Fantastic article on putting the current crisis of Pope and Bishop in historical perpective

Athanasias

Regular Member
Jan 24, 2008
5,788
1,036
St. Louis
✟54,560.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Today there is much worry from many Catholics because of the heretical German Bishops, the abuse crisis, and the "Liberal Pope" (according to the media). Many traditional protestants are also worried as they have told me "If the Pope and catholic church goes we all go".

Well relax! This article is great and a great reminder that although we have had imperfect sinful Popes and grave sinners who were bishops and clergy this is nothing new and the Church and her teachings moral and doctrinal will not fail because Christ promised that in Matthew. It examines the life of Pope Pius VI and all the controversy that took place and threatened to wipe out the papacy in the 18th century. Its powerful historical and negative evidence for Christ Church and papacy.



http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-catholic-church-will-survive-putting-crises-in-perspective/
 
  • Like
Reactions: pdudgeon

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I'll never understand why it's so scandalous that Pope Francis is on the left economically speaking. I believe in free markets and (to a degree) profit but I don't find his comments all that terrible. If anything, a lot of people need to take his words as close to heart as possible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Athanasias
Upvote 0

Cappadocious

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2012
3,885
860
✟30,661.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I'll never understand why it's so scandalous that Pope Francis is on the left economically speaking.

Because starting in the 80's a lot of Evangelicals en masse began associating Christianity with free market capitalism, and a lot of American Roman Catholics started to be/already were Evangelicals with collars and Mass.

To use the language of Dostoevsky, they took the 3rd Temptation.
 
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Because starting in the 80's a lot of Evangelicals en masse began associating Christianity with free market capitalism, and a lot of American Roman Catholics started to be/already were Evangelicals with collars and Mass.

To use the language of Dostoevsky, they took the 3rd Temptation.
Well, I was being somewhat rhetorical there. But yes, you are correct. I think the worst thing that's happened to Christianity at least in America is the association with the Republican Party. Don't get me wrong now, the GOP has some good ideas but religion goes deeper than party affiliation. I have low expectations of evangelicals but Catholics really should know better.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,308
16,144
Flyoverland
✟1,237,333.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Well, I was being somewhat rhetorical there. But yes, you are correct. I think the worst thing that's happened to Christianity at least in America is the association with the Republican Party. Don't get me wrong now, the GOP has some good ideas but religion goes deeper than party affiliation. I have low expectations of evangelicals but Catholics really should know better.
I started out life as a Democrat. My grandfather was a DFL (Democratic-Farmer-Labor, Minnesotan for 'Democrat') party boss in rural Minnesota. My father took me to precinct caucuses. I continued on my own in the ealy 1980's going to caucuses but ran into a sort of glass ceiling put in place to prevent pro-life people from having any real say in the party. They had mogrified away from being the party of Hubert Humphrey into something crazy liberal at their core.

So I think it was 1987 I walked out and joined that other party. They were actually far more open to someone who had not lost all of the old political positions of the Democrats. I ended up as an alternate to the state central committee and seated as a central committee delegate, got to grill some candidates for governor, had a good time, endorsed Michele Bachmann for school board at the very very start of her political career.

After a while I noticed that the Republicans seemed to want my votes, and to keep them they seemed willing to say all the right things on abortion but to do almost nothing when they had the power to do it. As long as they could keep me as a reliable voter they didn't so much care to actually be as pro-life as they said they were. Didn't make me happy to see that it was about obtaining and holding power. Not the 'happy warrior' view of a Hubert Humphrey. So I scaled back my involvement.

Today I am an uncomfortable Republican. They do not set my agenda. They have no lock on my vote. But that other party, the one I grew up in, has only very rare moments where I can agree with them. So I'm kinda stuck. I suppose I should have been a tenacious Democrat, fighting all the way for what I believed. Or, once switched, a tenacious Republican, fighting hard all the way for what I believe. Neither option seemed very appealing, being that much a political animal. I have chaired precinct caucuses and insisted that we were going to have pro-life resolutions before going home. But I just do not see politics as salvation.

The problem is when a party knows you have nowhere else to go.
 
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I do hope you didn't feel singled out in my post. I ranted a bit about the GOP because my views evolved beyond their platform but that doesn't mean I look down my nose at them. I just think a lot of Republican voters have confused that with being a Christian and it's just not healthy in my opinion. But, again, I hope you don't feel like I was bashing on you or anyone else because I wasn't trying to bash on anybody.
 
