Food for thought.

Chriliman

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ToddNotTodd

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Is it possible that the logic you base your reasoning on could be wrong? Or can you not admit when you're wrong therefore not being an open minded person?

I'll let others chime in if they'd like as to whether I'm right or not. A consensus is useful.

Do you care if you're doing more harm than good here?

I'm sure you realize that I'm going to keep asking this question. I actually had one Christian tell me that it didn't matter how bad his arguments were, or how much people were turned off by them. I'm wondering if you're the same type of person, and if so, what I can glean from that.
 
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Chriliman

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I'll let others chime in if they'd like as to whether I'm right or not. A consensus is useful.

Indeed

Do you care if you're doing more harm than good here?

I don't care if you don't like me personally, that's your problem.

I'm sure you realize that I'm going to keep asking this question. I actually had one Christian tell me that it didn't matter how bad his arguments were, or how much people were turned off by them. I'm wondering if you're the same type of person, and if so, what I can glean from that.

You won't hear that from me. What you will hear is that it doesn't matter what you say, I seek the truth even when others insist I'm wrong. The simple reason for this is because I know humans cannot define what truth is, only truth defines itself as true.
 
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Chriliman

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Can someone please recommend me an extremely solid and durable irony meter?

Did you choose to ignore this?

Someone couldn't possibly know there's an odd number of stars in the universe unless that information was revealed to them somehow. That knowledge could only come from a knowledge source higher than finite human knowledge.

Person 1 "I know there's an odd number of stars in the universe"

Person 2 "I don't accept that statement as true"

Person 1 "Do you accept it as false?"

Person 2 "No"

Person 1 "Then you must admit that you don't know if I'm telling the truth or not"

Person 2 "Correct"
 
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bhsmte

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Is it possible that the logic you base your reasoning on could be wrong? Or can you not admit when you're wrong therefore not being an open minded person?

Irony, irony and more irony!!!

This thread is like reading a text book on psychological defense mechanisms.
 
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Chriliman

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Irony, irony and more irony!!!

Did you choose to ignore this?

Someone couldn't possibly know there's an odd number of stars in the universe unless that information was revealed to them somehow. That knowledge could only come from a knowledge source higher than finite human knowledge.

Person 1 "I know there's an odd number of stars in the universe"

Person 2 "I don't accept that statement as true"

Person 1 "Do you accept it as false?"

Person 2 "No"

Person 1 "Then you must admit that you don't know if I'm telling the truth or not"

Person 2 "Correct"
 
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ToddNotTodd

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I don't care if you don't like me personally, that's your problem.

My opinions of you don't have anything to do with the question I'm asking. Which is, again...

Do you care if you're doing more harm than good here?

You won't hear that from me. What you will hear is that it doesn't matter what you say, I seek the truth even when others insist I'm wrong. The simple reason for this is because I know humans cannot define what truth is, only truth defines itself as true.

So even though none of the non-believers responding to you think you're arguments aren't riddled with fallacies, or are convincing in any way, you're good?

What do you think you're accomplishing here?
 
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quatona

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Did you choose to ignore this?
Yes, I have been ignoring pretty much each of your thought attempts, ever since I learned that you are unable to string together a line of reasoning that at least faintly resembles an argument.

Someone couldn't possibly know there's an odd number of stars in the universe unless that information was revealed to them somehow.
And until you can give us a good reason to believe that you are such a privileged person who has been revealed "unknowable truths", there isn´t any reason to even only look into your truth claims and appeals to your own authority.
 
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Chriliman

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Ultimately the truth is that we can't both be right (even though atheists aren't making a truth claim). So in reality it's either true that I'm right or it's true that I'm wrong and atheist don't know either way.

Which has been my point.
 
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Freodin

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Ultimately the truth is that we can't both be right (even though atheists aren't making a truth claim). So in reality it's either true that I'm right or it's true that I'm wrong and atheist don't know either way.

Which has been my point.
There is a nice essay by Isaac Asimov about the Relativity of Wrongness. You should read it sometimes.
 
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Davian

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Not an ad hominem because he is not maintaining a position.
Which, of course, is a misrepresentation of my position.
In order to maintain a position you must be claiming that your position is true.
Not at all. One may say that they don't know, or that they only have a tentative conclusion based on available evidence. Those are not truth claims.
Davian has mastered the art of rejecting all truth claims regarding origins in order to sound as if he knows something, when in fact he can't know anything if he's rejecting all truth claims.
Word salad. If you were claiming to have figured out cold fusion, I need not take the position that it is impossible, or know how it actually may be done, in order to critically analyze your claim. That is all that I am doing.
 
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quatona

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Ah, finally the "ultimate truth" (which you kept equating to "God") is out. Puh, that took long!
is that we can't both be right
Right about what?
So in reality it's either true that I'm right or it's true that I'm wrong
Right about what?
And just to help you not tangle yourself up in redundant word salad too much:
Simply "I´m right or I´m wrong" would have sufficed, without no loss of content.

So, breaking news: Chriliman is either right or wrong about something.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Ultimately the truth is that we can't both be right (even though atheists aren't making a truth claim). So in reality it's either true that I'm right or it's true that I'm wrong and atheist don't know either way.

Which has been my point.

Your point doesn't seem to have point...

What is the point in saying the obvious?
 
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Davian

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Except when it comes to the truth about origins of what we perceive in reality. All of you admit you don't know the truth, so how can you possibly show a claimed truth is false if you yourself do not know the truth? At best you can deny the claimed truth and just admit you don't know.
Not at all. If you claim that the Sun orbits the Earth, I can use evidence, such as astronomical observations, to falsify that claim, without making a counter truth claim.
 
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Chriliman

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Your point doesn't seem to have point...

What is the point in saying the obvious?

My point is that it's very difficult for atheists to admit that they don't know if an eternal and infinite God exists or not and the fact that Christians claim to know, for some reason doesn't sit well with them, even though they admit they don't know.

I just find it all curiously odd, like someone's refusing to admit something and we're all in suspense, waiting for the truth to be revealed.
 
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