Grace and how Mormons understand it

Jane_the_Bane · Oct 8, 2015

LoAmmi said:
I've often wondered how exactly people believe that the memories of the "soul" get implanted into the brain. See, to me the most likely explanation is hallucinations prior to brain death.

Given that most people seem to experience exactly what corresponds to their beliefs (or to the most widely held beliefs of the culture that surrounds them), I'd say that is a very good educated guess.

gord44 · Oct 8, 2015

LoAmmi said:
In the same proximity, it's possible that they heard the sound with their ears. As for the other cases, I'd be surprised were it actually real. People like to claim all sorts of things but they never have been verified with any sort of science.

One also has to consider that no one has really died and come back beyond brain death. That would be the real kicker to substantiate afterlife claims. A lot of the NDE stuff I hear about sounds similar to experiences I had when I was in my magic mushroom phase. Take from that what you will, but these crazy experiences are available without having to almost die.

Although I have no problem with the idea of an afterlife, I doubt it's what people are seeing in these NDE's.

gord44 · Oct 8, 2015

fatboys said:
I have known of a person who has died. Went to paradise and said it was glorious and wonderful. A feeling of peace and rest that he had never experienced on earth. He also said that as peaceful as it was everyone was busy. A glorious being came to him and said he needed to go back. He did not want to go back but was compelled to do so. The Doctors finally revived him after a half hour of him being dead. Is this what you are talking about Lazarus not choosing?

I don't think a mortal mind could comprehend paradise. Take a few billion years of teaching on various planets and universes before the mortal mind could even begin to comprehend it all.

fatboys · Oct 8, 2015

gordRedeemed said:
I don't think a mortal mind could comprehend paradise. Take a few billion years of teaching on various planets and universes before the mortal mind could even begin to comprehend it all.

Suppose the creator wants you to know

gord44 · Oct 8, 2015

fatboys said:
Suppose the creator wants you to know

Doesn't change the process. Creator gains nothing from that. I imagine if a mortal was somehow transported to paradise, he wouldn't even notice anything. If he did it would probably explode his mind and soul.

Jane_the_Bane · Oct 9, 2015

It's also awfully linear thinking.

Buddhism teaches that we're already there, and the whole trick is to realize this and stop embracing the illusion that we're something else.

fatboys · Oct 9, 2015

gordRedeemed said:
Doesn't change the process. Creator gains nothing from that. I imagine if a mortal was somehow transported to paradise, he wouldn't even notice anything. If he did it would probably explode his mind and soul.

Explain your your reasoning

gord44 · Oct 9, 2015

fatboys said:
Explain your your reasoning

i would say if a mortal mind can comprehend Paradise, then what he saw is not Paradise. Probably just something in his mind. Like I said, I saw 'Paradise' to after eating a gram of mushrooms. Who knows though eh old chap? As good ol' Jane says, maybe Paradise is already here and we just don't see it.

GracetotheHumble · Oct 9, 2015

As an exmormon now lutheran I understand grace in these two denominations to be quite different. As a Lutheran grace speaks of the abundance of gifts that come from God. Gifts such as salvation through faith and gifts such as faith itself. In Mormonism I understood grace to be that which is made up by God after you have done all you can do. This is quite a big difference.

Mormonism does not focus on grace and the gifts of God as Lutheranism does. Mormonism is a works based religion.

Mormonism focuses on what "I" must do. Lutheranism focuses on what "God" has done.

fatboys · Oct 9, 2015

GracetotheHumble said:
As an exmormon now lutheran I understand grace in these two denominations to be quite different. As a Lutheran grace speaks of the abundance of gifts that come from God. Gifts such as salvation through faith and gifts such as faith itself. In Mormonism I understood grace to be that which is made up by God after you have done all you can do. This is quite a big difference.

Mormonism does not focus on grace and the gifts of God as Lutheranism does. Mormonism is a works based religion.

Mormonism focuses on what "I" must do. Lutheranism focuses on what "God" has done.

we believe that all we can do does not save us. The all we can do will fall short of our efforts for our salvation.

GracetotheHumble said:
As an exmormon now lutheran I understand grace in these two denominations to be quite different. As a Lutheran grace speaks of the abundance of gifts that come from God. Gifts such as salvation through faith and gifts such as faith itself. In Mormonism I understood grace to be that which is made up by God after you have done all you can do. This is quite a big difference.

Mormonism does not focus on grace and the gifts of God as Lutheranism does. Mormonism is a works based religion.

Mormonism focuses on what "I" must do. Lutheranism focuses on what "God" has done.

did you actually read the talk?

drstevej · Oct 9, 2015

All you can do implies no lost missed opportunities. Who wants to claim this? I can not.

GracetotheHumble · Oct 9, 2015

fatboys said:
did you actually read the talk?

Yes I did. I take issue with the idea that grace saves us after we have done all we can do. I think that true grace saves us despite the fact that we have done nothing and are undeserving.

Sophrosyne · Oct 9, 2015

drstevej said:
All you can do implies no lost missed opportunities. Who wants to claim this? I can not.

I would think those in Islam believe about the same thing that they will get to heaven if they do "enough" (all that you can do).

