I just figured it out

A New Dawn

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You spoke of these as "baptisms", those were your words. As though the distinction is between "physical" or "water" baptism and "spiritual" baptism; and then spoke of the first as childbirth. Do you consider childbirth a baptism? That's the only way that this can make sense to me because your wording seems to me otherwise rather confused.



Ritual bathing was standard Jewish practice for a number of things, one of those things was conversion to Judaism. Both in the past and today when a person converts to Judaism they undergo a ritual washing (tevilah) in a mikveh. It was also used for ritual purification such as when a man had a "night time emission" or a woman after her menustration. Priests were required to ritually bathe to make themselves pure before performing their priestly duties in the Temple.

What John was doing in the wilderness was a kind of tevilah, John's message was that the Messiah was coming and so the people of Israel needed to turn to God in repentance, and he called them to this preparation and repentance though a ritual washing, but in the Jordan. To make themselves clean in preparation for Messiah's coming. That's what John was doing.

Christian Baptism is based on this, but the meaning of the ritual washing was no longer attached to ritual purification but attached to Jesus and what Jesus had done; they were to be washed in the name of--by the authority of--Jesus the Messiah. It was not, as John's baptism was, a washing of repentance in preparation for the coming of the Messiah, but a washing for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38) in the name and authority of Jesus the Messiah.

Baptism as the rite of conversion to Christianity is directly predicated on the Jewish tevilah as part of the process of conversion. But the meaning of Christian baptism is fundamentally different than both Jewish tevilah and John's tevilah/washing/baptism; the meaning being redefined in and by and on account of Jesus the Messiah; by which one is washed and enters into the covenant people of the Messiah--that is the Church. To which Paul will write, that we who were baptized were baptized into Christ's death, that we who were baptized into Christ are clothed with Christ, that we have received a spiritual circumcision in baptism, etc.

And so we see here in John's Gospel, Jesus speaking to Nicodemus, a rabbi, and Jesus speaks of being born of water and Spirit and Nicodemus should know what Jesus is talking about. Not childbirth, but what would have been readily and easily known by any practicing Jew, especially a rabbi. When one enters into the mikveh for tevilah for the purpose of conversion they are entering into the people of God's covenant and at least in some sense made members of the kingdom/nation of Israel (if this language is in error, I freely welcome our resident Jewish members to correct me).

For more information, try this article:

http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/1541/jewish/The-Mikvah.htm

-CryptoLutheran
You are free to believe what you wish, but Jesus clearly identified being born by water with being born of flesh. A concept known to Nicodemus, with or without the knowledge of ritual washings.

Thanks for the discussion.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Because in Matthew 28, Jesus commanded the disciples to baptize people -- there it is. They couldn't baptize them with the Holy Spirit, they could only water baptize. Priests and pastors can only water baptize. Infants are water baptized (in Catholicism); but they don't have a clue what it means, nor is it of there own will to receive it. This is why children should be older and understand who Jesus is, what it means -- at the age of accountability. It is a personal relationship between you and God, therefore a personal decision based on the knowledge of Jesus however basic or simplistic it may be. I believe a four year old can understand and perceive the Word of God on a basic level. But generally it is better to wait till they can tell you the story -- what they believe and some nail it. My daughter got baptized at about ten years old after a few years of children's church.

So Jesus instructs the disciples to baptize, so it must be "water baptism"; if this is the case are there any other mentions of this kind of baptism in Scripture? Were the three thousand in Acts who were baptized baptized according to the command of Christ or "spiritually" baptized?

How about Acts 19? What sort of baptism did the disciples of John receive after hearing what Paul told them?

In Rom. 6, baptized "into Christ" and "into His death" is spiritual, not physical. Water is symbolic. Now, this doesn't mean that a person can't receive the Holy Spirit at the time of water baptism or before it. Jesus was baptized and then the Holy Spirit came upon Him and the Father spoke. This was for our sake. Jesus was always filled with the Spirit -- He is God.
I was born again in 1991 but procrastinated a little with my water baptism, which happened the following year. Btw, it is a public testimony of obedience and your faith when you get up in front of hundreds and confess your faith and get water baptized.

I wasn't baptized until I was 17, though I had always been a believer. I was raised in the faith and so there simply had never been a time when I didn't believe. Though according to the Evangelical tradition I had been raised I prayed the "sinner's prayer" when I was three, almost four. Of course such tradition isn't biblical but is based upon 20th century innovations. But, again because of the tradition in which I was raised, did not receive baptism until I was 17.

