Why so many cultural Catholics?

They are not in union with Rome. They are not practicing. But I have to disagree about other sects of Christianity not having this problem. Many people claim Christianity and have never opened a Bible. Set foot in a church or practice. It is a problem across the board.

Destiny2015 said:

Excuse me for jumping into your forum, but I was having a discussion with my (Roman Catholic) husband the other night about how so many people claim to be Catholic, but don't believe in or follow basic Catholic doctrine. It doesn't seem like that's the case with most (any?) other Christians. So why do people cling to the name of Catholic when the disagree with so many teachings? Is that even "allowed"?

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There's an identity involved with being Catholic that doesn't really exist with other groups.

Well most Protestants (when I was one) do not identify with their denomination but simply identify as Christian and then when asked describe the Church they regularly attend. The only ones I knew that identified by their churches were usually Seventh Day Adventists and Mormons. Jehovah's Witnesses as well but they do not call themselves Church.

My experience has been since becoming Catholic is that instead of the Protestant fallback of Christian when not practicing, nonpracticing Catholics simply say Catholic. It is a very different mindset. Protestants will claim they are backslidden or some such. They do not so much associate their salvation with a Church as with a personal relationship with Christ. They go to various churches when unhappy. Catholic's are very Church oriented and associate their relationship with Jesus as interwoven with the Church and being Catholic. Especially if they just stop going and never attend another Church.

Destiny2015 said:

You're right, but it seems like if another Christian decides they don't agree with....Presbyterianism, don't call themselves Presbyterian anymore. I don't see that with my Catholic friends.

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Because who doesn't appreciate an excuse to go to bars and eat fish every Friday for several weeks in Spring?

I would guess that there are two things at work here:

One is that Catholicism is a sacramental religion. This means that it amounts to more than just what you believe. In particular baptism has an actual effect on the baptized and so it is accurate in a sense to say that all those who were baptized Catholic will remain Catholic forever. But even beyond that I think that people who were brought up Catholic realize that there is more going on in the religion then simply checking off a list of required beliefs. In contrast the defining features of many protestant religions are simply the beliefs of those religions, with their rituals in many cases being considered entirely symbolic.

The other thing is that in America Catholicism has tended to be a minority position, especially early in American history. When you are in the minority each way that you are different becomes much clearer, and if your differences are hated (as has happened towards Catholics at many points in the history of our nation) then you will cherish and protect those differences all the more. In contrast protestantism has generally been the majority position and accepted in America, so there is no special sense of identity gained by it.

Now Catholicism is not the only religion which fits this criteria. Judaism is another example and certainly there are "cultural Jews", but that isn't the best example since there are ways in which Judaism can be considered an ethnicity (coming from its origin as the Hebrew Nation). But I suspect that probably there are many "cultural" Orthodox Christians, Mormons, Amish, etc. However since those religions are not as widespread throughout America as Catholics are, you are less likely to run into them.

MoonlessNight said:

I would guess that there are two things at work here:

One is that Catholicism is a sacramental religion. This means that it amounts to more than just what you believe. In particular baptism has an actual effect on the baptized and so it is accurate in a sense to say that all those who were baptized Catholic will remain Catholic forever. But even beyond that I think that people who were brought up Catholic realize that there is more going on in the religion then simply checking off a list of required beliefs. In contrast the defining features of many protestant religions are simply the beliefs of those religions, with their rituals in many cases being considered entirely symbolic.

The other thing is that in America Catholicism has tended to be a minority position, especially early in American history. When you are in the minority each way that you are different becomes much clearer, and if your differences are hated (as has happened towards Catholics at many points in the history of our nation) then you will cherish and protect those differences all the more. In contrast protestantism has generally been the majority position and accepted in America, so there is no special sense of identity gained by it.

Now Catholicism is not the only religion which fits this criteria. Judaism is another example and certainly there are "cultural Jews", but that isn't the best example since there are ways in which Judaism can be considered an ethnicity (coming from its origin as the Hebrew Nation). But I suspect that probably there are many "cultural" Orthodox Christians, Mormons, Amish, etc. However since those religions are not as widespread throughout America as Catholics are, you are less likely to run into them.

