Who is the church?

Lulav

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Are we grafted into Israel? Or is Israel grafted into the church? Or are they separate people with separate promises? Who's promises are who's?
The 'church' started a long time ago, longer than 2,000 years ago, even 3,000 years ago. The word comes from 'ekklesia' in Greek meaning an assembly or 'congregation' . And taken from the Hebrew 'kahal'. It basically means those who have been called out, separated out from the heathen. That was started in the desert when G-d took his people starting with Israel. Those who have joined themselves to this congregation are G-ds people.
 
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Yeshuas_My_Freedom

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Yes, I'd agree the Gentiles are grafted into the Tribes because the Messiah we hold in faith as prophesy fulfilled originated in Hebrew scriptures.
The faithful in total are the church. The universal church in Christ.
 
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zippy2

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The 'church' started a long time ago, longer than 2,000 years ago, even 3,000 years ago. The word comes from 'ekklesia' in Greek meaning an assembly or 'congregation' . And taken from the Hebrew 'kahal'. It basically means those who have been called out, separated out from the heathen. That was started in the desert when G-d took his people starting with Israel. Those who have joined themselves to this congregation are G-ds people.

Are those who are called the 'church' only those who keep Torah?
 
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Gregoire de Nazianze

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If we want to know who is the church, we must before adress this issue: what is the Bible? Indeed, what is the Bible? is it the Qur'an? No! The Bible is not a book, it is a library. So, what is the point which rely all these parts? Yes, this is not a point but a person: Jesus-Christ. But, how do we recognize his identity out of the Christian tradition? So, what are the texts ever persist in the church, in testimony for Christ? The canonical scriptures AND the unaltered Nicene Creed, according to Ac.5/33-42, Jd.3, Heb.13/8-9, Eph.4/4-7, and, in a second time, which are recognised by all the Christian churches, Lutheran, Roman, Anglican, Reformed, Coptic, Armenian or Orthodox. If this is true, I don't understand why the Christian world is so splited? Yes, the canonical books of the bible are sufficient for salvation, faith and morality. But, is it existing something like scriptures without faith (Rom.10/9-10)? So, this faith, which is it? This faith is the faith of the cat-holic church, not the roman church, but the Christian church, which exist since the last two thousand years ago. Then, we must admit that the unaltered Nicene creed is the word of God, ACCORDING TO the holy scriptures ALONE ( 2 Tim.3/16, 2 Pet.1/19-21, 1 Cor.12/3). In other terms, Scriptures ARE the word of the triune God, whom identity is definite by the unaltered Nicene creed, according to these scriptures ALONE. Also, when you study the Nicene creed, you may see that there is four points, which lead in controversy : 1- One God (Holy Trinity, Mt.28/19), 2-One Lord (Incarnation, Jn.1/14), 3-One baptism ( salvation by faith alone-Sola Fide, Mc.16/16) and, the least but not the less, 4- One church (Hermeneutic, Rom.12/6). As you can see, the problem with these points is that we must deal with the notion of unicity and multiplicity. So, the scriptural resolution of all these points constitute the common faith of the church. I think that the first point was resolved by the synods of Nicaea(325)and Constantinople(381), the second point, by the synod of Ephesus (431), Chalcedon(451), Constantinople.II (553) and III (681). The third point was resolved by the Unaltered Augsburg confession, in 1530, at the diet of Augsburg. Because, this text has showed the well understanding of the baptismal article of the creed. In fact, how can we be saved by ONE baptism for the forgiveness of SINS, if it isn't by the faith of this baptism? So, we must admit that we are saved only by the trinitarian faith or faith in Jesus-Christ, whom are the one true revelation of the Holy Trinity-Sola Fide. Then, the last point was concluded by the Wittenberg Concordia, between Luther and Bucer, in 1536, which Concordia is an official reception of the unaltered Augsburg confession, even signed by Calvin, in 1538, who NEVER revoke his signature. In consequence, if we have the faith, we have the church, according to Mt.18/19-20. So, the society of the believers, who confess this faith, is the Church, isn't it?
 
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Open Heart

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Are we grafted into Israel? Or is Israel grafted into the church? Or are they separate people with separate promises? Who's promises are who's?
You are speaking of the Olive Tree of the Oracles of God. At one time it was Israel. Now the Church has been grafted on. It doesn't make the Church Israel. Nor does it mean that Israel doesn't exist anymore or doesn't have it's covenantal promises -- it only means that they don't proclaim the gospel.

