Indigenous Peoples Day/Columbus Day?

For this holiday.....

  • I don't know the history, and support it being Indigenous Peoples Day.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I know the history, and support it being Indigenous Peoples Day.

    Votes: 21 70.0%
  • I don't know the history, and support it being Columbus Day

    Votes: 1 3.3%
  • I know the history, and support it being Columbus Day

    Votes: 4 13.3%
  • I don't know the history, and am unsure

    Votes: 1 3.3%
  • I know the history, and am unsure

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 3 10.0%

  • Total voters
    30
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Black Dog

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Again, you misunderstand or ignore the point.

And dearie, what my ancestors did is for my ancestors to deal with, NOT me. I refuse to take responsibility for actions I had nothing to do with. I have nothing to apologize for.



Scalping, I thought, was the white man's thing - a sorta trophy. It's why the term Redskin is so offensive to some.

I don't think you need to apologize for anything. Just saying the people who were part of killing the Native Americans are no different than Nazis who killed Jews. And that there is very little difference between what happened in the Jewish holocaust, and what happened in the Native American holocaust, yet people treat the two completely differently. Obviously racism would explain it. Can you think of any other reason?
 
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AHH who-stole-my-name

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I'd like to see you make it across the Atlantic in a wooden dingy blown by the wind and tell me he didn't do anything.
He didn't make it across the ocean in a dingy, either and please stop throwing around this straw man. I never said he didn't accomplish something. I said the something he accomplished was the devastation of a whole group of people.
 
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AHH who-stole-my-name

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No, I was not referring to you. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Your posts are fine. I was referring to other sidetrack issues that were being brought up.
No problem. These people seem intent on concentrating on his trip over here and not what he did after he arrived. My point is everything he did after he came set up a standard for those to follow and millions paid the price.
 
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AHH who-stole-my-name

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But he said bad words in his journal, ya know.

Also never mind that mostly what killed Native Americans after Columbus was disease and illness.
would the dilapidated health of those who dredged in the mines not effect their ability to word of disease?
 
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AHH who-stole-my-name

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Did it ever cross your mind that many of the Natives were savages?
Of course not. They were angels of omnipotent grace and innocence.

Savage_3_450.png

This I take exception to. Savages! By what right or standard do you call them savages? Have you ever read up on native American civilization?
 
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aniello

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Sherman’s War of Extermination

As soon as the War to Prevent Southern Independence was concluded the U.S. government commenced a new war against the Plains Indians. On June 27, 1865, barely two months after the end of the war, General William Tecumseh Sherman was given command of the Military District of the Missouri, which was one of five military divisions the government had divided the country into. There was never any attempt to hide the fact that the war against the Plains Indians was, first and foremost, an indirect subsidy to the government-subsidized transcontinental railroads. Railroad corporations were the financial backbone of the Republican Party, which essentially monopolized national politics from 1865 to 1913, beginning with the election of the first Republican President, the renowned railroad industry lawyer/lobbyist, Abraham Lincoln of the Illinois Central.

General Sherman wrote in his memoirs (p. 775) that as soon as the war ended, "My thoughts and feelings at once reverted to the construction of the great Pacific Railway...I put myself in communication with the parties engaged in the work, visiting them in person, and I assured them that I would afford them all possible assistance and encouragement." "We are not going to let a few thieving, ragged Indians check and stop the progress [of the railroads]," Sherman wrote to Ulysses S. Grant in 1867 (See Michael Fellman, Citizen Sherman, p. 264).

Lincoln’s old personal friend Grenville Dodge, who he had appointed as a military general, initially recommended that slaves be made of the Indians so that they could be forced to dig the railroad beds from Iowa to California (See Dee Brown, Hear that Lonesome Whistle Blow, p. 64). The government decided instead to try to murder as many Indians as possible, women and children included, and then to imprison the survivors in concentration camps euphemistically called "reservations."