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You talk as if Catholics are a small regious community in the US, persecuted because they are so few. I would never guess from your post that there are more Catholics than Baptists.

http://undergod.procon.org/view.background-resource.php?resourceID=87

mark46 said:

You talk as if Catholics are a small regious community in the US, persecuted because they are so few. I would never guess from your post that there are more Catholics than Baptists.

http://undergod.procon.org/view.background-resource.php?resourceID=87

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historically they were a small group, and called all sorts of names because of it.
and yes, judging from the number of churches listed in the local yellow pages, or in the Church page of a local paper,
it may be difficult to believe that there are more Catholics than Baptists nationwide.

my own town is a case in point. There is a Catholic Church that has existed in the same spot for over 50 years in our city.
but it's not listed in the local black paper even though we have many black members and families in good standing in our church
it's not listed in the Worship Places directory of the Rand-MacNally map of our city
the telephone number is not listed in the local phone book
there is no directive sign on the main street through town directing the way to the church

i'm not saying that it is this way across the whole US, but it is a condition that still exists.

Destiny2015 said:

Then let me ask you this. Why go through the sacraments when you don't believe core teachings?

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I would say because they realize that there is more there than meets the eye, even if they cannot explain how they know this or if they would agree with the teachings when discussed fully. There are many people who think that they are done with the Church altogether and disagree with everything it stands for, but when they have a child will suddenly start thinking that is essential that their child is baptized. Or similarly, there are people who do not care for the Church but will seek last rites when the time comes.

It's a bit like this situation from the Gospels:

60Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?

...

66After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. 67Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? 68And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

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When I was a little girl in pre-Vatican II days (what many of you call "the good old days" and what I call TGI2015) we were told that if you were baptized you had received "the gift of faith" and that if you rejected "the gift of faith" and joined another Church or left Church entirely they would go to hell (ah, yes, the good old days!) but that other Christians who hadn't received "the gift of faith" would be off the hook! It made me feel like the kid who got a lump of coal for Christmas instead of toys!

When I received Confirmation at age 11 (the beginning of Vatican II) the nuns told us that if the Communists came to our homes and asked if we were Catholics that before Confirmation we were off the hook! But after we made our Confirmation we'd have to own up and get dragged away! (What an incentive!) Ah, yes, the good old days you dream of so fondly!

They weren't so good, were they?

I walked down to my Confirmation like Wendy in Peter Pan walking the plank!

So no wonder why, having been threatened through their childhood, people stay Catholic even if the fervor isn't there (because of--as I erase another misconception you have of the good old days--poor catechisis! If what we went through wasn't poor catechisis, what was?)

The solution may be to stop bullying and lying to children

Yes, some of this is tongue-in-cheek, but it's all 100% true. You look at the pre-Vatican II days through rose-colored glasses. My childhood stories of the Latin Mass and the threats of Communists dragging us away are the unvarnished truth.

The good old days weren't so good--and the catechisis wasn't so good, either.

Who here is pining away for pre Vatican II days?

Fantine said:

When I was a little girl in pre-Vatican II days (what many of you call "the good old days" and what I call TGI2015) we were told that if you were baptized you had received "the gift of faith" and that if you rejected "the gift of faith" and joined another Church or left Church entirely they would go to hell (ah, yes, the good old days!) but that other Christians who hadn't received "the gift of faith" would be off the hook! It made me feel like the kid who got a lump of coal for Christmas instead of toys!

When I received Confirmation at age 11 (the beginning of Vatican II) the nuns told us that if the Communists came to our homes and asked if we were Catholics that before Confirmation we were off the hook! But after we made our Confirmation we'd have to own up and get dragged away! (What an incentive!) Ah, yes, the good old days you dream of so fondly!

They weren't so good, were they?

I walked down to my Confirmation like Wendy in Peter Pan walking the plank!