So what is the relationship of Israel to the Church? Think of each as a circle. There is a very small area where the circles overlap. Most of Israel has nothing to do with the Church, and most of the Church is Gentile. But there is that small overlapping area where you have believing Jews, who are part of both Israel AND the Church.

The promise to the Church is the spiritual promise to Abraham since we are Abraham's spiritual children, that his seed would benefit all mankind, meaning that Jesus would die for our sins and bring salvation to the world.

The promises to Israel are still in effect. "The gifts and callings are irrevocable." Romans 11:29 "the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises." Romans 9:4 These promises are:
  • That the Promised Land would eternally belong to them*, unconditionally.
  • That they could live on the Land if they obeyed the Commandments, otherwise they would be punished.
  • That they would be a light to the nations, unconditionally.
  • That Israel would increase in number, unconditionally.
  • That if Israel obeyed the commandments, the rains would fall in their seasons, IOW that Israel would prosper.
  • That HaShem would be Israel's God, unconditionally.
*I say they and them because I am speaking of all Israel, most of whom are not Christian. However, I could have just as easily said we and us, since I am of Israel as well as of the Church.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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yeshuaslavejeff

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Are those who are called the 'church' only those who keep Torah?
GOOD QUESTION.
Simple answer, hardly ever realized or seen.
In the world , what is called the 'church' doesn't matter, except to realize it is not what YHWH'S WORD says about ekklesia - it is totally different.

Ecclesia are those souls called, chosen, set apart, born again by YHWH ABBA ELOHIM in CHRIST JESUS MESSIAH SAVIOR KING HEALER FRIEND COMFORTER.
Everyone else is not Ecclesia. (see 1st JOHN, etc etc)
 
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Open Heart

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Some are. Some aren't.
Please explain the Christians that you believe are NOT grafted on.

.What about the Jewish Christians, such as Messianic Jews, or Jews who are believers in the regular Churches?

YHWH'S PROMISES are as YHWH made them. For ISRAEL alone,
for the ecclesia alone, and for both together, all exactly as YHWH is PLEASED to DO.
Can you please make two lists:
one of the promises to Israel
a second of the promises to the Church
Thanks.
 
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Ron Gurley

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The "CHURCH" ("The Living Church?") is the collective "Body" of BELIEVERS,
the members of the "Body of Christ"
who are permanently indwelt by
God the Holy Spirit at the time of their Salvation.
The "Head" and the "Corner Stone" is God the Son, the historical person of
Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ, The Messiah, The God-Man.He is the "Bridegroom".
Revelations 22: 17 The (God the Holy) Spirit and the "bride" (CHURCH) say, "Come "
Its "building blocks" are the "Grace through Faith" good news which guides the estranged to become a saved BODY + SOUL + SPIRIT.

Ephesians 4: 2-6; 1 Corinthians 1:10; Ephesians 1:22; Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 22:16; Psalm 118:22; Isaiah 28:16;
Matthew 21: 42-45

Revelation 21:9...PROPHECY for the FUTURE
“Come here, I will show you the "Bride" (CHURCH), the wife of the Lamb.” (Jesus the Divine Christ)

Matthew 25 (NASB)...The "Bridegroom" is Jesus...The virgins are the "CHURCH"...Parable of Ten Virgins
1 “Then the "kingdom of heaven" will be comparable to ten virgins,
who took their lamps and went out to meet the "Bridegroom".
13 Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.
( when Jesus comes back for His "CHURCH" )


Psalm 118:22
The stone (Jesus) which the builders (Israel) rejected has become the chief corner stone.(of the Church)

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
" Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, a costly cornerstone
for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

Matthew 21...
42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures,
'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?

43 "Therefore I say to you (Hebrew Nation) , the kingdom of God will be taken away from you
and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.
44 "And he who falls on (trips over) this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.
 
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PamCAID

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Who is the Church -- which Church?

Do you mean the church prophesied in the OT to happen, that Jesus preached and taught the disciples that began in Acts 2 OR the sealed and secure Body of Christ preached only by Paul after his revelation from Jesus?

Different entities!

http://www.churchageisdifferent.com/church-chart/
 

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Ron Gurley

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Different without a difference!

See post #11!

The birthday of the only one true "CHURCH" was at Pentecost, Acts 2.

Paul added clarifying theology in his letters about the "CHURCH".
 
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