Torah before Sinai?

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BukiRob

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We see glimpses of at least elements of the Torah long before Moses and Sinai.


In Gen we see a sacrificial system that includes (presumably) a blood sin offering (Able’s offering) and grain offerings (Cain.) Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals. We see this mysterious figure called the High Priest Melchizedek. This is almost certainly Shem. 1 Chronicles 1:24-27 gives us the genealogy from Shem to Abraham. In Gen 26:5 we see G-d saying of Abraham: because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."


This is far more detailed and elaborate than simply saying Abraham obeyed me... so it begs the question where did Abraham get the Commandments, Statutes and Laws? Only one of two answers is possible. Either G-d gave them to Abraham directly OR Abraham received them from Shem through Noah. While BOTH are possible Occam’s razor tells us that the simplest answer is the most likely answer. The most likely answer is that Noah gave them to Abraham since Noah was still alive for the first 39 years of Abraham’s life. Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it.


This scripture to me, suggests rather strongly that Abraham was given the way in which he should go by the family Patriarchs... Noah and then Shem. Some commentators suggest that Melchizedek was in not a man but this would largely be in conflict with the most general rabbinic view as to who Melchizedek was. The most commonly accepted rabbinic view is that Shem was also King of Salem and the Priest Melchizedek. This makes the most sense since it is obvious that Abraham knows and recognizes Melchizedek and his priestly authority.


Clearly we have somethings going on that are not explained in detail. We have Commandments, Laws, Statues and Ordinances. We have a sacrificial system and a priest of El Elyon described as "now he was a priest of God Most High." in Gen 14:18.


It’s of import that we recognize that Torah is almost exclusively dealing with Israel and not really about the broader picture of mankind leading up to the Exodus. However it does seem to me as a distinct possibility that after Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden, that G-d offered the Torah to all of mankind which he (mankind) rejected. For if no form of Torah existed how could man be described as (gen 6:5)? Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


Then we see that Adonai speaking of Noah vs 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. We are left with few options here... either G-d simply chose Noah OR Noah was an upright man following in Adonai's way. Once again, if we apply the simplest answer as being the most likely we find it more likely that Noah was attempting to walk with G-d. We are told in vs 9 that Noah was a blameless man in his time that he was righteous. Clearly he was walking with Adonai... and apart from having the decree's statues, and commandments to follow such a thing would be impossible since Grace did not yet exist since Messiah had not yet come. As a result the indwelling of the Ruach could not be an answer for explanation of Gen 6 vs 9.

We also see a clear picture that Job was a righteous man. If Torah did not exist we are left with rather difficult explanations as to how Noah, Shem and Job are righteous men… how would the know what is right in the eyes of Adonai especially when we are told on a number of instances that man doing right in his own eyes is evil?


Furthermore, we see that the Tree of Life is in the Garden… we know Yeshua is the Tree of life and the Torah is called a tree of life.
 

BelieveTheWord

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They certainly had a Torah of sorts. However I don't see Jacob's marriage to Rachel after Leah to be considered a sin, though later such a marriage would be sin. I doubt Shem was a priest in the same way as the Aaronic/Tabernacle priesthood. Also the patriarchs made sacrifices in various places. I see a level of progressive revelation. Yeshua, while not adding to the Torah, gave deeper spiritual understanding.
 
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Truthfrees

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2 great posts.

My addition to this discussion would be that Noah was found perfect in all his generations. Genesis 6:9

This has been interpreted by some that the sons of God had children by the daughters of men and produced hybrid giants who were not perfect in their human generations. Genesis 6:2-4

Meaning Noah and his family were the only ones left with perfectly human dna.
 
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BukiRob

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2 great posts.

My addition to this discussion would be that Noah was found perfect in all his generations. Genesis 6:9

This has been interpreted by some that the sons of God had children by the daughters of men and produced hybrid giants who were not perfect in their human generations. Genesis 6:2-4

Meaning Noah and his family were the only ones left with totally human dna.


Ive heard that line of thinking as well... Ecc says that there is nothing new under the sun that which has been will be again.

When one asks the question about what makes "as in the days of Noah..." special you see the entire sentence surrounding that clause and there is nothing unique about it.

"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be."