I wouldn't say I wasn't saved until I was baptized, I was indeed saved because of the faith I had. But that doesn't change what Baptism is or what baptism signifies. My personal experience having grown up in a sacramentarian, credobaptist upbringing is an abnormality in Christianity.

What I have yet to understand is how you decide when a baptism mentioned in Scripture is ordinary Christian Baptism and when it is "spiritual" baptism. You say if it is "into Christ" or in Christ's name then it is "spiritual baptism", and when it is something the disciples are commanded to do it must therefore be "water baptism". Of course I have no idea how you arrived at this methodology and it still seems entirely arbitrary, but I would again want to look at other cases, such as in Acts 19--did these disciples of John receive "water baptism" or "spiritual baptism"?

"While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the interior regions and came to Ephesus, where he found some disciples. He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” They replied, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” Then he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They answered, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied— altogether there were about twelve of them."

The bold text, was this "water baptism" or "spiritual baptism"?

Further:

1) I have yet to see anyone explain how "water baptism" is a public testimony of faith as a biblical teaching. This is the claim I had been raised to believe until when really examining Scripture I discovered that I had to change my views to conform with Scripture on the issue of baptism. If you could do me a favor and provide Scripture which says that "water baptism" is for a public testimony you would do me a world of good--as so far I have never been able to find it in Scripture and nobody has ever been able to show me where this is found in Scripture.

2) You mention also now in this post the "age of accountability" this too is troublesome because, again, there's no biblical support for it. Indeed when we look at Scripture we find that infants and small children are included into the covenant community of God, for example circumcision as the sign and seal of God's covenant with Israel meant the circumcision of infants on their eighth day. So asserting that age is a barrier to inclusion into God's people would seem to necessitate some serious biblical support, some sort of significant theological support at least. Where does Scripture provide for an age of accountability? Or where does Scripture prohibit infants and young children from inclusion into the people of God?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ronald

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So Jesus instructs the disciples to baptize, so it must be "water baptism"; if this is the case are there any other mentions of this kind of baptism in Scripture? Were the three thousand in Acts who were baptized baptized according to the command of Christ or "spiritually" baptized?

>> Very good, you're getting it.

How about Acts 19? What sort of baptism did the disciples of John receive after hearing what Paul told them?

>> Paul asked them if they received the Holy Spirit and they didn't have a clue what that meant. Up to that point, they were baptized by water, (a baptism into repentance) but NOT into Jesus name or the Holy Spirit. So Paul laid His hands on them and they received the HOLY SPIRIT.

"While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the interior regions and came to Ephesus, where he found some disciples. He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” They replied, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” Then he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They answered, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied— altogether there were about twelve of them."

The bold text, was this "water baptism" or "spiritual baptism"?

>> No, they were already water baptized, this was a spiritual baptism into His name by the Holy Spirit. In my church, they laid hands on me and prayed for me to receive the Holy Spirit.

Further:

1) I have yet to see anyone explain how "water baptism" is a public testimony of faith as a biblical teaching. This is the claim I had been raised to believe until when really examining Scripture I discovered that I had to change my views to conform with Scripture on the issue of baptism. If you could do me a favor and provide Scripture which says that "water baptism" is for a public testimony you would do me a world of good--as so far I have never been able to find it in Scripture and nobody has ever been able to show me where this is found in Scripture.

>> Water baptism is done in public. This act of obedience is a testimony to our beliefs. We are commanded to do so and we do it. We are commanded to receive communion and we do it. We are commanded to confess our sins to others and we do it. We are commanded not to sin, to love one another and we try to do this, fail at times but try to live by it and follow Jesus --- all these things are a testimony to our faith.

2) You mention also now in this post the "age of accountability" this too is troublesome because, again, there's no biblical support for it. Indeed when we look at Scripture we find that infants and small children are included into the covenant
community of God, for example circumcision as the sign and seal of God's covenant with Israel meant the circumcision of infants on their eighth day. So asserting that age is a barrier to inclusion into God's people would seem to necessitate some serious biblical support, some sort of significant theological support at least. Where does Scripture provide for an age of accountability? Or where does Scripture prohibit infants and young children from inclusion into the people of God?