When he became president, Grant made his old pal Sherman the commanding general of the U.S. Army and another "Civil War" luminary, General Phillip Sheridan, assumed command on the ground in the West. "Thus the great triumvirate of the Union Civil War effort," writes Fellman (P. 260), "formulated and enacted military Indian policy until reaching, by the 1880s, what Sherman sometimes referred to as the final solution of the Indian problem’" (emphasis added). Other former Union Army officers joined in the slaughter. This included John Pope, O.O. Howard, Nelson Miles, Alfred Terry, E.O.C. Ord, C.C. Augur, Edward Canby, George Armstrong Custer, Benjamin Garrison, and Winfield Scott Hancock.

"Sherman viewed Indians as he viewed recalcitrant Southerners during the war and newly freed people after: resisters to the legitimate forces of an ordered society," writes John Marzalek, author of Sherman: A Soldier’s Passion for Order (p. 380). "During the Civil War," Marzalek continues, "Sherman and Sheridan had practiced a total war of destruction of property...Now the army, in its Indian warfare, often wiped out entire villages... Sherman insisted that the only answer to the Indian problem was all-out war — of the kind he had utilized against the Confederacy."

Sherman, Sheridan, Grant, and the other "Civil War luminaries" all considered Indians to be subhuman and racially inferior to whites, a belief that they used to "justify" their policy of extermination. Sherman also believed that the freed slaves would become "wild beasts" if they were not strictly controlled by whites. "The Indians give a fair illustration of the fate of the negroes if they are released from the control of the whites," he said (See Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier’s Life, p. 297). Sherman sought "a racial cleansing of the land," wrote Fellman. "All the Indians will have to be killed or be maintained as a species of paupers," Sherman declared. Fellman (p. 271) documents that Sherman "gave Sheridan prior authorization to slaughter as many women and children as well as men Sheridan or his subordinates felt was necessary when they attacked Indian villages."

Sherman and Sheridan’s troops conducted more than 1,000 attacks on Indian villages, mostly in the winter months when families would be together. Orders were given to kill everyone and everything, including dogs. A war of extermination was also waged on the American buffalo, since it was the Indians’ chief source of food, winter clothing, and other things (the Indians even made fish hooks out of dried buffalo bones).

The "Indian Wars" were actually a continuation of the policy of extermination that commenced by the Lincoln administration during the War to Prevent Southern Independence. One of the first attacks was the notorious Sand Creek Massacre of November 1864. There was a Cheyenne and Arapaho village located on Sand Creek in southeastern Colorado that had been assured by the U.S. government that it would be safe there. However, another Union Army "luminary," Colonel John Chivington, carried out the government’s plan of reneging on this promise. As described in Crimsoned Prairie: The Indian Wars, by S.L.A. Marshall who authored thirty books on American military history, Chivington’s orders to his troops were: "I want you to kill and scalp all, big and little; nits make lice."

Marshall describes how the troops "began a full day given over to blood-lust, orgiastic mutilation, rapine, and destruction — with Chivington...looking on and approving." Upon returning to Denver, Chivington "and his raiders demonstrated around Denver, waving their trophies, more than one hundred drying scalps. They were acclaimed as conquering heroes, which was what they had sought mainly." "Colorado soldiers have once again covered themselves with glory," one Republican Party newspaper in Colorado proclaimed (Marshall, p. 39).

An even more disgusting account of the Sand Creek massacre is given in the famous book by Dee Brown, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West (p. 89). "When the troops came up to the [squaws], they ran out and showed their persons to let the soldiers know they were squaws and begged for mercy, but the soldiers shot them all...There seemed to be indiscriminate slaughter of men, women and children...The squaws offered no resistance. Every one...was scalped."

This type of a war of extermination or genocide was repeated hundreds of times from 1865-1890, when Sherman’s "final solution" was finally realized. Commenting on the butchering of Indian women and children by Custer, Superintendent of Indian Affairs Thomas Murphy remarked in 1868 that it was "a spectacle most humiliating, an injustice unparalleled, a national crime most revolting, that must, sooner or later, bring down upon us or our posterity the judgment of Heaven" (quoted in Dee Brown, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, p. 157).

