Salvation Through Sanctification

ZacharyB

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Maybe personal testimony would be helpful in lending some weight to this discussion. I personally don't have a strong assurance of either sides. I believe that Jesus is God's son, was crucified and resurrected, but sometimes I just don't have much drive to do what God's Word says, I don't feel like a Christian you might say.
If I may ask, have you noticed in your life that after accepting Christ, a greater desire to do what God wants? Have you noticed a power that was not available to you before you were saved? I know this is personal, but it would be useful to me to know how this topic applies to people's lives on a personal level.
Okay, again I suggest that you believe the many passages about
obeying (i.e. choosing to obey) God's commandments.
E.G. Jesus said a few times: "If you love Me, obey My commands".
So, just from this we can ask: Do people go to heaven who do not love Jesus?
And there are many other similar passages and questions.

Again, I ask: Is God a bluffer, or a deceiver, or a liar ...
when He puts all of these many warnings in Scripture?

Do not believe what your church is teaching ... believe Scripture!
Your pastor is responsible for his sheep ...
but the sheep can lose their salvation, if they believe OSAS false doctrine.


ALL habitual unrepentant liars will be thrown into the lake of fire,
but is a pastor lying if he just withholds spiritual Truth?
I.E. is deceiving in the lying category?
 
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cuja1

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Okay, again I suggest that you believe the many passages about
obeying (i.e. choosing to obey) God's commandments.
E.G. Jesus said a few times: "If you love Me, obey My commands".
So, just from this we can ask: Do people go to heaven who do not love Jesus?
And there are many other similar passages and questions.

Again, I ask: Is God a bluffer, or a deceiver, or a liar ...
when He puts all of these many warnings in Scripture?

Do not believe what your church is teaching ... believe Scripture!
Your pastor is responsible for his sheep ...
but the sheep can lose their salvation, if they believe OSAS false doctrine.


ALL habitual unrepentant liars will be thrown into the lake of fire,
but is a pastor lying if he just withholds spiritual Truth?
I.E. is deceiving in the lying category?

There is a loophole with the OSAS doctrine, which is, as I understand it, that if a person doesn't try to obey God then they weren't really saved in the first place. So in my opinion, it's like people on both sides of the argument are saying the same thing, but in a different way.

Like I said, I can't make up my mind on this. I know that I was able to quit smoking only through God's power. It was not my own personal effort that did this. Yes, maybe to some extent, but it was amazing how easy it was when I finally decided to quit. If someone would have told me to quit 5 months early, even 1 week earlier, I wouldn't have been able to do it. It was God's power that allowed me to quit. God got me to a place where I could do it.

On the other hand, there are still many sins that I haven't been able to conquer, and most of the time I don't feel like or even try to do what God wants me to do. I guess I'm going to hell, I don't know. So it'd be nice to hear from someone who believes OSAS and how that has impacted their lives.

Philippians 2:13
13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

This verse tells me that God is the one that gives us the DESIRE to please Him.
Without this desire, we will never be able to please Him. If you asked me for a drink of water and I gave you one but you could tell I really hated giving you a drink of water, how would that make you feel? How must God feel when people begrudgingly serve Him? If I give money to the poor just so I get to go to heaven, do you think that would make God happy?

I can see both sides of the argument. So it would be nice to hear from people that support OSAS to give a testimony to show what effect being saved has had on their ability to overcome sin, or if they really just believe they can do whatever they want and go to heaven.
 
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Marvin Knox

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I can see both sides of the argument. So it would be nice to hear from people that support OSAS to give a testimony to show what effect being saved has had on their ability to overcome sin, or if they really just believe they can do whatever they want and go to heaven.
For starters - no one, that I am aware of, who believes in eternal security holds that position in order to justify sin.

That is a red herring plain and simple.

People indwelled by the Spirit of God do not wish to sin. We do sometimes. Some of those time, sad to say, are purposeful sins. But no child of God desires to sin on an ongoing basis nor finds lasting pleasure therein.

But the idea that a person can be kept from sinning on occasion simply by threatening him with loss of salvation is absolutely wrong - both according to scripture and experience.

I received the Lord as a teen around a little campfire at a Baptist bible camp that I had been invited to. It was as real a conversion as any experienced by anyone who has ever received the Lord. I understood my sinfulness, God's righteousness, and that Jesus Christ was the way to salvation.

I continued for a couple of years as a believer. But I continued to give in to temptations that will remain unnamed.

I had no follow up teaching and I fell into the trap of believing that when I sinned willfully I was lost. I then repented with tears and confessions and got "saved" again. This went on for two years as my life became a constant and unrelenting misery.

I remember consciously walking away from that life in anger. I became a strong agnostic and an effective and open vocal antagonist of Christianity for some 16 years.