>> I did not say that infants or young children were not included into God's kingdom. I said that they should understand first the gospel before they can actually make a decision for Christ, get water baptized, at whatever age that may be. Kids know right from wrong at what age? Even some psychologists say kids don't know the difference between fantasy and reality until about 8 years old -- I don't know, it depends on the person and how they are brought up. If they are sat in front of the TV to watch cartoons and not nurtured properly, they may not be in touch with reality for awhile. Remember Jesus said I am the truth. Truth means what is real, reality. So the sooner you teach them what truth is, the sooner they will be in touch with it. I can't answer as to what children are saved if they die young or not, that's up to God. I would say for sure, God promises that "you and your household will be saved", refers to believers. I'm not sure if he saves all children? Sometimes sins are passed down to several generations, curses as well. ???
Circumcision was an Old Testament covenant law with the Jews. We are not under the Law, we are under Grace. We are justified by faith, not by the Law. (Read Romans 3-6, Galatians 5)
 
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ViaCrucis

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So if "baptism with the Spirit" is something the apostles could give, as in Acts 19, then why isn't Jesus' command to baptize in Matthew 28 "baptism with the Spirit"?

So why is Matthew 28 about "water baptism" but Acts 19 about "spirit baptism"?

Also, was Jesus instructing His followers to administer John's baptism in Matthew 28?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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A New Dawn

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So if "baptism with the Spirit" is something the apostles could give, as in Acts 19, then why isn't Jesus' command to baptize in Matthew 28 "baptism with the Spirit"?

So why is Matthew 28 about "water baptism" but Acts 19 about "spirit baptism"?

Also, was Jesus instructing His followers to administer John's baptism in Matthew 28?

-CryptoLutheran
The Holy Spirit hadn't been bestowed yet.
 
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Ronald

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So if "baptism with the Spirit" is something the apostles could give, as in Acts 19, then why isn't Jesus' command to baptize in Matthew 28 "baptism with the Spirit"?

So why is Matthew 28 about "water baptism" but Acts 19 about "spirit baptism"?

Also, was Jesus instructing His followers to administer John's baptism in Matthew 28?

-CryptoLutheran
The Holy Spirit baptizes a person with or without the administration of pastors or priests laying their hands on you. Water baptism is symbolic for the washing away of sins and this willingness to do this, is an act of repentance (turning to God). It is your turning to God that prepares you for receiving this spiritual transformation. I really don't know how many other ways I can say it. John baptized with water for the "remission of sins" and "into repentance" preparing the way for Jesus to baptize with the Holy Spirit.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Holy Spirit hadn't been bestowed yet.

So then what is the significance of Jesus' command to baptize given that Jesus commands this just prior to His ascension--which is also when, in Acts 1, Jesus instructs His followers to remain in Jerusalem until the coming of the Spirit?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Holy Spirit baptizes a person with or without the administration of pastors or priests laying their hands on you.

But if it can be administered in this way, then why isn't Jesus command to baptize this baptism, if "spiritual baptism" can be administered then certainly Matthew 28 can be about the instruction to administer this "spiritual baptism" as we see in Acts 19 via the laying on of hands.

I'm still seeing this distinction being made as entirely arbitrary.

Water baptism is symbolic for the washing away of sins and this willingness to do this, is an act of repentance (turning to God).

According to...? Where can I read about the meaning and significance of "water baptism" in the Bible? Where can I read, in Scripture, that "water baptism is symbolic for the washing away of sins"?

It is your turning to God that prepares you for receiving this spiritual transformation. I really don't know how many other ways I can say it.

And you can keep on saying the same things over and over--my issue still is that your views lack biblical foundation and lay outside the standards of normal Christian teaching--I am not seeing a biblical argument, nor a consistent hermeneutic with appropriate exegesis.

John baptized with water for the "remission of sins" and "into repentance" preparing the way for Jesus to baptize with the Holy Spirit.

And yet Christians didn't stop using water for baptism. Confusing what John was doing with what Christians were doing confuses and conflates these things. Further, John's baptism was not "for the remission of sins" that designation goes to Christian baptism--as in Acts 2:38--which in spite of comments to the contrary has no reason to be anything other than baptism. The baptism with the Holy Spirit, as per the passages I've offered already, is not about an individual spiritual transformation, but about the outward outpouring of the Spirit in real history (e.g. Pentecost and Cornelius' house) which is in keeping with the explicit statements in Scripture and adheres to the basic thesis and outline of the Acts of the Apostles.

