How is Once Saved Always Saved not a license to sin? (moved)

John Robie · Oct 8, 2015

Jason0047 said:
We are told not to grieve the Holy Spirit. So yes. A believer can stumble, but that does not equate with one living in sinful lifestyle with the thinking they are saved. Future sin is not forgiven you. It doesn't work like that. If such were the case: Then it lead people to think they can live however they like and still be saved. But how is that different than one being an unbeliever?

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So one who is in Christ can sin. Does scripture tell us that there is no condemnation for those in Christ?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 8, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
I said this:
"How about considering 1 John 1:3,6 and 7? What word occurs 4 times in these 3 verses? Fellowship. This is NOT about getting or staying saved, but about fellowship, or spiritual growth.

I disagree. It is clearly talking salvation.

1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins we are forgiven of sin.

Forgiveness is tied to salvation.

1 John 1:7 says we are cleansed of all sin if we walk in the light as he is in the light. This is in reference to keeping his commandments (See 1 John 2:3-4).

The cleansing of sin by the blood is salvation which can only occur if one is walking in the light (i.e. they are allowing the righteousness of Christ to flow in them).

It's not an excuse. It's an explanation of reality.

No. It is an excuse to defend a sin and still be saved doctrine (Which ignores Scripture).

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Bible Highlighter · Oct 8, 2015

John Robie said:
So one who is in Christ can sin. Does scripture tell us that there is no condemnation for those in Christ?

Read Romans 8:1 a little more closely. There is no Condemnation for those in Christ who walk after the Spirit AND NOT after the flesh.

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FreeGrace2 · Oct 8, 2015

I said this:
"How about considering 1 John 1:3,6 and 7? What word occurs 4 times in these 3 verses? Fellowship. This is NOT about getting or staying saved, but about fellowship, or spiritual growth.

Jason0047 said:
I disagree. It is clearly talking salvation.

Salvation is about relationship. 1 Jn 1 is about fellowship. They are different even when some don't understand that.

1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins we are forgiven of sin.

It's the same principle that Jesus taught the disciples in John 13 about washing their feet. When Jesus got to Peter, he refused, until Jesus said that unless He washed his feet, Peter could have no part with Him. That is about fellowship because then Jesus told him that he was ALREADY CLEAN and didn't need the bath that Peter requested. The point is this: just as those in His day got their feet dirty daily by walking on the dusty roads and paths, so believers "get dirty" daily by living in the world. We don't keep needing baths, but only to wash our feet.

Forgiveness is tied to salvation.

Not so simple. There is the overall forgiveness of ALL sins at the point of faith in Christ. And there is the daily on-going cleansing for our on-going sins in order to maintain or regain fellowship.

But again, those who haven't been taught the difference between relationship and fellowship, and don't understand the need for on-going confession for fellowship simply won't accept these ideas.

1 John 1:7 says we are cleansed of all sin if we walk in the light as he is in the light. This is in reference to keeping his commandments (See 1 John 2:3-4).

It is also about fellowship. Did my explanation of the difference between fellowship and relationship have any meaning?

The cleansing of sin by the blood is salvation which can only occur if one is walking in the light (i.e. they are allowing the righteousness of Christ to flow in them).

No. It is an excuse to defend a sin and still be saved doctrine (Which ignores Scripture).
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Where does Scripture teach that sin causes loss of salvation? Did Christ die for all sin or not? And please support your answer from Scripture.

John Robie · Oct 8, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Read Romans 8:1 a little more closely. There is no Condemnation for those in Christ who walk after the Spirit AND NOT after the flesh.

...

That's what happens when you use a poor translation.

So, can someone in Christ walk after the flesh?

Bible Page · Oct 8, 2015

RC1970 said:
The idea behind OSAS is that the Holy Spirit comes into your life and changes the desire of your heart. So, IF your heart is changed, then your life will reflect that change.

Amen!
But you'd be amazed that there are people who don't get that.
I love this article. I think it helps the Christian who thinks once a sinner always a sinner even after salvation.

Berean Publishers: Are Christians Sinners or Saints?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 8, 2015

Bible Page said:
Amen!
But you'd be amazed that there are people who don't get that.
I love this article. I think it helps the Christian who thinks once a sinner always a sinner even after salvation.

Is this a suggestion or statement that once a person believes in Christ he/she no longer sins????

nobdysfool · Oct 9, 2015

The underlying flaw in this whole argument is that Jason assumes that if a person believes OSAS, they automatically are out living a life of sin, living it up, and being as bad as they can. That simply is not true. that is an insult to those who hold OSAS with a heart full of thanks to God that their Salvation does not depend on what they do (or don't do) but on what He has done, and live their lives to please God and not themselves. The picture Jason is trying to sell here is false. It is a huge straw man logical fallacy.