Custer found that his order to "kill or hang all the warriors" was "dangerous" to his soldiers because it meant "separating them from the old men, women, and children" (Brown, p. 169). So he decided to just kill everyone, women and children included. Marshall, who was the U.S. government’s official historian of the European Theater of War in World War II and the author of thirty books on U.S. military history, called Sheridan’s orders to Custer "the most brutal orders ever published to American troops." Sheridan is credited with the saying that "the only good Indian is a dead Indian," a policy that was endorsed by both Sherman and Grant (who has laughingly been portrayed by court historians recently as some kind of racial hero).

It was the barbaric behavior of these "Civil War luminaries" during the quarter century after Appomattox that was used to "justify" such things as the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Filipinos by the U.S. Army during the 1899-1902 Filipino revolt against American imperialism. President Theodore Roosevelt "justified" this mass slaughter by calling Filipinos "savages, half-breeds, a wild and ignorant people." William Tecumseh Sherman himself could not have said it better.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And so, 60 to 70 years later, who else has a "final solution"?

Custer died for your sins.

Woste Wasicus Sha'cha'n be.

Wolakota, peace.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yea, he "discovered" a land that was already populated with millions of Indigenous people. Some discovery...

And even if we tried to spin it as the first European to discover the land, that would be just as equally false. The original discoverers came over ten thousand years ago and the first Europeans to step foot here were the Vikings. So either way, Columbus loses that claim.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Someone help explain to me the opposition against getting rid of Columbus Day.

Given what we know about the man why should he be celebrated?

How is this a politically divisive issue?

How is this "political correctness"?

I've been speaking against Columbus Day for years because he was a rapacious tyrant who the only truly good thing we can say about is that he accidentally bumped into Americas while being in every way wrong about his ideas about the size of the globe.

Columbus didn't believe the earth was round while everyone else believed it was flat; everyone with even a little bit of education would have known the spherical shape of the world--and its size had been known in Europe for over two thousand years since the ancient Greeks. Everyone knew that--in theory--you could reach "the East" by sailing west but nobody in Europe knew there were two massive continents in the middle of the vast ocean and so the idea of doing so was regarded as suicide mission.

Columbus was wrong about the size of the earth, everyone else was right.

Columbus' mission would have ended in abysmal failure and we'd never have known about him if there weren't two continents full of sprawling nations, empires, and civilizations that he accidentally bumped into.

And further Columbus' accidental bump was one of the worst things that could have ever happened--resulting in extermination, slavery, mass rape (including children), and an entire history of brutality against entire people groups on a scale that has scarcely ever happened in human history.

And no, whatever cruelties, wars, and catastrophes which the indigenous peoples had engaged in do not render the entire history of European conquest null and void. Just as the fact that African tribes engaging in slave-trading does not excuse or make the Atlantic Slave Trade and four hundred years of institutionalized slavery in the American colonies/US less the horrendous evil that it was.

This is not political correctness--this is acknowledging the savagery and brutality of history. This is about telling the truth and making an effort to take a stand in the face of this history and admit it for what it is.

I am truly dumbfounded by those who think we should keep Columbus Day because this is all some sort of politically correct plot to engage in thought policing.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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lasthero

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People have a trumped up definition of 'genocide' nowadays. It's supposed to mean an extinction of a race, but now the going idea is simply 'killing a bunch of people in a culture'.

Did it ever cross your mind that many of the Natives were savages?
Of course not. They were angels of omnipotent grace and innocence.

Savage_3_450.png

I fail to see what your point is.
 
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Red Fox

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This I take exception to. Savages! By what right or standard do you call them savages? Have you ever read up on native American civilization?

While I was looking through one of the NDN groups I often frequent, I stumbled across this particular quote, which I feel goes along with your comment: "When your people came to our land, it was not with open arms, but with Bibles and guns and disease. You took our land. You killed us with your guns and disease, then had the arrogance to call us godless savages." The quote was also accompanied by this article: Celebrating Genocide – Christopher Columbus’ Invasion of America.
 
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Papias

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Yes, you quoted it correctly but the words were someone else's and P was just engaging in satire or sarcasm by repeating them incredulously... The claim was the other poster's claim.