I'm not seeing any statements or arguments that provide a counterargument to these points I made earlier. Just statements stating the standard American Evangelical credobaptist position without an underlying or consistent hermeneutic.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ronald

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But if it can be administered in this way, then why isn't Jesus command to baptize this baptism, if "spiritual baptism" can be administered then certainly Matthew 28 can be about the instruction to administer this "spiritual baptism" as we see in Acts 19 via the laying on of hands.

I'm still seeing this distinction being made as entirely arbitrary.



According to...? Where can I read about the meaning and significance of "water baptism" in the Bible? Where can I read, in Scripture, that "water baptism is symbolic for the washing away of sins"?



And you can keep on saying the same things over and over--my issue still is that your views lack biblical foundation and lay outside the standards of normal Christian teaching--I am not seeing a biblical argument, nor a consistent hermeneutic with appropriate exegesis.



And yet Christians didn't stop using water for baptism. Confusing what John was doing with what Christians were doing confuses and conflates these things. Further, John's baptism was not "for the remission of sins" that designation goes to Christian baptism--as in Acts 2:38--which in spite of comments to the contrary has no reason to be anything other than baptism.
The baptism with the Holy Spirit, as per the passages I've offered already, is not about an individual spiritual transformation
, but about the outward outpouring of the Spirit in real history (e.g. Pentecost and Cornelius' house) which is in keeping with the explicit statements in Scripture and adheres to the basic thesis and outline of the Acts of the Apostles.



I'm not seeing any statements or arguments that provide a counterargument to these points I made earlier. Just statements stating the standard American Evangelical credobaptist position without an underlying or consistent hermeneutic.

-CryptoLutheran

***Your statement above in underlined in bold is WRONG. Everything I told you is based on scripture -- and btw, I wrote a book on basic Christianity -- that doesn't prove me right, just that I backed up what I commented with 570 verses from seven different translations. You are not discerning it correctly. Being baptized by the Holy Spirit is the spiritual transformation of being "born again"!
The Bible specifically differentiates between John's baptism or water and Jesus baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 3:11)
Don't forget that Jesus ministry ( all 3 1/2 years of educating the disciples) was a preparation for His New Covenant or Grace. Water baptism prepares a person, turns him towards God. But Jesus had to go away first (John 16:7, 8)
So Jesus prepared them to receive the Holy Spirit. (John 14:16, 17)
He will teach you (John 14:26; 1 Cor.2:13)
He will testify of Jesus (John 15:26)
We receive power to witness and preach(Acts 1:8; Rom.15:19)
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13)
The Love of God is poured out in our hearts (Rom. 5:5)
Fruit of the Spirit begins to grow in us ((Gal. 5:22; John 15:5; Matt. 7:17)
The Spirit helps us pray and intercedes for us (Rom. 8:26, 27)
He loves us (Rom. 15:30)
He fellowships with us (Phil. 2:1)
Gives us joy (1 Thes. 1:6)
He bears witness to our spirit (Rom. 8:16)
He strengthens us (Eph. 3:16)
He sanctifies us (1 Pet. 1:2, 3)
Faith comes by hearing the word of God and then somewhere along that process you believe. It is not water baptism that makes you believe or enables you to believe or triggers the Holy Spirit to come down upon you ... "OK, this one has been water baptized, come on down ..."
This all happens in a process whereby God draws a person to himself (John 6:44), lifts the veil of blindness and then they see. In a sense, Jesus stands knocking on the door and they finally open it and He comes in.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves ..." Certainly not by water baptism.
We are the Temple of the Holy Spirit, who dwells in us! His power doesn't just come upon us occasionally to do His will, HE LIVES IN US AND ONCE HE TAKES UP RESIDENCE IN YOU, YOU HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN OF THE SPIRIT!
(1 Cor. 3:16, 17; Eph.2:19-22; Rom.8:9-11)

"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'" John 3:3

My question to you is: Are you born again? You should respond immediately and say, Yes I am. If you don't know that you are, you have been taught wrong, maybe in a church that is half dead, not growing, etc. Some churches are dead, no spiritual life, no growth. Twenty years ago had the same amount of people. Chuck Smith started Calvary Chapel (a spiritually alive church), 40 years ago and today, their are 2000 mega churches from that planted seed. I've been in dead Baptist churches. Maybe you need to change, maybe you've been taught in a church that is not spiritually alive, many people have. This stuff is basic. You are struggling to understand basically Christian spirituality.
Basically, you have a spirit -- it's either empty or God lives in it -- one or the other. I rest my case.
 