To me this can only mean one of two things... 1) that the coming of Messiah will be just like any other day (which is most unlikely as Messiah says that the elect will see the warning signs) or 2) hat something about the Days of Noah are unique.

We know for certain that one of the signs is a great increase in knowledge. What is the 1 thing that man has discovered that in no other time in recorded history has ever occurred? Man has unlocked ( or as I believe REDISCOVERED) the genomic sequence of DNA
 
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Truthfrees

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Ive heard that line of thinking as well... Ecc says that there is nothing new under the sun that which has been will be again.

When one asks the question about what makes "as in the days of Noah..." special you see the entire sentence surrounding that clause and there is nothing unique about it.

"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be."

To me this can only mean one of two things... 1) that the coming of Messiah will be just like any other day (which is most unlikely as Messiah says that the elect will see the warning signs) or 2) hat something about the Days of Noah are unique.

We know for certain that one of the signs is a great increase in knowledge. What is the 1 thing that man has discovered that in no other time in recorded history has ever occurred? Man has unlocked ( or as I believe REDISCOVERED) the genomic sequence of DNA
Awesome! Yes.

And man is presently tampering with human dna, adding genetic material from other non-human sources.

On the topic of TNK and Torah righteousness, I'd like to add scriptures on what is said about Noah's and Abraham's righteousness:

HEBREWS 11 - RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH
4. Abel - b faith he was righteous
5. Enoch - by faith pleased God
7. Noah - righteous by faith
8. Abraham
11. Sarah
20. Isaac
21. Jacob
22. Joseph
23. Moses
32-33. Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets
 
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Soyeong

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Clearly he was walking with Adonai... and apart from having the decree's statues, and commandments to follow such a thing would be impossible since Grace did not yet exist since Messiah had not yet come. As a result the indwelling of the Ruach could not be an answer for explanation of Gen 6 vs 9.

John 1:16-17 says grace upon grace, so it is false that grace did not exist before the Messiah. The Holy Spirit also had a role in the OT.
 
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BukiRob

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I know that one of the arguments presented concerning the "sons of G-d" in Genesis are angles but this is problematic since Messiah talks about we will be like the Angles in heaven and not give or be given in marriage. Matt 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

this means either the angles have NEVER had the ability to procreate OR that was taken away as a result of Genesis...

I tend to lean towards the former since Messiah spoke directly about their inability to marry or be given in marriage.
 
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Lulav

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I believe that Abraham got them directly from G-d.

1And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2And the L-RD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The Torah Abraham kept were the instructions G-d gave to him alone for him and his family, such as circumcision.
 
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BukiRob

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I believe that Abraham got them directly from G-d.

1And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2And the L-RD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The Torah Abraham kept were the instructions G-d gave to him alone for him and his family, such as circumcision.

I will admit that as a possibility.

However, I think it is less likely than they were handed down to Abraham from Noah and Shem. That certainly does not in any way, exclude the reality that Abraham heard G-d speaking directly to him.

Family is family so to suggest that Abraham never knew Noah or Shem is IMO absurd. After all it is rare that one does not know one's elders in the family.
 
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mercy1061

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We see glimpses of at least elements of the Torah long before Moses and Sinai.


In Gen we see a sacrificial system that includes (presumably) a blood sin offering (Able’s offering) and grain offerings (Cain.) Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals. We see this mysterious figure called the High Priest Melchizedek. This is almost certainly Shem. 1 Chronicles 1:24-27 gives us the genealogy from Shem to Abraham. In Gen 26:5 we see G-d saying of Abraham: because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."


This is far more detailed and elaborate than simply saying Abraham obeyed me... so it begs the question where did Abraham get the Commandments, Statutes and Laws? Only one of two answers is possible. Either G-d gave them to Abraham directly OR Abraham received them from Shem through Noah. While BOTH are possible Occam’s razor tells us that the simplest answer is the most likely answer. The most likely answer is that Noah gave them to Abraham since Noah was still alive for the first 39 years of Abraham’s life. Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it.


This scripture to me, suggests rather strongly that Abraham was given the way in which he should go by the family Patriarchs... Noah and then Shem. Some commentators suggest that Melchizedek was in not a man but this would largely be in conflict with the most general rabbinic view as to who Melchizedek was. The most commonly accepted rabbinic view is that Shem was also King of Salem and the Priest Melchizedek. This makes the most sense since it is obvious that Abraham knows and recognizes Melchizedek and his priestly authority.