So no wonder why, having been threatened through their childhood, people stay Catholic even if the fervor isn't there (because of--as I erase another misconception you have of the good old days--poor catechisis! If what we went through wasn't poor catechisis, what was?)

The solution may be to stop bullying and lying to children

Yes, some of this is tongue-in-cheek, but it's all 100% true. You look at the pre-Vatican II days through rose-colored glasses. My childhood stories of the Latin Mass and the threats of Communists dragging us away are the unvarnished truth.

The good old days weren't so good--and the catechisis wasn't so good, either.

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Michie said:

Who here is pining away for pre Vatican II days?

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Vatican II itself laments the modern domination of evil and says that times were better before.

“Unlike former days, the denial of God or of religion, or the abandonment of them, are no longer unusual and individual occurrences. For today it is not rare for such things to be presented as requirements of scientific progress or of a certain new humanism. In numerous places these views are voiced not only in the teachings of philosophers, but on every side they influence literature, the arts, the interpretation of the humanities and of history and civil laws themselves. As a consequence, many people are shaken.” - Gaudium et Spes, Vatican II (added emphasis)

Fantine said:

we were told that if you were baptized you had received "the gift of faith" and that if you rejected "the gift of faith" and joined another Church or left Church entirely they would go to hell (ah, yes, the good old days!)

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yes, apostasy and heresy are both sins
so I am glad that you learned that

Fantine said:

but that other Christians who hadn't received "the gift of faith" would be off the hook!

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that is not the best way to put it
we can not judge the culpability of those who belong to heretical sects
they might know better, with the Holy Spirit guiding them to the Church, but them willfully rejecting it

Michie said:

Who here is pining away for pre Vatican II days?

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ME!
well not like the 1950's because those days were pretty messed up, that is why we NEEDED Vatican II council
but like the 1880's
that might be nice
to hear Catholics who talk about the Church as being the Church

Fantine said:

When I was a little girl in pre-Vatican II days (what many of you call "the good old days" and what I call TGI2015) we were told that if you were baptized you had received "the gift of faith" and that if you rejected "the gift of faith" and joined another Church or left Church entirely they would go to hell (ah, yes, the good old days!) but that other Christians who hadn't received "the gift of faith" would be off the hook! It made me feel like the kid who got a lump of coal for Christmas instead of toys!

When I received Confirmation at age 11 (the beginning of Vatican II) the nuns told us that if the Communists came to our homes and asked if we were Catholics that before Confirmation we were off the hook! But after we made our Confirmation we'd have to own up and get dragged away! (What an incentive!) Ah, yes, the good old days you dream of so fondly!

They weren't so good, were they?

I walked down to my Confirmation like Wendy in Peter Pan walking the plank!

So no wonder why, having been threatened through their childhood, people stay Catholic even if the fervor isn't there (because of--as I erase another misconception you have of the good old days--poor catechisis! If what we went through wasn't poor catechisis, what was?)

The solution may be to stop bullying and lying to children

Yes, some of this is tongue-in-cheek, but it's all 100% true. You look at the pre-Vatican II days through rose-colored glasses. My childhood stories of the Latin Mass and the threats of Communists dragging us away are the unvarnished truth.

The good old days weren't so good--and the catechisis wasn't so good, either.

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I get fear mongering to children is wrong, but what else should nuns say in that scenario? "If Communists dragged you away, immediately abandon Christ and desecrate his image to save your life."

Also the first thing is true as well, a Catholic who is born into the faith and taught it is at a grave risk of going to Hell if they abandon Catholicism for a non-Catholic Christianity or other religion.

Being Catholics is very much something most are born into and raised in. I was. I rejected it later on and stayed rejecting it for a long time, only coming back recently. I was actually kind of caught between the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy. Why the Catholic Church? Honestly, probably because I was baptized and confirmed here. It really is "home" to me.