The Lord brought me back eventually through various means that will remain unnamed as well - except to say that I now believe that it was the Holy Spirit in me, wooing me back over many, many years even as I cursed God.

Don't tell me that threatening people with Hell fire will keep them from sin. Don't tell me that threatening people with Hell fire will keep people from leaving the Lord and cursing Him. Those things are simply not true. I am living proof.

That kind of false teaching cost me a great many years of wasted life and caused me to commit untold sins as a young man.

Upon "believing" again at the age of 30 after a series of miracles - I made it my absolute top priority before studying any other doctrines to fine out exactly how people get saved according to the scriptures and exactly how they stay saved according to the scriptues.

I found, quite simply and clearly, that the Word of God teaches salvation by grace and not of works of any kind.

I have sinned many times over the decades since coming back to the Lord. Confession and repentance have always been very painful.

But I have remained steadfast in my devotion to the Lord, correct doctrine, and a righteous life for some 40 years since He graciously brought me back to Himself (just as He promised in the scripture that He will always do for His children).

I know whom I have believed and I am persuades that He is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him against that day.

My faith is in his ability to do what He has promised to do.

My faith is not in my ability to do what I have promised to do.

I fight sin because I am saved. I do not fight sin because I hope to be saved if I manage to overcome it.

I am convinced that good men can doubt eternal security.

I am also convinced that there is a fine line between doubting ones security and preaching a doctrine of works salvation.

I fear that many here is this forum have crossed that line.

There is doubt in my mind that some here have ever received salvation by grace alone.

Others may have. But many here are still guilty of teaching false doctrine. They are in danger of a more strict accounting as a result, on the day they stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ.
 
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cuja1

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For starters - no one, that I am aware of, who believes in eternal security holds that position in order to justify sin.

That is a red herring plain and simple.

People indwelled by the Spirit of God do not wish to sin. We do sometimes. Some of those time, sad to say, are purposeful sins. But no child of God desires to sin on an ongoing basis nor finds lasting pleasure therein.

But the idea that a person can be kept from sinning on occasion simply by threatening him with loss of salvation is absolutely wrong - both according to scripture and experience.

I received the Lord as a teen around a little campfire at a Baptist bible camp that I had been invited to. It was as real a conversion as any experienced by anyone who has ever received the Lord. I understood my sinfulness, God's righteousness, and that Jesus Christ was the way to salvation.

I continued for a couple of years as a believer. But I continued to give in to temptations that will remain unnamed.

I had no follow up teaching and I fell into the trap of believing that when I sinned willfully I was lost. I then repented with tears and confessions and got "saved" again. This went on for two years as my life became a constant and unrelenting misery.

I remember consciously walking away from that life in anger. I became a strong agnostic and an effective and open vocal antagonist of Christianity for some 16 years.

The Lord brought me back eventually through various means that will remain unnamed as well - except to say that I now believe that it was the Holy Spirit in me, wooing me back over many, many years even as I cursed God.

Don't tell me that threatening people with Hell fire will keep them from sin. Don't tell me that threatening people with Hell fire will keep people from leaving the Lord and cursing Him. Those things are simply not true. I am living proof.

That kind of false teaching cost me a great many years of wasted life and caused me to commit untold sins as a young man.

Upon "believing" again at the age of 30 after a series of miracles - I made it my absolute top priority before studying any other doctrines to fine out exactly how people get saved according to the scriptures and exactly how they stay saved according to the scriptues.

I found, quite simply and clearly, that the Word of God teaches salvation by grace and not of works of any kind.

I have sinned many times over the decades since coming back to the Lord. Confession and repentance have always been very painful.

But I have remained steadfast in my devotion to the Lord, correct doctrine, and a righteous life for some 40 years since He graciously brought me back to Himself (just as He promised in the scripture that He will always do for His children).

I know whom I have believed and I am persuades that He is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him against that day.

My faith is in his ability to do what He has promised to do.

My faith is not in my ability to do what I have promised to do.

I am convinced that good men can doubt eternal security.

I am also convinced that there is a fine line between doubting ones security and preaching a doctrine of works salvation.

I fear that many here is this forum have crossed that line.

There is doubt in my mind that some here have ever received salvation by grace alone.

Others may have. But many here are still guilty of teaching false doctrine. They are in danger of a more strict accounting as a result, on the day they stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ.


Thank you for that testimony! That's how I feel. Telling me I'm going to hell has never inspired me to do God's will. It has only made me hate God and spend nights unable to sleep for fear of burning for eternity. Unfortunately that fear never produced any results except to make me more miserable than ever.
 
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ZacharyB

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Telling me I'm going to hell has never inspired me to do God's will. It has only made me hate God and spend nights unable to sleep for fear of burning for eternity. Unfortunately that fear never produced any results except to make me more miserable than ever.
Then you should tell Jesus, Paul, and the others ... that they were in error
by warning believers about the very real possibility of losing their salvation.
Eternal life is indeed for eternity ... for those who "endure to the end", and etc.
 