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com7fy8

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i just figured out as to why critics who believe the bible to be inerrant attack the Book of Mormon. They think that we believe the Book of Mormon to be inerrant.

We don't think the Book of Mormon is without error.

We focus of what the true intent now suppose to get across to us
Well, if we focus on what we can understand is the "true intent" . . . we are not perfect in our ability to understand God's purpose. There are cases, in the Bible, where people were even told what would happen, but they could not understand until God brought it to pass.

Also . . . how about something like Colossians 3:15 ? >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

To me, this means that every person is called to submit to how our Father personally rules each of us in our "hearts" with His own peace. And His peace is harmony of how He personally in His own power of peace has us become in our character . . . in our "hearts" . . . and how He has us relating with Him and one another Christians and reaching to ones who do not know God in His love.

We are "in one body" "called" to this; so this is part of our basic Christian calling; so how come this basic calling is not preached regularly in a number of church services?? How our Father will rule each of us will be inerrant, I would say . . . how He rules our hearts and our intentions and thinking.

So, how much do you hear about this, in your Mormon preaching and teaching?

I admit . . . in a "number" of Jesus Bible places I have not heard this, nor in a number of mainstream institutional hierarchical churches. But it is in the Bible, showing what is in our basic calling "in one body" >

May be you are being attacked because ones would rather be busy with attacking you, instead of dealing with the correction they themselves need > Hebrews 12:4-11. I have done this; so I need to speak for myself.

we are taught that even though it was translated through the gift and power of God man still can screw it up
But how our Father personally rules us in His peace will be inerrant, don't you think?

The Book of Mormon is as fictional as the bible
Well, if you think this, you will find that pretty much any basic Jesus Bible person will not agree with you. However, we need to submit to God for how He has us living His word, and not only stay busy with ideas and beliefs. And I find that some number of Bible claiming people are not into submitting to our Father for how He guides us "continually" (Isaiah 58:11); but ones essentially worship their own wills, and even suppose that God is just standing by for them to pray to Him if they get stuck in something.

But when they get into some quicksand of some emotional trouble and torment, they are not able to submit to Him because they have been investing in themselves being able to do things. So, off they scramble to people and pleasures to try to feel some relief.

We are born of water and spirit at child birth. When we join Christ church we are baptized of water and spirit and then given the Holy Ghost.
Well, there are Christian groups who believe that Jesus means physical water. And ones of these are arguing about when and how one needs to have a meeting with water.

I offer that Jesus used illustrations of this life to help us see the invisible things of God's kingdom. Elsewhere, He more clearly uses water to mean not a tub or down-sprinkle of water, but He means the Holy Spirit > John 7:37-38. And we have "washing of water by the word" > Ephesians 5:22-28 > but I have yet to know of anyone who blenderizes pages of the Bible in water and then washes his wife with it :)

And Jesus uses the word "baptism" for other than what involves water >

Matthew 20:22-23, Mark 10:38-39, Luke 12:50.

But there are people who want to claim they "own" baptism and so everyone has to join their group. Ones will even claim their group goes back to Jesus. But Jesus "might" not mean what they are saying, plus right from Jesus there have been people who have misunderstood Him and have counterfeited things, on purpose or unknowingly.

So, I would say I need to be most concerned about if I myself could be the one who is errant or not.
 
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ViaCrucis

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***Your statement above in underlined in bold is WRONG. Everything I told you is based on scripture -- and btw, I wrote a book on basic Christianity -- that doesn't prove me right, just that I backed up what I commented with 570 verses from seven different translations. You are not discerning it correctly. Being baptized by the Holy Spirit is the spiritual transformation of being "born again"!

Except that you haven't demonstrated your claim, made in bold here, with Scripture. You have not presented Scripture which says that the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" refers to "the spiritual transformation of being born again".

Because the only places Scripture mentions "baptism with the Holy Spirit" it is in connection to what happened on Pentecost, and by extension what happened at Cornelius' house. There is nothing in Scripture which connects this baptism with the Holy Spirit with a "spiritual transformation" or being "born again". That's simply not in the text.