John Robie · Oct 9, 2015

nobdysfool said:
The underlying flaw in this whole argument is that Jason assumes that if a person believes OSAS, they automatically are out living a life of sin, living it up, and being as bad as they can. That simply is not true. that is an insult to those who hold OSAS with a heart full of thanks to God that their Salvation does not depend on what they do (or don't do) but on what He has done, and live their lives to please God and not themselves. The picture Jason is trying to sell here is false. It is a huge straw man logical fallacy.

In his defense, there are people who think that if you said a prayer at twelve, and lived like hell the rest of your life, you are still saved. Why? Because they "believed", and God keeps His promise to save those who believe. It's a false view of grace and assumes that God doesn't really change a person at conversion.

And that is really Jason's problem, where he doesn't see regeneration as something real. He doesn't see that we get new hearts. His view makes it look like we enter into a contract, and as long as we keep up our end of the bargain, He'll keep up His.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 9, 2015

Bible Page said:
Amen!
But you'd be amazed that there are people who don't get that.
I love this article. I think it helps the Christian who thinks once a sinner always a sinner even after salvation.

Berean Publishers: Are Christians Sinners or Saints?

I believe a person can be transformed because I had experienced that regeneration and change myself. That does not mean God over rides our every decision from that point. That does not mean we may not sin. Yes, I believe that a believer can stop sinning and be perfect. Yet, I also believe a believer can draw back and depart from the living God, too. We still have "free will" to choose Christ (God) and or reject Him.

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Bible Page · Oct 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:
I believe a person can be transformed because I had experienced that regeneration and change myself. That does not mean God over rides our every decision from that point. That does not mean we may not sin. Yes, I believe that a believer can stop sinning and be perfect. Yet, I also believe a believer can draw back and depart from the living God, too. We still have "free will" to choose Christ (God) and or reject Him.

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When Jesus says no one comes to him but the father sends them, and that those who are in the palm of his hand no one can take away, that's what he means. If no one can take the believer out of Jesus' hand because the father put them there, how then is that qualifier of, 'no one', valid on Jesus' part if the only one that can take themselves from his hand is the one there already?

People who depart the faith never to return weren't really of the faith. Who chooses Hell when they were first guaranteed Heaven? Those who weren't transformed. You can't have it two ways. Accept the regenerating power of Christ and then argue that that power is transitory and the person can revert back to the unregenerate state.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 9, 2015

Bible Page said:
When Jesus says no one comes to him but the father sends them,

Well, when you read John 6:44, it also must be read in context to how Christ draws all men unto himself (John 12:32), and it must be read in context of how the Lord is not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and it must be read in context of when Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:20).

and that those who are in the palm of his hand no one can take away, that's what he means. If no one can take the believer out of Jesus' hand because the father put them there, how then is that qualifier of, 'no one', valid on Jesus' part if the only one that can take themselves from his hand is the one there already?

When you read John 10:29, you also have to read the context of Jesus's words that say, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW me:"

We know this is not God forcing man against his will here because Jesus says elsewhere to come to Him.

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (Matthew 11:28).

People who depart the faith never to return weren't really of the faith. Who chooses Hell when they were first guaranteed Heaven? Those who weren't transformed. You can't have it two ways. Accept the regenerating power of Christ and then argue that that power is transitory and the person can revert back to the unregenerate state.

How do we know we were transformed or regenerated? By the fact that the fruits of the Spirit are in our life. By the fact that we do not live a sinful lifestyle day in and day out. By having proper and understanding knowledge of God's Word. By loving the brethren and others.

But that does not mean believers who have partaken of Christ cannot fall away from Him. How so?

The Israelites (i.e. the fathers) who passed thru the Red Sea have drank of that spiritual Rock who was Christ.

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."

However, we learn that they hardened their hearts in the wilderness because of the deceitfulness of sin.

"And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Do Not Harden Your Hearts

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

The Dangers of Unbelief

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:5-14).

Did you catch verse 14? It says we are made partakers of Christ, IF....IF...we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. Doesn't sound like God is over-riding anyone's "free will" here. The passage above also says to the brethren to take heed so as not to have an evil heart of unbelief and thereby depart from the living God. Hence, this is why we are to exhort one another daily against the deceitfulness of sin.

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Bible Page · Oct 9, 2015

I know the context thanks.

And when it comes to the purpose for which Christ was sent, I take Christ's teachings to heart.

Jason0047 said:
Well, when you read John 6:44, it also must be read in context to how Christ draws all men unto himself (John 12:32), and it must be read in context of how the Lord is not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and it must be read in context of when Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:20).

When you read John 10:29, you also have to read the context of Jesus's words that say, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW me:"

We know this is not God forcing man against his will here because Jesus says elsewhere to come to Him.

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (Matthew 11:28).