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Steeno7

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Then you should tell Jesus, Paul, and the others ... that they were in error
by warning believers about the very real possibility of losing their salvation.
Eternal life is indeed for eternity ... for those who "endure to the end", and etc.

LOL. And who are those who endure to the end? Those who have eternal life.

Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."
 
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cuja1

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Then you should tell Jesus, Paul, and the others ... that they were in error
by warning believers about the very real possibility of losing their salvation.
Eternal life is indeed for eternity ... for those who "endure to the end", and etc.

Do you have any verses that state directly that a person can lose their salvation or just verses that seem to imply it?
 
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ZacharyB

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LOL. And who are those who endure to the end? Those who have eternal life.
Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."
This serious matter is NOT a lot of laughs.
You just do not understand Paul's method of writing.
His dire warnings are mixed in with copious amounts of
edifications, exhortations, encouragements, etc.
Your verse above is just such a one.

The warnings are there, but so are the bold ones!
 
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Steeno7

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This serious matter is NOT a lot of laughs.
You just do not understand Paul's method of writing.
His dire warnings are mixed in with copious amounts of
edifications, exhortations, encouragements, etc.
Your verse above is just such a one.

The warnings are there, but so are the bold ones!

Yeah, I'm the one that doesn't understand. LOL.
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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Sanctification has a dual aspect in Scripture. We are sanctified by God and we are called to sanctify ourselves. God's work begins at salvation and continues till we are with him in glory. You could say he takes us out and leads us away by the guiding Holy Spirit.

We are also called to sanctify ourselves. You could say that is to come out and walk away.

We cannot do this on our own but we are enabled by the Holy Spirit as we submit to him.

In everything God initiates and man reciprocates. Nothing that man does without God amounts to anything in eternity.
 
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Thank you for that testimony! That's how I feel. Telling me I'm going to hell has never inspired me to do God's will. It has only made me hate God and spend nights unable to sleep for fear of burning for eternity. Unfortunately that fear never produced any results except to make me more miserable than ever.

I have talked with people both online and in person who believe they can sin and still be saved. They believe they can die in unrepentant sin like murder, hate, theft, adultery, etc. and make into God's Kingdom. But one has to confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 2:3-4). The Eternal Security position or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) teaching is dishonest in my opinion. On the one hand they will say you are not saved by living righteously and or doing anything apart from having a belief in Jesus Christ. But then when push comes to shove and they are backed into a corner about the many verses in the Bible that warn the believer in not sinning (at great peril to the salvation of their soul), they then begin to get all choked up and say they do not live exessively sinful lives. But see here is the thing. It only takes one sin to separate a person from God. In the Garden of Eden, Adam committed only one sin and it caused a separation between God and man whereby we would need a Savior. This Savior would save us in Justification (i.e. Thru regeneration of the Spirit and in canceling our past sins thru repentance and acceptance of Christ) and this Savior would save us (along with the Holy Spirit) to sanctify our lives with Christ doing the good work in us. This Savior would then save us in Glorification (Which would be Christ taking us home if we chose of our own free will to be Justified and Sanctified by the saving power of Jesus Christ). Yes, salvation is all God. But we must choose this day in whom we will serve and allow Him to abie in us (Whereby the good fruit of God will then flow thru us by the choices we make to obey His Word).


....
 
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Since we were having decent discussions on this on a thread that was closed, I wanted to continue the thought on salvation through sanctification.

John Robie posted this in the other thread - "I've answered your questions. I think you are trying to filter them through your presuppositions and they aren't making sense.

And salvation isn't through sanctification. Sanctification is part of salvation, as I stated in my first post."


Even though John doesn't believe salvation is through sanctification, I will provide a passage which actually states it does.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

I also provided a passage which states election is through sanctification.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

If anyone wants to continue our discussion, please feel free to do so.

Thank you EmSw. Great verses indeed.
I also appreciate the thread topic a lot, too.

God bless you brother for your efforts.


...
 
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ZacharyB

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Sanctification has a dual aspect in Scripture.
We are sanctified by God and we are called to sanctify ourselves.
Yes indeed, but to do this ... 2 major things are necessary, right?
1) the Holy Spirit must lead and guide and help us
2) we must exercise our free-wills and choose to co-operate with Him
I.E. We are in a 2-way covenant ...
we must co-operate with what God desires to do in us.

The Lord didn't create no mindless robots with no free-will here, hear?

