How do we support Israel and not support violence?

Percivale · Oct 3, 2015

peepnklown said:
WOW. First, China is not an ally. Thus, we will have to leave them out of our discussion.
Second, the surrounding nations in the Middle East are not our allies as well.
We are talking about Israel.
It’s not about being perfect.
USS Liberty incident! Israeli armed forces killed 34 Americans and wounded 171.
Lavon Affair! Israeli military intelligence recruited Egyptian Jews to plant bombs inside American civilian targets!
They stole uranium from us! URANIUM. What do you think that is for?
They tried to blame America for attacks inside Iran. If successful would have caused a war which would have cost American lives!
They didn’t even give us the common courtesy of warning us about 9/11 which cost American lives.
Oh well, they are not perfect.
No! This is unacceptable.

USS Liberty incident was an accident. Probably every nation that's been in a modern war has attacked the wrong target at some time. Israel could have had no motive for doing it purposely.
Lavon affair was bad, but that was over 60 years ago, and I'm sure the CIA has done similar things.
In the sixties Israel was in great danger, so they'd naturally be desperate enough to look for any possible ways of defending themselves, so I don't blame them for wanting uranium, or blaming America for Iran attacks--Iran would be much less likely to attack the US for it than they would Israel.
Do you really think Israel knew about 9/11 ahead of time, if we didn't? Sure, their intel is good, but is it better than ours by that much?

peepnklown · Oct 3, 2015

Percivale said:
USS Liberty incident was an accident.

Let’s talk about the USS Liberty incident. Dean Rusk (US Secretary of State at the time of the incident) disagrees with you. Lieutenant Commander James Ennes who was on the USS Liberty during the attack disagrees with you. Joe Meadors (US Navy signalman) who was on the USS Liberty during the attack disagrees with you. A signed affidavit by Captain Ward Boston says Johnson (President) and McNamara told those heading the Navy’s inquiry to, “…conclude that the attack was a case of mistaken identity despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.” I could go on and on and on.

Israel had a motive. Israel used unmarked aircraft and intended to sink the USS Liberty in order to blame the attack on Egypt thus dragging the US into a war on Israel’s behalf.
They did the same thing during the Lavon Affair.
If they were our ally and only wanted to defend themselves then why didn’t they simply ask for our help?
If they only wanted to defend themselves why didn’t they ask for the uranium?
Did they need to steal it because they wanted to use it in another fake attack on the US? Maybe now having the power to kill millions of American’s on American soil?

Israel knew about 9/11. We found men (Israelis) setting up cameras by the Hudson River trained on the twin towers before the attack happened. After the attacks starting we have witnesses saying they were celebrating and high fiving during the attack. FBI comes to find out these men were a Mossad surveillance mission.

You need to open your eyes brother.

Percivale · Oct 10, 2015

peepnklown said:
Let’s talk about the USS Liberty incident. Dean Rusk (US Secretary of State at the time of the incident) disagrees with you. Lieutenant Commander James Ennes who was on the USS Liberty during the attack disagrees with you. Joe Meadors (US Navy signalman) who was on the USS Liberty during the attack disagrees with you. A signed affidavit by Captain Ward Boston says Johnson (President) and McNamara told those heading the Navy’s inquiry to, “…conclude that the attack was a case of mistaken identity despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.” I could go on and on and on.

Israel had a motive. Israel used unmarked aircraft and intended to sink the USS Liberty in order to blame the attack on Egypt thus dragging the US into a war on Israel’s behalf.
They did the same thing during the Lavon Affair.
If they were our ally and only wanted to defend themselves then why didn’t they simply ask for our help?
If they only wanted to defend themselves why didn’t they ask for the uranium?
Did they need to steal it because they wanted to use it in another fake attack on the US? Maybe now having the power to kill millions of American’s on American soil?

Israel knew about 9/11. We found men (Israelis) setting up cameras by the Hudson River trained on the twin towers before the attack happened. After the attacks starting we have witnesses saying they were celebrating and high fiving during the attack. FBI comes to find out these men were a Mossad surveillance mission.