How do we know we were transformed or regenerated? By the fact that the fruits of the Spirit are in our life. By the fact that we do not live a sinful lifestyle day in and day out. By having proper and understanding knowledge of God's Word. By loving the brethren and others.

But that does not mean believers who have partaken of Christ cannot fall away from Him. How so?

The Israelites (i.e. the fathers) who passed thru the Red Sea have drank of that spiritual Rock who was Christ.

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."

However, we learn that they hardened their hearts in the wilderness because of the deceitfulness of sin.

"And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Do Not Harden Your Hearts

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

The Dangers of Unbelief

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:5-14).

Did you catch verse 14? It says we are made partakers of Christ, IF....IF...we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. Doesn't sound like God is over-riding anyone's "free will" here. The passage above also says to the brethren to take heed so as not to have an evil heart of unbelief and thereby depart from the living God. Hence, this is why we are to exhort one another daily against the deceitfulness of sin.

...

Bible Highlighter · Oct 9, 2015

Bible Page said:
I know the context thanks.

And when it comes to the purpose for which Christ was sent, I take Christ's teachings to heart.

Sorry, that is not going to cut it. If you disagree with my interpretation on the context that I have provided, then lets discuss why you think it says something different.

...

Bible Highlighter · Oct 9, 2015

John Robie said:
In his defense, there are people who think that if you said a prayer at twelve, and lived like hell the rest of your life, you are still saved. Why? Because they "believed", and God keeps His promise to save those who believe. It's a false view of grace and assumes that God doesn't really change a person at conversion.

And that is really Jason's problem, where he doesn't see regeneration as something real. He doesn't see that we get new hearts. His view makes it look like we enter into a contract, and as long as we keep up our end of the bargain, He'll keep up His.

And you would be making a false assumption. I believe one is transformed spiritually and changed because I experienced that new heart and change for myself. I just don't believe God takes away our "free will" to... choose this day in whom we will serve. I believe a saint can stop sinning and truly earn the name of being called a saint. I also believe a saint can draw back and depart from the living God, too. This does not in any way undermine the new birth. Both the concept of regeneration and free will are not in conflict with each other.

...

FreeGrace2 · Oct 9, 2015

nobdysfool said:
The underlying flaw in this whole argument is that Jason assumes that if a person believes OSAS, they automatically are out living a life of sin, living it up, and being as bad as they can. That simply is not true. that is an insult to those who hold OSAS with a heart full of thanks to God that their Salvation does not depend on what they do (or don't do) but on what He has done, and live their lives to please God and not themselves. The picture Jason is trying to sell here is false. It is a huge straw man logical fallacy.

Amen! Well said.

Bible Page · Oct 9, 2015

nobdysfool said:
The underlying flaw in this whole argument is that Jason assumes that if a person believes OSAS, they automatically are out living a life of sin, living it up, and being as bad as they can. That simply is not true. that is an insult to those who hold OSAS with a heart full of thanks to God that their Salvation does not depend on what they do (or don't do) but on what He has done, and live their lives to please God and not themselves. The picture Jason is trying to sell here is false. It is a huge straw man logical fallacy.

Does it make for the question then, is Jason out living a life of sin? Thinking they're in no peril of Hell?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 9, 2015

John Robie said:
In his defense, there are people who think that if you said a prayer at twelve, and lived like hell the rest of your life, you are still saved. Why? Because they "believed", and God keeps His promise to save those who believe.

Where does the Bible say that one who "prays at 12" will be saved? Or, where does the Bible say that anyone is saved by praying?? Very false assumptions.

There's only ONE way to be saved and Paul gave that answer to the jailer who asked him specifically what he MUST DO to be saved; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's a false view of grace and assumes that God doesn't really change a person at conversion.

This conflates 2 separates 2 different issues of "change".

First, there is the immediate change which the Bible calls regeneration, or the new birth, by which the believer becomes a new creation per 2 Cor 5:17, and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Second, the Bible speaks of progressive sanctification, which we speaks of "growing in Christ", becoming Christ-like, spiritual maturity. That is a change that occurs over time, per Heb 5:12. And this change will ONLY OCCUR when one is filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and is walking by means of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16). When the believer either grieves the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenches the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19) they cannot grow up spiritually.

Bible Page · Oct 9, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
Is this a suggestion or statement that once a person believes in Christ he/she no longer sins????

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him (1 John 3:6). We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him (1 John 5:18).

Bible Page · Oct 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Sorry, that is not going to cut it. If you disagree with my interpretation on the context that I have provided, then lets discuss why you think it says something different.

...

If context were your concern you wouldn't be making the argument you are making.
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him (1 John 3:6). We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him (1 John 5:18).

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God (Hebrews 10:26).

How is Once Saved Always Saved not a license to sin? (moved)

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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