The Bible specifically differentiates between John's baptism or water and Jesus baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 3:11)

Yes, yes it does. John's baptism was to prepare people for the coming of the Messiah. John says that the One who comes after him will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire, which Jesus then explicitly states is what will happen to His followers "a few days from now" in Acts ch. 1

Don't forget that Jesus ministry ( all 3 1/2 years of educating the disciples) was a preparation for His New Covenant or Grace. Water baptism prepares a person, turns him towards God. But Jesus had to go away first (John 16:7, 8)

It seems you are conflating "water baptism" with John's baptism, as though they are always the same thing. But John's baptism had a clear purpose--preparation for the coming of the Messiah. Any "water baptism" done in the Church clearly can't be what John was doing in the wilderness. Jesus--whom we confess to be the Christ--has come.

So Jesus prepared them to receive the Holy Spirit. (John 14:16, 17)
He will teach you (John 14:26; 1 Cor.2:13)
He will testify of Jesus (John 15:26)
We receive power to witness and preach(Acts 1:8; Rom.15:19)
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13)
The Love of God is poured out in our hearts (Rom. 5:5)
Fruit of the Spirit begins to grow in us ((Gal. 5:22; John 15:5; Matt. 7:17)
The Spirit helps us pray and intercedes for us (Rom. 8:26, 27)
He loves us (Rom. 15:30)
He fellowships with us (Phil. 2:1)
Gives us joy (1 Thes. 1:6)
He bears witness to our spirit (Rom. 8:16)
He strengthens us (Eph. 3:16)
He sanctifies us (1 Pet. 1:2, 3)

All of which is true--but none of those speak of "baptism with the Holy Spirit"; but speak of the Spirit's work in us.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God and then somewhere along that process you believe. It is not water baptism that makes you believe or enables you to believe or triggers the Holy Spirit to come down upon you ... "OK, this one has been water baptized, come on down ..."

And yet we read in Acts 2:38, "Repent and be baptized all of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".

This all happens in a process whereby God draws a person to himself (John 6:44), lifts the veil of blindness and then they see. In a sense, Jesus stands knocking on the door and they finally open it and He comes in.

Correct about God drawing people to Himself; but your use of Revelation 3:20 is errant--Jesus stands at the door knocking is used as a metaphor toward the church in Laodicea. Because their love had grown cold, and so forth.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves ..." Certainly not by water baptism.
We are the Temple of the Holy Spirit, who dwells in us! His power doesn't just come upon us occasionally to do His will, HE LIVES IN US AND ONCE HE TAKES UP RESIDENCE IN YOU, YOU HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN OF THE SPIRIT!
(1 Cor. 3:16, 17; Eph.2:19-22; Rom.8:9-11)

Yes, these things are true--because we have been regenerated in Christ, through the waters of Baptism by which we are united to His death (Romans 6:3-11), clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27), washed with water by the word (Ephesians 5:26), etc. Because having been joined to Christ we have become members of His Body (1 Corinthians 12:12-31) and share in all these things together. For we are new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17-18)
"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'" John 3:3

My question to you is: Are you born again? You should respond immediately and say, Yes I am.

I understand that from here on out it's intended to be patronizing, but I'll bite. Yes I am.

baptismus sum
.

If you don't know that you are, you have been taught wrong, maybe in a church that is half dead, not growing, etc. Some churches are dead, no spiritual life, no growth. Twenty years ago had the same amount of people. Chuck Smith started Calvary Chapel (a spiritually alive church), 40 years ago and today, their are 2000 mega churches from that planted seed. I've been in dead Baptist churches. Maybe you need to change, maybe you've been taught in a church that is not spiritually alive, many people have. This stuff is basic. You are struggling to understand basically Christian spirituality.
Basically, you have a spirit -- it's either empty or God lives in it -- one or the other. I rest my case.

No worries, the same Spirit who came down on Pentecost two thousand years ago is still quite present in the Church, not having left us.