AskTheFamily · Oct 9, 2015

Sophrosyne said:
I would think those in Islam believe about the same thing that they will get to heaven if they do "enough" (all that you can do).

I would say this an oversimplification of the view of Islam. According to Quran practically everyone (just a very few excluded) would of followed Satan where it not the grace and mercy of God.

Part of that grace and mercy of God is sending people such as Jesus and they interceding by his permission as intercessors with God by his permission.

Part of that grace is us calling upon God and asking him to pardon us, and that through that, he diminishes the effects of evil deeds till he purifies us from them and makes us worthy of his proximity.

To understand the gist of it, we are taught not to depend upon our actions but upon the grace of God and faith in that, and that God will increase us in good actions as a result.

We believe ultimately not to wait till the death to get forgiven and purified, but to make the journey towards God in this world, and that people such as Jesus come here to save us from the darkness of our sins into the light of their Mastership and authority and guidance and helping companionship which is the light of God and his guidance.

To see what I mean read these supplications of the the chosen Imams:

So it's neither that we can do evil actions and deceive ourselves of God's mercy and grace, neither is it that we rely on our good actions only to distance ourselves from the kind helping hand of God and deceive ourselves again regarding his grace and mercy but in different way this time.

GracetotheHumble · Oct 10, 2015

AskTheFamily said:
We believe ultimately not to wait till the death to get forgiven and purified

How does the forgiveness of sins come in your religion?

AskTheFamily · Oct 10, 2015

GracetotheHumble said:
How does the forgiveness of sins come in your religion?

There are degrees of forgiveness. Ultimate forgiveness would abolish us from all effects of sins and enter us into the highest stages of paradise through guidance of God and vision of Him and his light, and the light of his Guides.

There is lesser degrees of forgiveness where God rewards people in proportion to their good actions as well as his grace with regards to the intercession of the intercessors.

Ultimately, when we bless Mohammad and the family of Mohammad, we are bringing a higher intercession to the whole body of believers as well.

Arthra · Oct 11, 2015

Here is an excerpt from the Baha'i Writings on the Grace of God:

-- that the everlasting bestowal of God vouchsafed to man is never subject to corruption. Inasmuch as He has endowed the phenomenal world with being, it is impossible for that world to become non-being, for it is the very genesis of God; it is the realm of origination; it is a creational and not a subjective world, and the bounty descending upon it is continuous and permanent. Therefore man the highest creature of the phenomenal world is endowed with that continuous bounty bestowed by divine generosity without cessation. For instance, the rays of the sun are continuous, the heat of the sun emanates from it without cessation; no discontinuance of it is conceivable. Even so the bestowal of God is descending upon the world of humanity, never ceasing, continuous, forever. If we say that the bestowal of existence ceases or falters it is equivalent to saying that the sun can exist with cessation of its effulgence. Is this possible? Therefore the effulgences of existence are ever-present and continuous.

~ Abdu'l-Baha

fatboys · Oct 11, 2015

Arthra said:
Here is an excerpt from the Baha'i Writings on the Grace of God:

-- that the everlasting bestowal of God vouchsafed to man is never subject to corruption. Inasmuch as He has endowed the phenomenal world with being, it is impossible for that world to become non-being, for it is the very genesis of God; it is the realm of origination; it is a creational and not a subjective world, and the bounty descending upon it is continuous and permanent. Therefore man the highest creature of the phenomenal world is endowed with that continuous bounty bestowed by divine generosity without cessation. For instance, the rays of the sun are continuous, the heat of the sun emanates from it without cessation; no discontinuance of it is conceivable. Even so the bestowal of God is descending upon the world of humanity, never ceasing, continuous, forever. If we say that the bestowal of existence ceases or falters it is equivalent to saying that the sun can exist with cessation of its effulgence. Is this possible? Therefore the effulgences of existence are ever-present and continuous.

~ Abdu'l-Baha

So what of justice and mercy

Arthra · Oct 11, 2015

fatboys said:
So what of justice and mercy

Of course...

MERCY AND JUSTICE

"The foundation of the Kingdom of God is laid upon justice, fairness, mercy, sympathy and kindness to every soul. Then strive ye with heart and soul to practice love and kindness to the world of humanity at large, except to those souls who are selfish and insincere. It is not advisable to show kindness to a person who is a tyrant, a traitor or a thief because kindness encourages him to become worse and does not awaken him. The more kindness you show to a liar the more he is apt to lie, for he thinks that you know not, while you do know, but extreme kindness keeps you from revealing your knowledge."

~ Abdu'l-Baha,

withwonderingawe · Oct 11, 2015

GracetotheHumble said:
As an exmormon now lutheran I understand grace in these two denominations to be quite different. As a Lutheran grace speaks of the abundance of gifts that come from God. Gifts such as salvation through faith and gifts such as faith itself. In Mormonism I understood grace to be that which is made up by God after you have done all you can do. This is quite a big difference.

Mormonism does not focus on grace and the gifts of God as Lutheranism does. Mormonism is a works based religion.

Mormonism focuses on what "I" must do. Lutheranism focuses on what "God" has done.

Did you actually read the passage that quote comes from, I mean all the way through?

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