Upvote 0

mark46

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 29, 2010
20,066
4,740
✟839,413.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I started out life as a Democrat.
====
EDIT
I see why now. One of my ignored posters made political comments to which you responded.
======
My grandfather was a DFL (Democratic-Farmer-Labor, Minnesotan for 'Democrat') party boss in rural Minnesota. My father took me to precinct caucuses. I continued on my own in the ealy 1980's going to caucuses but ran into a sort of glass ceiling put in place to prevent pro-life people from having any real say in the party. They had mogrified away from being the party of Hubert Humphrey into something crazy liberal at their core.

So I think it was 1987 I walked out and joined that other party. They were actually far more open to someone who had not lost all of the old political positions of the Democrats. I ended up as an alternate to the state central committee and seated as a central committee delegate, got to grill some candidates for governor, had a good time, endorsed Michele Bachmann for school board at the very very start of her political career.

After a while I noticed that the Republicans seemed to want my votes, and to keep them they seemed willing to say all the right things on abortion but to do almost nothing when they had the power to do it. As long as they could keep me as a reliable voter they didn't so much care to actually be as pro-life as they said they were. Didn't make me happy to see that it was about obtaining and holding power. Not the 'happy warrior' view of a Hubert Humphrey. So I scaled back my involvement.

Today I am an uncomfortable Republican. They do not set my agenda. They have no lock on my vote. But that other party, the one I grew up in, has only very rare moments where I can agree with them. So I'm kinda stuck. I suppose I should have been a tenacious Democrat, fighting all the way for what I believed. Or, once switched, a tenacious Republican, fighting hard all the way for what I believe. Neither option seemed very appealing, being that much a political animal. I have chaired precinct caucuses and insisted that we were going to have pro-life resolutions before going home. But I just do not see politics as salvation.

The problem is when a party knows you have nowhere else to go.

I'm not sure why you posted your political testimony here. Since I started my party involvement working on a DFL campaign in 1964, I understand the party of Hubert Humphrey, from his 1948 speech on civil rights onward (I was a bit young and didn't her that one live). There were always Democrats to the left of Humphrey, especially in Minnesota. We need to remember that Humphrey was the right wing Democrat who kicked the communists out of the Democratic Party (before the Farmer and Labor parties would join them). So, the idea that Sanders is new is certainly not the case.

The core beliefs of what it means to be a Democrat and what it means to be a Republican have changed from the times of Goldwater and Humphrey in 1964. The Democratic Party lost its right wing in the South to the Republicans, primarily over civil rights. However, the core liberals who followed Humphrey, and the moderates who followed Bill Clinton are still there. The Republicans developed into the party of Reagan, and then Gingritch. Now, followers of both find it difficult to be nominated, because they are too moderate. Gingritch and Kasick were THE soldiers of the Republican revolution in the 90's (when Clinton was president). And the idea of Bush being too far left is just plain silly. But that's where the Republican Party is.
=========================
If I might make a comment. Abortion is a terrible thing, always wrong. However, the government can do little to change the hearts of the people. The government can do what it can to reduce the number of abortions through the support of education, for money to support pregnant moms, and for a guarantee that a woman's job will be there when she returns to work. The Supreme Court has ruled. The restrictions on abortions continue to be passed. And that's great. So many Catholics left the party in 2000 when the Church appealed to its members to stay home or to vote for Bush, under threat of hell. We have lived with the consequences of that choice. The Church is more wise now. Pope Francis has asked for less emphasis on abortion (and gay marriage) as a political issue. There are many, many, many more important life issues and issues of morality. The pope and the US council of bishops has laid these issues out many times. A Catholic doesn't have to be part of a party whose top three issues are guns, abortion and gay marriage, rather than all those issues with which government action can be essential.

My plea/suggestion to you is to look beyond abortion and gay marriage. Look at the political ideas of the bishops and the pope (especially with regard to immigration, health care, climate change, bank regulation, minimum wage, gun background checks, the death penalty, and education. Then re-consider the two parties, especially the leaders. Then make a new, fresh, decision on which party is worthy of your moral and reasoned choice.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Look beyond the issues of helpless innocent life and the mockery of a sacrament??? Um, no. I may have left'ish economic views but there are no circumstances where people should vote for candidates who support the murder of children.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,308
16,144
Flyoverland
✟1,237,333.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
I do hope you didn't feel singled out in my post. I ranted a bit about the GOP because my views evolved beyond their platform but that doesn't mean I look down my nose at them. I just think a lot of Republican voters have confused that with being a Christian and it's just not healthy in my opinion. But, again, I hope you don't feel like I was bashing on you or anyone else because I wasn't trying to bash on anybody.

