Continuing Revelation

smaneck said:

And so was Baha'u'llah.

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You mean when Mirza Husayn Ali claimed to be the "glory of God" whereas the Bible clearly states that this would not be possible?

This thread was originally started to explore the idea and technology of obtaining personal revelation from God, individually and organizationally, in our own day.

I am still rather stunned that this group of thinkers has not really addressed the whys and hows of personal communication with the Divine. We all believe in it, to some degree. Pawnraider probably believes that it ended 2,000 years ago. Smaneck perhaps believes it ended with Baha'u'llah...? Muslims seem to believe that it ended with Muhammad, about 1600 years ago. The Jews seem to believe it ended with Malachi, or somewhere in that period 2,500 years ago.


One of the key questions, however - and it contains the element of faith - is: what does it mean to pray in the name of the Lord?

It is possible to take the name of the Lord in vain in our prayers. James warns us against praying in lust. Such a prayer is not in the name of Jesus Christ, regardless of how many times one vainly says "in the name of Jesus Christ."

I suggest that this issue is fruitfully addressed by first looking up the words name and in in a good college dictionary, and then thoughtfully, prayerfully applying those definitions to the phrase "in the name of the Lord."

jackcv said:

Pawnraider probably believes that it ended 2,000 years ago. Smaneck perhaps believes it ended with Baha'u'llah...?

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Jack,
Actually Baha'is believe that in no less than a thousand years there will be another Manifestation and the the House of Justice in the meantime has guidance..

"This institution is under the protecting power of Bahá'u'lláh Himself. A universal or international House of Justice shall also be organized."

~ Abdu'l-Baha

Baha'is believe that God will never leave us alone without Divine Guidance!

smaneck said:

As the one who started this thread, that isn't exactly what I had in mind. I was talking about the possibility of continuing revelation coming from God, not the how we go about obtaining it. I see it as something which God does, not something we should necessarily seek out.

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I stand corrected, Smaneck.

And astounded. Whether we look at Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, or Sikhism (at least), we see prayerful covenant making and personal revelation as seminal, foundational. Certainly the Christian and Muslim faiths stress prayers of thanksgiving, praise, and requests for grace - Divine help or assistance in doing what God wants us to do.

Again, see James 1:5. Hebrews 13:5. Matthew 7:7-10. Deut 31:8. Isa 42:14-16. The essential components of fruitful prayer are nowhere better laid out than in Moroni 10:4-5, in the Book of Mormon, and the commandment to pray for guidance nowhere better than 2 Nephi 32:8-9.

How do you propose a human being is to determine the truth of any issue save by careful thought confirmed by prayerful listening for the still, small voice of truth?

Can a man really consider himself mature and reliable if he ignores the invitation of the Supreme Being to receive wisdom from Him directly. Is such an adult considered spiritually mature in the Baha'i faith?

cloudyday2 said:

There is a mental illness called "delusional disorder". This is related to schizophrenia except that the hallucinations are less significant than the delusional beliefs. Unlike people with schizophrenia, people with delusional disorder are completely sane and functional in all areas except for the delusional belief. Often spouses are the only people who realize there is a problem. Even psychotherapists are often unable to diagnose the illness, because these people seem so rational. In many cases the psychotherapists are persuaded that the spouse has the problem instead of the person with delusional disorder.

One common form of delusional disorder is "grandiose type" (previously called "messiah type" until this was renamed to avoid offending religious people)

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the only diagnosis that can be deemed valid of delusional disorder is if the psychiatrist is NOT an atheist . ALL atheists consider all believers to be under a delusion . the problem is most psychiatrists are atheists so therefore they should not be able to make such spiritual related diagnosis' only psychiatrists who believe in God are capable of diagnosing a religious person correctly as mentally ill in some way.

cloudyday2 said:

Why not look at all the forms of revelation that you listed as ideas rather than commandments? The idea should be evaluated through reasoning, consulting friends, etc. A woman with delusional disorder told me that she tries to ask another person's opinion before reacting to anything. She gave the example of seeing a building on fire, but due to her illness she wanted to be sure that it wasn't a hallucination before calling 911.

So if the voice of Baal tells you to buy stock in some company, then do some research, talk to friends, and make a wise decision.

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I may have responded to this post previously, Cloudyday2, but you make a good point in your last paragraph.

However, why would one explain away revelation as "just ideas"? If one's intention was to insult the Almighty, that would be a good way to do it.

When one finds the still, small inner voice that tells the truth, research and due diligence are still required. Certainly a seminal truth to ask then is whether God exists, what is God's nature, and how can one best assist God. I have had flashes of pure intelligence that were clearly above my own thinking. I know very, very intelligent, practical, accomplished men and women in many professions who are likewise certain that they have been guided from Above, and who have carefully, humbly mastered the art and science of counselling with the Holy Spirit. They know the voice of God, because they have studied His word, found in Him a being of perfect love, truth and power, and they have consecrated themselves as He has consecrated Himself.

Do you really love the idea of predatory, random evolution more than the idea that there is a God who is Perfect love, truth and power - the one that the scriptures of all of the great world religions give us glimpses of? If so, by all means stick with it. If not, try looking for what you really love.

Or do you have a 3rd option?

cloudyday2 said:

There is also the problem of short-term and long-term returns. Atheism might seem to make people better members of society than Christianity, but Christianity claims greater returns in the hereafter.