-CryptoLutheran
 
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fatboys

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Wow. I have learned a lot from you two. You have used the same scriptures I would have used to support my belief.
We believe that baptism by immersion is essential for every person who has or ever will live on this earth. It is so important that Jesus himself was baptized. Baptism is unto repentance. When we accept Jesus as our Savoir we are committed to that belief. At baptism we make promises to God. First is that we take upon ourselves the name Christ. Second is that we promise to always obey his laws. Third is we promise to always remember him. When we do this we become part of the body of his disciples. We are a member of the body of Christ. One of his saints. After we have become a member we have the right to receive a spiritual gift. A gift that can guide and direct us. It helps in revealing truth to us. It can comfort us. Sort of like a mother can comfort us when we were young. It is the gift of the Holy Ghost. Although the Holy Ghost has always been accessible to mankind, the gift of the Holy Ghost came at the day of Pentecost or the out pouring of the spirit. This when the gift of the Holy Ghost was available to man by those holding the priesthood authority of God to give this authority. These promises and gifts help prepare us for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. When we when receive a baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost we are then truly converted to the gospel and Jesus as our redeemer. We are then born again.
 
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Ronald

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Except that you haven't demonstrated your claim, made in bold here, with Scripture. You have not presented Scripture which says that the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" refers to "the spiritual transformation of being born again".

Because the only places Scripture mentions "baptism with the Holy Spirit" it is in connection to what happened on Pentecost, and by extension what happened at Cornelius' house. There is nothing in Scripture which connects this baptism with the Holy Spirit with a "spiritual transformation" or being "born again". That's simply not in the text.



Yes, yes it does. John's baptism was to prepare people for the coming of the Messiah. John says that the One who comes after him will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire, which Jesus then explicitly states is what will happen to His followers "a few days from now" in Acts ch. 1



It seems you are conflating "water baptism" with John's baptism, as though they are always the same thing. But John's baptism had a clear purpose--preparation for the coming of the Messiah. Any "water baptism" done in the Church clearly can't be what John was doing in the wilderness. Jesus--whom we confess to be the Christ--has come.



All of which is true--but none of those speak of "baptism with the Holy Spirit"; but speak of the Spirit's work in us.



And yet we read in Acts 2:38, "Repent and be baptized all of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".



Correct about God drawing people to Himself; but your use of Revelation 3:20 is errant--Jesus stands at the door knocking is used as a metaphor toward the church in Laodicea. Because their love had grown cold, and so forth.



Yes, these things are true--because we have been regenerated in Christ, through the waters of Baptism by which we are united to His death (Romans 6:3-11), clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27), washed with water by the word (Ephesians 5:26), etc. Because having been joined to Christ we have become members of His Body (1 Corinthians 12:12-31) and share in all these things together. For we are new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17-18)


I understand that from here on out it's intended to be patronizing, but I'll bite. Yes I am.

baptismus sum
.



No worries, the same Spirit who came down on Pentecost two thousand years ago is still quite present in the Church, not having left us.


-CryptoLutheran

Yes I have, all those scriptures about the Holy Spirit can only be experienced if you have been baptized by the Holy Spirit. You are "IN CHRIST", aren't you? Is the Holy Spirit living and working in you? That means you have been immersed into Christ spiritually just like a person is immersed into water symbolically. You would have absolutely no communion with God otherwise! You would not be able to discern scriptures. Communication with God would be void. Prayers would go out void. You would have no relationship with Him IF YOU WEREN'T BORN AGAIN. You mentioned the word "regenerated" above. What do you think that is????????????????
You accept that you've been born again but not baptized by the Holy Spirit? You are confused because this is exactly what being born again means, a new spirit, a communion with God Who now dwells in you. But according to you, no one else has ever been baptized by the Holy Spirit accept those present at Pentecost! LOL! Well, that's that. You either are in denial maybe because you've heard some negative criticism in your beloved church or from your pastor towards those crazy apostolic churches where they speak in tongues and believe in spiritual gifts and raise their hands ... those who claim you must be baptized by the Holy Spirit or else. ???
I guess it's OK to think that you haven't been baptized by the Holy Spirit, but actually have been. That would just mean you are confused about the concept. God will sort it out for you.
 
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com7fy8

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We believe that baptism by immersion is essential for every person who has or ever will live on this earth. It is so important that Jesus himself was baptized.
But Jesus already has been God's own Son, before He got baptized. And Jesus did it in order to "fulfill all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15) > He was fulfilling all that He already did have. So, if we are truly following Jesus by being immersed, we are fulfilling all we already have.

Baptism is unto repentance.
You can be baptized "unto" what you are seeking to get, or "unto" what you already do have or already have done.

