerous bite to say, "Hey, I've been bitten too. It's not that big a deal. You're overreacting."

PTSD is not, as my brother thought, an extreme reaction to normal circumstances. It's exactly the opposite, a normal reaction to extreme circumstances. PTSN is a good term.

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Hi,

I have Tinnitus. I have three tones. One in each ear, and one in the central part of my head. I have PTSD, from even an incestuous event. I have PTSD from being Transgendered. I have PTSD, from other things. I could not love my entire life, until later. I have not fully recovered from that yet. I get daily migraine headaches since 1984. There is more.

I have told you all the above, as God takes care of people even like me. Most of the time, I just try to take it one day at a time, but like God, it is really Him who has I think, given me all of these problems, but also the help to handle them, so I like a lot of people like me, have some rather stunning to other's relationship with God.

I have told you the above for the following reasons, in a set of two year private revelations all of which have been approved by a Spirtual Director based on the outcome of a fleece type of test submitted to God, like Gideon submitted his question to God, one day, I used my heart to go over to Portugal, to take care of a person, who had massive PTSD, and is totally fine with that today, at least as much as anyone can be.

All I did, in a panic of course, was to get a roadblock to helping the person online. This was in the 3 month point, after our contacts. Slowly I was making him see that PTSN, is what he had and where it came from. One night, I was cut off in a cry of agony, online. He is in Portugal. I could not get him to respond.

This part is not approved, but my Christian Mystical part is approved by Susan Geldberg, Ph.D. Psychologist and I have the paperwork for this, and this falls under that.

I said some prayers for him. The prayers came back, and like broken fragments of Manna they fell on various people on the East Coast. I was stunned. No one, including the priests here who are told, has been able to pray for me, nor can I pray for me, for at least the last five years or more. Everyone complies.

But, I was stunned. "Who, can I Not pray for?" I went over there to find out. I went in heart mode, which is an approved part of that private revelation. I looked, and I would see a Pomegrante shaped heart, (And indication of their commitment to God. In other words an indication of their yes to God.), and I had no time to think on that. Circling the heart, I talked to it. It was totally closed off to the world. I talked anyway. In a day or so, the boy felt better, and I found out that he just had a severe flashback to a time spent in a closet, hiding out when things went awry with his mom dad.

I never expected to see his heart, and I cannot ask for those things and do not ask for them. (Once I was prompted to for a priest, but still what used to be a daily part of my life, is not resident daily anymore. Other things have taken their places.) Jesus just puts me in touch with one person or another. The important part for him, that took so long, is for him to realize, he, like you, is okay. What was done to you was not okay, but he and you are okay.

That dear one inside, is what is important. You are not at fault. What was done to you, is at fault.

LOVE,
Mary Katerina., .... .

LovebirdsFlying said:

I battle PTSD from a lifetime of abuse, in childhood and in marriage. It involves alcoholism and drug addiction, severe neglect, constant uprooting, multiple divorces and remarriages (both my mother and myself), verbal degradation, overdone physical discipline, and sexual violation at home, plus bullying at school. Among other things, the damage it did has impeded my ability to live productively as an independent adult. I still have not been able to maintain employment for very long at a time, and only for the past two and a half years have I been licensed to drive a car. I'm 51.

Why was I so non-functioning compared to others my age? Was it because I am somehow mentally incompetent? Absolutely not.

One therapist explained it like this. I spent most of my life buried under heaps of garbage that other people in my life constantly piled on me. Essentially I couldn't move, because I was trapped. Any progress I made was blocked when another fresh truckload was dumped on top of me. When at last I freed myself out from under it, I then had to get rid of its after-effects, so I wouldn't go around smelling like the garbage I'd been surrounded by for so long. That's where my energy has been focused. Only after it was sufficiently taken care of could I move on from where I was, developmentally, and work on learning new life skills. Until then, I didn't have the capacity. I was too busy washing.

PTSD isn't a question of what's wrong with a person. It's a question of what happened to that person. Obviously, I myself am not the garbage. Neither are the other people, really. The abuse I was subjected to, the actions, the situation, is the garbage. I didn't see an insult in that analogy. It makes sense to me, because even the most beautiful flower in the world won't bloom if it's not in an environment that gives it what it needs. My thinking and behavior can be influenced by by what I've experienced, because it was all I ever knew and I was assuming the whole world operates like a garbage dump, but that doesn't mean that I personally am polluted or toxic. People who don't know my backstory may very well observe certain things I do, and not understanding why, can *think* I am polluted or toxic. They're mistaken. Very often, the pattern is that when people do learn my history, they change their opinion of me and instead start wondering how in the heck I'm able to be as sane as I am. (God is good.)

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I agree with you.... I am also a person with DID, and this analogy works for me. The dumptruck load of junk and garbage are the traumas, the lies that were fed to me, etc ....I didn't merit the garbage, didn't ask for it, but it was dumped on and piled on anyways.... relentlessly, day after day.... it is because of God's sustaining and drawing me, and loving me, healing me.... that I am here today. Was I resilient? Yes, I had to be. But just like the book of Psalms says.... that when we have a broken bone that wasn't treated and grew back wrong, and the Great Physician has to come and rebreak it, and set it, put in supports, wrap it up so it can heal properly ..... He is able to cause us to be joyful in the midst of the healing process.... even the rebreaking....

Psalm 51:8
8Make me to hear joy and gladness;

that the bones which You have broken may rejoice.

Lies are toxins that most of us unknowingly latched onto during negative and/or traumatic experiences in our pasts.
We are made free, when we begin to ask the Lord for His truth to replace the lies we were taught all our lives.

John 8:32
32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Such a good comparison. I don't get that people don't think we need treatment. I have PTSD.

.

LovebirdsFlying said:

Bingo!

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Hi,

And I still come across people who have been misdiagnosed, their entire lives.

When they find out, that their condition is a Normal response, and I have it, from this or that incident, in which I give all the details to them only, they are better.

It also never goes away. You are a reluctant warrior. That also is not the traditional words used. It is more accurate though.

Also as mentioned before, PTSD, should be called PTSN.

One technique used, to lessen some of this, is thinking about a trauma or incident you can't handle, and then moving your eyes, left then think, center then think, right then think. Feel is the terminology for most females and some makes. Recall the incident, with eyes left , then center, then right.

They said, that moving a horror to different parts of your eyesight, moves it internally to different parts of your brain, then natural processes take place, to make an impossible situation easier, or almost go away.

Walking, with that left right left right motion of the feet, while thinking of a horror that won't go away helps for the same reasons, they say.

Horrors, get stuck in one part of the brain. Moving them around is what dreams normally do, but cannot with a sufficient horror, which is then skipped.

Eyes sitting or anywhere, or walking, and actively thinking about a horror, causes you to force that horror into all parts of the brain, just like dreams do., they say.

LOVE,