My real concern is seeing so many Catholics taking communion every Sunday at mass. I'm often times the only one who does not. There are certain sins in my life that I've yet to give up that keep me from being able to receive worthily, so I abstain. What boggles my mind is that everyone else receives! I know for a fact many of these people are in my same position, but they receive as if it was nothing and don't even think to abstain. I wonder if they even know about what it means to receive unworthily...

And adding to that point, why on earth is it that the priests don't make it clear to the laity that they can't live in sin and receive communion? I've literally never heard such a warning even one time in a Catholic Church.

When I was still Roman Catholic, the only time priests ever made that kind of announcement was on a holiday when many "Christmas and Easter Catholics" would suddenly show up. Father would say "Please, if you are visiting us for the first time in a long time, remember that confession and absolution is necessary to receive communion." Oddly, I don't remember anything following from that (i.e., I didn't see any abstaining from receiving, either).

I hope this won't be taken in a slandering way, but I think this illustrates the answer to your question, OP: Because people are not prevented from claiming Catholicism as theirs by virtue of being born into it (no matter what they're actually doing or believing in their daily lives), you see a lot of Catholics who will proudly claim the title while disclaiming much/all of the content that is supposed to go into that belief. Part of this is probably exacerbated by the sheer size of the church. I do hear sometimes some talk about how pro-abortion politicians are refused communion at Catholic churches (which is wonderful! Keep doing this!), but with so many millions of people around the world, most of whom are not famous (so their stances and sins don't get into the papers)...well, who is going to know if Jim or Betty are cohabitating, or whatever else is going on in their private lives? So it is made much easier to fly under the radar, so to speak. The practice of having people other than priests give the Eucharist probably also doesn't help, even if it does speed things up. In the Orthodox Church, where only the priest will give communion to the people (and the deacons) -- there are no "extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist" or whatever they're called in the RCC -- when you approach you are receiving from a priest who knows you, who you also confess to, and if he hasn't seen you in confession for too long, you will not receive. Most people know better than to approach in those instances, though, so it's not a common thing to see people rebuked. At my church (Coptic Orthodox), it was far more common to have people just attend without receiving, even though they were born into the Church, as they know they would be denied anyway (most commonly for marrying outside of the Church, which incurs automatic excommunication).

Rhamiel said:

ME!
well not like the 1950's because those days were pretty messed up, that is why we NEEDED Vatican II council
but like the 1880's
that might be nice
to hear Catholics who talk about the Church as being the Church

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Indeed. One thing that confused me about her post was her bashing on the TLM. The TLM isn't the only reason I joined the Church. It's not even one of the main reasons. But I won't lie, the TLM is a tremendous benefit to being Catholic. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

dzheremi said:

When I was still Roman Catholic, the only time priests ever made that kind of announcement was on a holiday when many "Christmas and Easter Catholics" would suddenly show up. Father would say "Please, if you are visiting us for the first time in a long time, remember that confession and absolution is necessary to receive communion." Oddly, I don't remember anything following from that (i.e., I didn't see any abstaining from receiving, either).

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Sounds like those priests read the book, "How NOT to Win Friends and Influence People." What a way to insure that those Christmas and Easter Catholics wouldn't be back until the following holiday--if then.

On Christmas and Easter (and occasions like First Communions and weddings) I have heard priests say, "If you haven't been to church in a long time, we are so happy you are here. The choir has been practicing for months. The Altar Society ladies have been decorating the Church all week. We are happy to see you all!"

I have witnessed a family member at my son's first Communion (married outside the Church) burst into tears of joy because she felt so welcomed, and felt her burdens eased.

She is now widowed and a practicing Catholic.

Imagine if she had been greeted by the bouncer-type priests you describe.

In the short term, you might think that lectures and scoldings are protecting the Eucharist from sacrilege. But lectures and scoldings never brought people into Church...

You may not know how much courage or effort it took to get those lapsed Catholics through the door to that point of grace--only to get rebuffed again by the UNevangelists.

No wonder why some are lured into the welcoming non-denominational Churches with their potluck suppers and Cliff's Notes doctrine.