Clearly we have somethings going on that are not explained in detail. We have Commandments, Laws, Statues and Ordinances. We have a sacrificial system and a priest of El Elyon described as "now he was a priest of God Most High." in Gen 14:18.


It’s of import that we recognize that Torah is almost exclusively dealing with Israel and not really about the broader picture of mankind leading up to the Exodus. However it does seem to me as a distinct possibility that after Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden, that G-d offered the Torah to all of mankind which he (mankind) rejected. For if no form of Torah existed how could man be described as (gen 6:5)? Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


Then we see that Adonai speaking of Noah vs 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. We are left with few options here... either G-d simply chose Noah OR Noah was an upright man following in Adonai's way. Once again, if we apply the simplest answer as being the most likely we find it more likely that Noah was attempting to walk with G-d. We are told in vs 9 that Noah was a blameless man in his time that he was righteous. Clearly he was walking with Adonai... and apart from having the decree's statues, and commandments to follow such a thing would be impossible since Grace did not yet exist since Messiah had not yet come. As a result the indwelling of the Ruach could not be an answer for explanation of Gen 6 vs 9.

We also see a clear picture that Job was a righteous man. If Torah did not exist we are left with rather difficult explanations as to how Noah, Shem and Job are righteous men… how would the know what is right in the eyes of Adonai especially when we are told on a number of instances that man doing right in his own eyes is evil?


Furthermore, we see that the Tree of Life is in the Garden… we know Yeshua is the Tree of life and the Torah is called a tree of life.
You presented some very interesting points, I would not say Shem was Melchizedek, Shem received his calling of priesthood from Noah.I dont recall Shem ever being called a High Priest in Torah. Even a High Priest is the son of a High Priest. Torah never calls Noah a High Priest, although he did build the ark and offer sacrifice, only his family was saved.
At one time under Samuel's leadership, Israel had no king, so every man did what was right in his own eyes. Israel did evil when they asked for a king to rule over them when G_d was a already their king. When G_d was their king, and Samuel was their priest and prophet, every man did what was right in their own eyes. It is not evil for every man to obey the law of liberty, read Torah, then do what he understand to be right from Torah.
 
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BukiRob

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You presented some very interesting points, I would not say Shem was Melchizedek, Shem received his calling of priesthood from Noah.I dont recall Shem ever being called a High Priest in Torah. Even a High Priest is the son of a High Priest. Torah never calls Noah a High Priest, although he did build the ark and offer sacrifice, only his family was saved.
At one time under Samuel's leadership, Israel had no king, so every man did what was right in his own eyes. Israel did evil when they aaked for a king to rules over them when G_d was a already their king. When G_d was their king, and Samuel was their priest and prophet, every man did what was right in their own eyes. It is not evil to obey the law of liberty, read Torah, then do what you understand to be right from Torah.

I get what you are saying... that said, Noah was the eldest man and the only man living upright before Adonai outside of Shem. You are right about the title High Priest but no such title existed prior to the usage of the term with Melchizedek. I DO know that the general view is that Shem is Melchizedek amongst Judaism.

I think it is probably right and makes the most sense.
 
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mercy1061

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I get what you are saying... that said, Noah was the eldest man and the only man living upright before Adonai outside of Shem. You are right about the title High Priest but no such title existed prior to the usage of the term with Melchizedek. I DO know that the general view is that Shem is Melchizedek amongst Judaism.

I think it is probably right and makes the most sense.
Well that means Noah a gentile, is also a High Priest, his father. We know a son is not greater than his father.
 
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BukiRob

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Well that means Noah a gentile, is also a High Priest, his father. We know a son is not greater than his father.

That is true as long as Noah is alive. Abraham is 39 when Noah is alive leaving Shem to fill that role High Priest.
 
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Open Heart

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We see glimpses of at least elements of the Torah long before Moses and Sinai.
Glimpses of law are not the same as having Torah. The only thing other than Natural Law that Abraham had, the only thing specific to Torah, was circumcision. People before Torah were not lawless. They simply had a universal set of laws, rather than the laws given specifically to Israel at Sinai.