Thanks for trying (twice!) to set things straight.

While we disagree on some things (I may post more - I'm in the middle of trying to catch up on this thread), I've enjoyed our discussion. It's good to have a discussion where we agree on most of the basic facts of the situation.

smiles-

Papias
 
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TerranceL

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Crazy Liberals......The attempted extermination of a people isn't genocide, it's just kilin' a few folks. They don't count anyway because they weren't Christians.

Ok folks get it straight, which is it? Was columbus a evil slaver or a evil guy who tried to commit genocide, you don't get to have it both ways.
 
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TerranceL

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He brought his European filth to a clean disease free place and they passed Syphilis to each other through their shared rape victims

Ok your just trolling right now, sorry I didn't realize you were a poe.

"clean disease free place"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071659/


Let me guess, you think Columbus did all this with a time machine thousands of years before he was born?
 
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Hetta

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Blame bacteria, not Columbus, for that. Well, that and their primitive medicine. Have a cold? Dance around the fire and sing!
How can you not know that the Europeans brought disease with them? And how advanced do think European medicine was at that time? Do you think they had alternatives of their own other than blood-letting? I'd trust the native people's ways of curing disease - which were herb based actually, not dancing around fires which is incredibly patronizing and racist on your part - than someone letting me bleed for a day to "let out the bad humors."

https://omrf.org/2013/10/10/columbus-brought-more-than-ships-to-the-new-world/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/did-columbus-bring-syphilis-to-europe/
 
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TerranceL

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This I take exception to. Savages! By what right or standard do you call them savages? Have you ever read up on native American civilization?
Yes.

They were just as savage and blood thirsty as the rest of humanity.

It doesn't do anybody any good to mythologize the indians.
 
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TerranceL

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Ok. Now that you've given your gracious assessment of my answer in which I included a link, why don't you illuminate the rest of us in devulging any proof you have to the contrary.
The Crow Creek massacre, 1325.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crow_Creek_massacre

Many of the bodies are missing limbs; the attackers may have taken them as trophies, scavenger animals or birds may have carried them away, or some limbs may have been left unburied in the Crow Creek village.[13] Authors Willey and Emerson state that "they had been killed, mutilated, and scavenged before being buried".[14] "Tongue removal, decapitation, and dismemberment of the Crow Creek victims may have been based on standard aboriginal butchering practices developed on large game animals".[15] These are among the mutilations discovered at the Crow Creek site. In addition, scalping was performed, bodies were burned, and there is evidence of limbs being removed by various means. As stated in the Willey’s dissertation, many of the mutilations suffered by the victims of the Crow Creek massacre could have been traumatic enough to result in death.[4]

A conservative estimate of villagers who suffered scalping is 90%, but it could have been as high as 100%. This is based on skeletal remains that exhibit cuts on their skulls indicative of scalping.[12] Men, women, and children were scalped; the only difference was that younger children were cut higher on the skull than other groups.[12]

The indians were happily scalping each other hundreds of years before columbus.
 
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Papias

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It was the barbaric behavior of these "Civil War luminaries" during the quarter century after Appomattox that was used to "justify" such things as the mass murder .........

And so, 60 to 70 years later, who else has a "final solution"?

I was surprised to learn that Hitler got much of his idea of how to deal with his "Jewish problem" in Germany by learning how America had dealt with it's "Indian problem" by using "boarding schools" to remove the Natives from their communities, and prevent them from maintaining their culture.

More is here, at the top right of page 18:

Hitler’s “Final Solution” Hitler claimed he owed much of his knowledge about concentration camps and the practice of genocide to his studies of American and English history. He admired the Camps for the Boer’s in South Africa and the American Indians of the Wild West. According to historian, John Toland, Hitler “often praised to his inner circle, the efficiency [of] America’s extermination - by starvation and uneven combat, of the red savages..​

http://www.sagchip.org/ziibiwing/planyourvisit/pdf/aibscurrguide.pdf

It looks like the parallels pointed out on this thread between Columbus and Hitler have a historical basis.

Papias
 
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