I did not feel singled out. Not at all.

I agree that a wedding of Republican and Christian should be declared null, but I guess first the parties to the marriage have to figure out that they never did belong together. However I do also think the marriage of Catholic and Democrat is a manifest failure even though it started out on a tiny bit sounder grounds. I consider the Democratic party a desert. The Republican party merely arid.

Many who fled to the Republican party adopted a lot of bad policy in trying to 'get with the program' in the Republican party. They thought they had to adopt the 'eat the poor' mentality to be good Republicans, so they did. They didn't have to.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,308
16,144
Flyoverland
✟1,237,333.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
If I might make a comment. Abortion is a terrible thing, always wrong. However, the government can do little to change the hearts of the people. The government can do what it can to reduce the number of abortions through the support of education, for money to support pregnant moms, and for a guarantee that a woman's job will be there when she returns to work. The Supreme Court has ruled. The restrictions on abortions continue to be passed. And that's great. So many Catholics left the party in 2000 when the Church appealed to its members to stay home or to vote for Bush, under threat of hell. We have lived with the consequences of that choice. The Church is more wise now. Pope Francis has asked for less emphasis on abortion (and gay marriage) as a political issue. There are many, many, many more important life issues and issues of morality. The pope and the US council of bishops has laid these issues out many times. A Catholic doesn't have to be part of a party whose top three issues are guns, abortion and gay marriage, rather than all those issues with which government action can be essential.

My plea/suggestion to you is to look beyond abortion and gay marriage. Look at the political ideas of the bishops and the pope (especially with regard to immigration, health care, climate change, bank regulation, minimum wage, gun background checks, the death penalty, and education. Then re-consider the two parties, especially the leaders. Then make a new, fresh, decision on which party is worthy of your moral and reasoned choice.

For a politician to even have a chance at my vote he or she has to meet certain minimum standards, even if they are running for dogcatcher. One of those is that they must be pro-life. Another is that they must be pro-marriage. If they are, and otherwise reasonably competent, I'll think about voting for them. It's not a be-all and end-all thing with me, but it is a minimum standard, a first filter. You don't get my vote if you are not pro-life and pro-marriage. Not the only criteria, but the starting criteria. Then all of the other criteria can be assessed.

Francis has not said that other issues are more important. Just that there are more issues. To focus ONLY on pro-life and pro-family issues to the point of ignoring other issues is wrong. But to say pro-life and pro-family issues are now unimportant is a misreading of Francis, one the media would be all too happy to encourage.

I gave up being a member a long time ago of a party whose top three issues were guns, abortion and gay marriage. I became a Republican, and have appreciated a bit more breathing room. I'm glad to have left. Not that I'm perfectly comfortable as a Republican, but it is a bigger tent than the one I was in.

I would rather have multiple contending parties. Not that such a thing would be pretty, but then I would have more choices than the Obama/Romney choice of 2012, which was unsatisfactory as far as I was concerned. The German Christian Democratic Union party sometimes looks appealing.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,308
16,144
Flyoverland
✟1,237,333.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Today there is much worry from many Catholics because of the heretical German Bishops, the abuse crisis, and the "Liberal Pope" (according to the media). Many traditional protestants are also worried as they have told me "If the Pope and catholic church goes we all go".

Well relax! This article is great and a great reminder that although we have had imperfect sinful Popes and grave sinners who were bishops and clergy this is nothing new and the Church and her teachings moral and doctrinal will not fail because Christ promised that in Matthew. It examines the life of Pope Pius VI and all the controversy that took place and threatened to wipe out the papacy in the 18th century. Its powerful historical and negative evidence for Christ Church and papacy.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-catholic-church-will-survive-putting-crises-in-perspective/

From the article:
(Note: An epic battle is always raging for the future of the Church.)

The article you linked to has helped. We see this synod being acted out almost in real time. So we feel we have to react right now to things we once would not have even heard of until they were already done. I think I can worry less and pray more now.
 
Upvote 0