As for blood offerings, this was a cultural practice specific to the fertile crescent. We know from instances in the Torah, such as Aaron giving a sin offering of incense, that blood offerings were not always given.

"Each doing what is right in their own eyes" simply refers to our rationalizing what we want to do in our sinful nature. It doesn't mean there is no consciousness of Natural Law or Torah, no Golden Rule.
 
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BukiRob

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Glimpses of law are not the same as having Torah. The only thing other than Natural Law that Abraham had, the only thing specific to Torah, was circumcision. People before Torah were not lawless. They simply had a universal set of laws, rather than the laws given specifically to Israel at Sinai.

As for blood offerings, this was a cultural practice specific to the fertile crescent. We know from instances in the Torah, such as Aaron giving a sin offering of incense, that blood offerings were not always given.

"Each doing what is right in their own eyes" simply refers to our rationalizing what we want to do in our sinful nature. It doesn't mean there is no consciousness of Natural Law or Torah, no Golden Rule.

Scripture says otherwise. Funny you seem to do this a lot.... you say things without backing any of it up with scripture.

I think I'll side with with G-d has to say on doing things your own way....

Gen 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
 
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BukiRob

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Please provide a quality SCIENTIFIC source for this claim.

Provide evidence it didn't happen that way. Your claim is no less authoritative than saying it did happen...

Which is more plausible? G-d created man in his image and called it 'Good' Most of creation undefiled by man is breathtaking...

Is it more plausible that the pre flood civilization were extortionately advanced; there are ruins that are unexplainable in there stone work that we are STILL not capable of duplicating. That early man was HIGHLY technologically advanced and the nephilim and perversions alluded to in genesis were a result of corrupted DNA because MAN tinkered with it.....

OR

As you would suggest, angles came down from heaven slept, with women and the resulting offspring were these giants....

Of course one has to COMPLETELY IGNORE the fact that Yeshua himself indicates that Angles are incapable of reproduction.....

I submit the far more like and plausible answer is man was so advanced technologically that we are just now rediscovering things mankind knew before the Flood.
 
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BukiRob

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As for blood offerings, this was a cultural practice specific to the fertile crescent. We know from instances in the Torah, such as Aaron giving a sin offering of incense, that blood offerings were not always given.

"Each doing what is right in their own eyes" simply refers to our rationalizing what we want to do in our sinful nature. It doesn't mean there is no consciousness of Natural Law or Torah, no Golden Rule.


Wow are you just so way off base.... first off, ADAM and EVE were the ones who introduce Blood sacrifices and it was to G-D!

Secondly Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals and 2 of clean animals were taken and 7 pairs of clean were taken on the ark. Noah sacrificed one of each of the clean animals when they left the ark.

The idea that you are so blindly anchored to Torah is only for Jews that you are willing to distort what is there in plain sight is amazing to me.

Since scripture is largely dealing with ISRAEL it would stand to reason that Adonai did nto see fit to go into great detail about the Torah before Israel.

The fact of the matter is taht the Tree of Life is in the Garden. Even little children know the Torah is called a tree of life....
Sabbath is there BEFORE Siania... Torah is in the garden...

There are plenty of clues....

YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO OPEN YOUR EYES TO SEE
 
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Open Heart

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Scripture says otherwise. Funny you seem to do this a lot.... you say things without backing any of it up with scripture.
I've back it up with scripture SO MANY TIMES, that I don't feel it is always necessary to repeat myself. "the LORD said, Speak to the Children of ISRAEL..." He didn't say speak to the world. This is repeated a zillion times throughout Torah. Torah is given to Israel.
 
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Open Heart

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Provide evidence it didn't happen that way. Your claim is no less authoritative than saying it did happen...
You can't prove a negative. It is those making the positive statement that have to provide evidence to back up their claim. So go for it. Otherwise I say you are just gossiping.

Scientists have taken strands of human DNA from the lab and spliced them into human beings using viruses as the delivery system. They have NOT used animal DNA, they have not had humans and animals procreate together (it is impossible). Now we DO have humans that share animal PARTS and vice versa such as humans that are given pig hearts or tigers that are given human brain neurons. This is not the same as splicing DNA.
 
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