In Mark it says John preached "a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" > Mark 1:4. Repentance which is the work of God (Titus 3:4-7) is the baptism which changes a person so one's sin's are remitted because the person has changed from being a sinner to being a child of God (Acts 26:18) who can not be charged with what a "dead" sinner did. We have been "baptized into His death" (Romans 6:3), by being made new in Jesus.

So, we were not baptized into water, but "into His death" . . . immersed into the death of Jesus. And the death of Jesus came before He went into the grave; so the true baptism is before any water immersion which is supposed to represent being buried.

When we accept Jesus as our Savoir we are committed to that belief.
If you mean being committed to belief in outward water immersion, I submit that we need to become immersed in how God's love has us becoming and living.

At baptism we make promises to God.
What about the promises God has made? And how He is able to fulfill His promises is more and better than how we can understand His promises, never mind do all He means. We need how God personally with each of us does all He means, better than how and what we can promise and get ourselves to do >

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
. And lean not on your own understanding."
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .(Proverbs 3:5)

We can see what happened with Peter promising to Jesus.

We need to learn and discover all that Jesus has and desires to share with us, and how He has us learning to live >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

Jesus promises that if we learn how to obey Him, we will have "rest for your souls."

We are a member of the body of Christ.

This when the gift of the Holy Ghost was available to man by those holding the priesthood authority of God to give this authority.
Here we get into an "interesting" issue of who is "holding the priesthood authority". There are groups and individuals who say they have or are the authorized ones, and no one else is. In any case, our Apostle Paul is clear about who is qualified just to be considered to be trusted to "take care of the church of God" > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. To me, it appears he must be a family man who is "the husband of one wife" and "blameless" the way God's love cures our nature to become "blameless" (1 John 4:17), and he with his wife have been proven in bringing up their own children well . . . so now they can minister this to others, so others can become blameless in God's love and do well in marriage and caring for children, or do well as celibates who can be helped by the couple to get real with God and also become blameless in how they love any and all people.

These promises and gifts help prepare us for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.
It looks like you have some number of "steps" > I know I could be totally mixed up about what you mean >

1. repenting first so you trust in Jesus?

2. promises made before being baptized

3. immersion in physical water

4. now you are a member of Christ?

5. receive the Holy Spirit to comfort and guide us

6. baptism of fire by the Holy Spirit

7. and then, after all these steps, you are born again??

We are then born again.
It seems like you are saying this.

I offer > repentance is the work of God, and in repenting we are turned "from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God," as Jesus says to Paul in Acts 26:18. Right then is already when we are in Jesus and members of Jesus with one another. Already, God is doing what He has promised, not limited to what we can understand and promise!!!

And the Holy Spirit is in us, working in us so we repent. So - - - already, in repenting, we are being filled by the Holy Spirit to repent > Titus 3:4-7 > and God in our repenting made us alive in His love > Ephesians 1:12, Ephesians 2:1. And so, when we were baptized into the death of Jesus, in repenting, we already started being with Jesus > "one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17). And so, Jesus was in us, right from repentance, and Jesus has the Holy Spirit. But then Jesus grows in a person (Galatians 4:19), so the person becomes more and more full of the Holy Spirit because of Jesus growing in us and how He is full of the Holy Spirit. So, it is not about steps, but growing in Christ and His love.
 
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Jane_Doe

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But Jesus already has been God's own Son, before He got baptized.

Mormons agree with this statement.

A point of difference between Mormonism and mainstream Christendom is, that Mormons also believe that we are all children of God before baptism (though obviously not THE SON of God). Baptism is not a matter of adoption, but rather the prodigal child returning to the Father.

Christ obviously didn't have any returning to do (cause he never left), but still was baptized and pledged Himself to the Father and righteousness. Part of the reason He did this, is because He is the Great Exemplar: showing us the path we are to walk.


1. repenting first so you trust in Jesus?

2. promises made before being baptized

3. immersion in physical water

4. now you are a member of Christ?

5. receive the Holy Spirit to comfort and guide us

6. baptism of fire by the Holy Spirit

7. and then, after all these steps, you are born again??

It seems like you are saying this.

Pretty much.

From the LDS Articles of Faith: "The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost."

This is the process of being Born Again in Christ. Each step flow naturally out of the others: if you have faith in Christ, then you will obviously want to change your heart and repent. If you change your old ways, you'll want to take on His ways and His name (i.e. baptism). Once one is baptized and taken on His name, then one will want to be filled with His Spirit and testify of Him.
 
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