You need to open your eyes brother.

I guess what these things have in common is Israel trying to get the US to fight the Arabs. There are, or at least were, some Israelis willing to use deceit and violence even against us to do so. Apparently they really want us for an ally but don't trust us enough to just ask. But regarding national policy the question is not whether they like us or are nice to us, but rather, do their national interests converge with ours? I believe they do in two important areas: We both want democracy and freedom--many Arab nations don't. And we have a common enemy--Islamic extremism, and are in a good position to cooperate against that enemy.
My question for you is, given the current state of things, should Israel exist? If not, what would you put in its place, and where else can the Jewish people go? We owe them something, since our ancestors have been persecuting theirs for a thousand years, simply because they wish to maintain their own culture, and are successful in business (and pretty much everything--envy has probably been the main reason for anti-semitism).

Crowns&Laurels · Oct 12, 2015

The support of Israel is out of two things: a common enemy and a historical fascination of Israel.

Especially the latter, as one sees more and more churches with Israeli banners acknowledging support. There's an unsurprising idea that Jews don't have to rely on Christ and that God is concerned with a piece of land.

But to be fair, events that happen in the holy lands tend to ripple throughout the world. It's been that way since the Dark Ages, and hasn't really changed.

peepnklown · Oct 12, 2015

Percivale said:
I guess what these things have in common is Israel trying to get the US to fight the Arabs. There are, or at least were, some Israelis willing to use deceit and violence even against us to do so. Apparently they really want us for an ally but don't trust us enough to just ask. But regarding national policy the question is not whether they like us or are nice to us, but rather, do their national interests converge with ours? I believe they do in two important areas: We both want democracy and freedom--many Arab nations don't. And we have a common enemy--Islamic extremism, and are in a good position to cooperate against that enemy.
My question for you is, given the current state of things, should Israel exist? If not, what would you put in its place, and where else can the Jewish people go? We owe them something, since our ancestors have been persecuting theirs for a thousand years, simply because they wish to maintain their own culture, and are successful in business (and pretty much everything--envy has probably been the main reason for anti-semitism).

I wish it was all about a few bad eggs. It’s simply not a problem of a few Israelis. The false-flag plans, attacks and spying came from the highest levels of the Israeli government, military and intelligence agencies. Israel does not act like an ally. At minimum Israel has truly threatened our national security and committed acts of war.

Let us look at common interest.
Are you talking about the interest of the American people and our country or the interest of the Federal government?
The US Federal government does not want democracy and freedom in the Middle East.
We removed a democratically elected Prime Minister in Iran. We did the same thing in Lebanon.
We supported authoritarian regimes in Iran, Iraq, Syria, etc.
Islamic Extremism was supported and funded by the US. If you want more details, let me know.

The American people owe the Jewish people, how so?
e cannot go back in time thus, Israel already exists.
The US needs to stop all support (secret or non-secret) to Israel and Islamic extreme regimes.
We need to allow the Middle East to regulate themselves. Only then will we see peace.

anna ~ grace · Feb 26, 2016

Brother ~ Here is how I see it. The modern day State of Israel is a man-made country with largely man-made rules which we as Christians have no obligation to "support". But it partially encompasses the Land that God gave to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob for a continuing inheritance, and the Land is full of precious Jewish, Muslim, and Christian souls who all need Messiah in their lives. I don't pray for the modern day State of Israel, nor do I support or fight against it. But I do pray for the people in that land to know and obey Messiah, put away their swords, love and esteem one another, and see one another as humans first, Jews and Arabs second. Such peace is impossible politically but possible spiritually. That's how I see it.

Shempster said:
If you watch only Fox news, they would have you believe that the Jews in Israel are humble, peaceful and only use force in self defense.

There is a ton of evidence that there is a huge amount of violence towards Palestinians and Muslims in general by the Israeli army.

We as Christians believe that we should support (or bless) Israel, but at the same time, we are compelled to live like Jesus and love all people...even our enemies.