-- positional sanctification is obvious for the believer
-- progressive sanctification is necessary for the believer
 
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Steeno7

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I have talked with people both online and in person who believe they can sin and still be saved. They believe they can die in unrepentant sin like murder, hate, theft, adultery, etc. and make into God's Kingdom. But one has to confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 2:3-4). The Eternal Security position or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) teaching is dishonest in my opinion. On the one hand they will say you are not saved by living righteously and or doing anything apart from having a belief in Jesus Christ. But then when push comes to shove and they are backed into a corner about the many verses in the Bible that warn the believer in not sinning (at great peril to the salvation of their soul), they then begin to get all choked up and say they do not live exessively sinful lives. But see here is the thing. It only takes one sin to separate a person from God. In the Garden of Eden, Adam committed only one sin and it caused a separation between God and man whereby we would need a Savior. This Savior would save us in Justification (i.e. Thru regeneration of the Spirit and in canceling our past sins thru repentance and acceptance of Christ) and this Savior would save us (along with the Holy Spirit) to sanctify our lives with Christ doing the good work in us. This Savior would then save us in Glorification (Which would be Christ taking us home if we chose of our own free will to be Justified and Sanctified by the saving power of Jesus Christ). Yes, salvation is all God. But we must choose this day in whom we will serve and allow Him to abie in us (Whereby the good fruit of God will then flow thru us by the choices we make to obey His Word).


....

Are you saved?
 
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Thank you for that testimony! That's how I feel. Telling me I'm going to hell has never inspired me to do God's will. It has only made me hate God and spend nights unable to sleep for fear of burning for eternity. Unfortunately that fear never produced any results except to make me more miserable than ever.

I received a tract (mini comic book) called "This Was Your Life" and I repented of my sins in fear of being thrown into the Lake of Fire.



This Was Your Life.

Job 28:28
"Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding."

On your point about Hell: Well, while Hell is a real place that has flames, it is not a place where people are actually tortured in any actual fire, though (Except for the demonic beings known as the beast and the false prophet at some point in the future). For if the richman was tortured in flames, I highly doubt he would have been able to carry on a normal conversation with anyone because he would have been screaming too loudly in pain by being burned. Nor wil the wicked burn for all eternity in the Lake of Fire, either. For Jesus said, "And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to DESTROY both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matthew 10:28 BLB) (Berean Literal Bible) (Gehenna is another name for "Lake of Fire"). The KJV translates Gehenna as the word "hell" because Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). Most of the popular churches like to teach Eternal Torment. But anyone who has done an intensive study on the subject will discover that Eternal Concious Torment (ECT) is unbiblical and it goes against the goodness of our God. God is not a monster whereby He needs to punish us waaaay beyond what the crime calls for. God is just and good and He is fair in His Judgments; And His Judgments are knowable and they can be explained easily. In other words, the wicked will be erased from existence in the Lake of Fire after the Judgment. For Scripture says, "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new." ... "And there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (See Revelation 21). For... "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Corinthians 15:26). This suggests that there are other enemies of God that will be destroyed if the last enemy (Which is death) is destroyed. As for passages in regards to torment being Eternal. I talk a lot about that here.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104767-what-your-view-hell-lake-fire-loving.html

Also, God's grace and mercy is there for us. Only sins that lead unto death can separate you from God (Like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.). These sins can easily be forgiven if one confesses them. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). For 1 John 1:9 is a promise that you can bank on. If one is honestly struggling with sin, they can put it behind them if they confess and forsake it by the power of God (i.e. by calling out to Him and keeping the faith that you will overcome it in time with God's help). Other sins like going a little over the speed limit or not taking out the trash last week, are not sins that lead unto spiritual death. They are hidden or secret faults (Psalm 19:12). For there are sins that do not lead unto spiritual death (See 1 John 5:16-18).

....
 
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Are you saved?

Yes. Are you saved?
Do you believe you can die unrepentant sin like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc. and still make it into Heaven?


...
 
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I ran across an article recently that talks about how the Bible uses salvation, redemption, forgiveness, sanctification, and justification in the past, present, and future tense. You might find it relevant:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PASTPRES.htm

I understand sanctification in the present tense as the process of being saved from sinning, from not doing good works, or from disobeying God's law.
 
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Then according to your theory, you are the sinless one. I'll be danged.

There are days I do not sin those types of sins that lead unto spiritual death (Like hate, lying, sexual immorality, etc.). But my life is not the standard. So whether I obey or not obey does not change what is in God's Word. 1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased (stopped) from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have ceased from sin. David says that he hid His Word (i.e. God's Word) in his heart so that he may not sin against the LORD. Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." If Jesus did not really mean what he said to this woman, then he would have been lying. In John 8, Jesus also said, "he that sins is a slave to sin." Jesus said this to the Pharisees and he said it in a negative way towards them. For Paul essentially says, any man who teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). If a person says Godliness is not necessary for salvation, then they are teaching another doctrine. For Jesus's very own words taught Godliness. For if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father is what Jesus said (Matthew 6:15). Do you believe you can not forgive die in such a state of unforgiveness and be forgiven? If so, then you would be going against the very words our Lord Jesus Christ.

...
 
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