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Some of my best friends claim to be atheists and are wonderful, intelligent, caring individuals. The great world religions, though, produce far more, and percentage-wise "better" people than any agnostic or atheistic belief systems anywhere.
My first wife of 26 years was Japanese-Japanese. She would have argued effectively against your characterization of Japan as atheist. Of course, the world today has an increasingly visible atheist media and minority, who are riding on the backs of generations of religious forebears who built the prosperity that we all have enjoyed over the past few hundred years.
Re-lig-ion means re-connect-ion. As they say in the US, E pluribus unum. Anything else is a liability to the individual and society.

jenny1972 said:

the only diagnosis that can be deemed valid of delusional disorder is if the psychiatrist is NOT an atheist .

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I'm not sure of this and suspect your statement may be an exaggeration...Check a definition of "delusional disorders"...such as the following:

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/delusional-disorder-symptoms/

whether or not a psychiatrist believes in God the definition seems pretty fair and impartial to me...

From my perspective, there will be a miracle of Quran manifested to a very high degree higher then ever before, when Imam Mahdi comes and unravels it's wonders to humanity.

There is a reason why God protected the Quran, and put the family of Mohammad and their leadership hidden in plain site there, so the sincere would see them there and those who belittle God's will and the path of submission to Him may turn away from it be they many, and be the sincere a few.

There are some hidden treasures, there is some majestic wonders, and the relationship between Suratal Fatiha and rest of Quran, that is gloriously subtle yet manifest when reflected with a heart searching the truth, and there is a reason it's been emphasized to be the 7 mathani (the 7 counter parts to the Quran).

That said, there is wisdom in sealing the revelation, and part of the wisdom is the Mahdi who is the lasting remaining one of the family of Mohammad, and the inheritor of Adam, Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, Isa, and Mohammad, and how he will manifest the wonders of Quran and bring the knowledge to a new height.

jackcv said:

Whether we look at Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, or Sikhism (at least), we see prayerful covenant making and personal revelation as seminal, foundational.

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Actually this statement is close to the Baha'i perspective... We accept the major religions as having a Divine Origin and that they are spiritually one... They differ in their social teachings as they were revealed to humanity at various epochs.

jackcv said:

The Jews seem to believe it ended with Malachi, or somewhere in that period 2,500 years ago.

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Malachi is considered to be the last prophet. That doesn't mean he's the last person who ever received personal communication or anything of the sort.

The station of Prophet in Judaism is a specific role and doesn't mean anybody who speaks with the Lord. Daniel isn't viewed as a prophet in Judaism and it would be undeniable to say that he didn't speak with the Divine.

Arthra said:

Actually this statement is close to the Baha'i perspective... We accept the major religions as having a Divine Origin and that they are spiritually one... They differ in their social teachings as they were revealed to humanity at various epochs.

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I thought so, Arthra. Smaneck seems to radiate that same unity.

It takes some time and careful thought to wrap one's head around the fact that God may give certain truths to one nation and other truths to another. Finally, if we look and pray about this, we see that the best teachers all do this, discerning the level and capacity of their various classes and individual students. Christ exemplified that, and clearly taught it when he said "judge not that ye be not judged", and then just a few seconds later "Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and it irritates the pig." (Or something like that.)

How can a human do both, unless it is through inspiration/revelation from on High? What is the difference, Smaneck, between inspiration and revelation, in your Baha'i doctrines?

LoAmmi said:

Malachi is considered to be the last prophet. That doesn't mean he's the last person who ever received personal communication or anything of the sort.

The station of Prophet in Judaism is a specific role and doesn't mean anybody who speaks with the Lord. Daniel isn't viewed as a prophet in Judaism and it would be undeniable to say that he [spoke] with the Divine.

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Well, I've been educated, LoAmmi. Thanks!

What is the job description of a prophet in Judaism? We LDS, likewise, respect the station of an ordained prophet differently than the station of, say, a bishop, father, mother or child who receives personal revelation for their own stewardship(s).

All are highly respected, but if the Lord is going to reveal His will to the earth, we believe He will do so through those who are ordained prophets. God's house is a house of order. He will, however, personally confirm what his prophet(s) convey to us individually so that we can know the truth for ourselves if we are familiar with the voice of the Spirit.

Is that far different from your beliefs, LoAmmi? Smaneck? Arthra? AskTheFamily?

jackcv said:

Well, I've been educated, LoAmmi. Thanks!

What is the job description of a prophet in Judaism? We LDS, likewise, respect the station of an ordained prophet differently than the station of, say, a bishop, father, mother or child who receives personal revelation for their own stewardship(s).

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The word prophet in Hebrew is Navi and it involves spoken words. So, a prophet is always someone who addressed the people of Israel directly with words from HaShem. Daniel didn't, so he isn't a prophet. It gets confusing for people because the modern day English word tends to mean someone who speaks of the future, but if you check what I've said above, it's quite possible for a prophet to exist who doesn't utter a single word about the future.

The reason we don't believe there have been any Jewish prophets since Malachi has to do with what Moses told the people of Israel when he was going to die. He said that when we entered the land, we wouldn't be left alone as prophets would follow him. Since we're no longer in Israel as a whole, the role of prophet has gone away.