So tell me: how do we support Israel and oppose the violence that is happening? Obviously, we are to pray for peace in Jerusalem, but I am looking at the bigger picture here.

timewerx · Feb 28, 2016

Shempster said:
We as Christians believe that we should support (or bless) Israel, but at the same time, we are compelled to live like Jesus and love all people...even our enemies.

So tell me: how do we support Israel and oppose the violence that is happening? Obviously, we are to pray for peace in Jerusalem, but I am looking at the bigger picture here.

Live for a long enough time in the Middle East disguised as an Asian laborer from a third world country if you can pull it off.

Then come back here and let us hear your opinion!

timewerx · Feb 28, 2016

peepnklown said:
I wish it was all about a few bad eggs. It’s simply not a problem of a few Israelis. The false-flag plans, attacks and spying came from the highest levels of the Israeli government, military and intelligence agencies. Israel does not act like an ally. At minimum Israel has truly threatened our national security and committed acts of war.

This is a close similarity to Hitler's tactics.

If anyone read Hitler's biography from mainstream sources (history books), you could tell as early 1933 that Hitler already knew the coming WW2 and he also knew that Germany would be destroyed in utter defeat! Hitler also knew that a new nation would rise out of the ashes of WW2 and it turned out to be Israel.

So either the Israelis copied Nazi methods (which USA also did under CIA) or Hitler was working under Israel all along and pulled off the greatest false flag ops in history which is WW2 which made the creation of the State of Israel possible.

peepnklown · Feb 28, 2016

timewerx said:
So either the Israelis copied Nazi methods (which USA also did under CIA) or Hitler was working under Israel all along and pulled off the greatest false flag ops in history which is WW2 which made the creation of the State of Israel possible.

It’s a huge subject. I don’t know if this subject would benefit this specific thread.
For example, Operation Paperclip was an OSS program to bring over Nazis to the United States. This included intelligence officers. These intelligence officers were later associated with the OSS’s successor, the CIA. Declassified records show Allen Dulles aggressively recruited Nazis.
Hitler couldn’t have been working for Israel since Israel (modern) was not established yet but, maybe you meant, Zionists?
It’s a deep, deep rabbit hole my friend and I think a whole new thread is needed.

Locutus · Feb 28, 2016

Albion said:
We never apply those standards to other countries, so why is Israel the particular target, even though we know for a fact that its very existence is more tenuous than almost any other country?

The virulent opposition to the survival of Israel, which masquerades as a concern for the Palestinians, has become a hallmark of the extreme Left which knows that the destruction of Israel would mean (in addition to a bloodbath akin to the Holocaust) its replacement by a dictatorship on the same soil. That tells us more about what's going on than the excesses of the Israeli military when attempting to suppress terrorism.

Nowhere near it. Those in the west (extreme left, according to you) who protest Israel do so because there is a double standard involved. It may be misguided in terms of long term strategies for peace in the region, but it's most assuredly a benevolent position.

Shempster · Feb 28, 2016

Gracia Singh said:
Brother ~ Here is how I see it. The modern day State of Israel is a man-made country with largely man-made rules which we as Christians have no obligation to "support". But it partially encompasses the Land that God gave to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob for a continuing inheritance, and the Land is full of precious Jewish, Muslim, and Christian souls who all need Messiah in their lives. I don't pray for the modern day State of Israel, nor do I support or fight against it. But I do pray for the people in that land to know and obey Messiah, put away their swords, love and esteem one another, and see one another as humans first, Jews and Arabs second. Such peace is impossible politically but possible spiritually. That's how I see it.

Thats a great way to look at it. The issue is so complicated. Much more than I had originally thought.

anna ~ grace · Feb 28, 2016

It is very complicated, man, more complicated than one might assume. Both sides tend to over play the victim card and minimize or lie about their atrocities. Neither side is exactly innocent.

Shempster said:
Thats a great way to look at it. The issue is so complicated. Much more than I had originally thought.

GrowingSmaller · Feb 29, 2016

Peace.

How do we support Israel and not support violence?

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