He "Fought for nothing."

stamperben · Oct 7, 2015

The parallels to how we fought in Vietnam are astounding. We lost in the past and we have lost now. Time to face the fact and end the charade that we can "nation build".

I fought for nothing: Staggering incompetence, egregious corruption & America’s doomed war in Afghanistan

I’ve been waiting for the fall of Kunduz. Not Kunduz, specifically, but the fall of a town in Afghanistan of some size and importance. It was my prediction back in 2005, when I left the war, that eventually we would lose it. In the decade since, it was a prediction I felt more comfortable making. The full length of my prediction is this: The fledgling corrupt government that we have supported will increasingly find itself losing cities to the Taliban. Eventually, Afghanistan will splinter into fragments, most of them outside the penumbra of protection offered by the weak central government. In time, Afghanistan will lose all of the meager gains that I and other American soldiers fought for.

It will be as if we fought for nothing.

Armoured · Oct 7, 2015

stamperben said:
The parallels to how we fought in Vietnam are astounding. We lost in the past and we have lost now. Time to face the fact and end the charade that we can "nation build".

I fought for nothing: Staggering incompetence, egregious corruption & America’s doomed war in Afghanistan

I’ve been waiting for the fall of Kunduz. Not Kunduz, specifically, but the fall of a town in Afghanistan of some size and importance. It was my prediction back in 2005, when I left the war, that eventually we would lose it. In the decade since, it was a prediction I felt more comfortable making. The full length of my prediction is this: The fledgling corrupt government that we have supported will increasingly find itself losing cities to the Taliban. Eventually, Afghanistan will splinter into fragments, most of them outside the penumbra of protection offered by the weak central government. In time, Afghanistan will lose all of the meager gains that I and other American soldiers fought for.

It will be as if we fought for nothing.

I sacrificed a lot, not least my innocence, in Iraq and in the lead up to it. I cannot tell you who angry it makes me seeing what small gains were made there be squandered, and the gleeful rush to re-engage in yet more pointless, exitless quagmire in the region for the sake of "doing something" fills me with a depression I find hard to articulate.

stamperben · Oct 7, 2015

Armoured said:
I sacrificed a lot, not least my innocence, in Iraq and in the lead up to it. I cannot tell you who angry it makes me seeing what small gains were made there be squandered, and the gleeful rush to re-engage in yet more pointless, exitless quagmire in the region for the sake of "doing something" fills me with a depression I find hard to articulate.

The question then becomes, why on earth do we as a nation fight war this way? Is it because, as was pointed out in the article, multimillion dollar bases are to be built by contractors only to be abandoned, then to build replacements for what was left to rot?

Armoured · Oct 7, 2015

stamperben said:
The question then becomes, why on earth do we as a nation fight war this way? Is it because, as was pointed out in the article, multimillion dollar bases are to be built by contractors only to be abandoned, then to build replacements for what was left to rot?

Well, I certainly believe that that is what motivates the lobbyists on behalf of the contractors and arms dealers... but the fact is that there is an aggressive element to the human psyche, and we still very much instinctively think of violence as the immediate solution to an inter personal/state/cultural problem. When we existed in loose bands of ~100 individuals, armed with sticks and rocks, it was probably perfectly adequate. Any serious study of history is a study of how violence has been less and less decisive for serious issues over time, and how violence has only served to make complex situations worse.

Throw in a healthy dose of machismo, i.e. "diplomacy and negotiation is for weak girly wusses, real men fight" and you get the uninformed thinking that violence should be the go to. Never mind that all the informed people urge caution, and try to emphasise how a sledgehammer is not the right tool for calibrating scales, people who get their military knowledge from Hollywood and antiseptic books about how America single handedly fought and defeated the Nazis, who the rabble rousers are constantly telling we must DO SOMETHING, demand violence, and the callow politicians will give it to them.

10 years since I was in combat. I still have nightmares and flashbacks. An incident that demonstrated the effect of a 25mm chaingun round on a human skull at close range particularly plagues me. It's also the incident I would love to make any of the forum's warmongers experience for themselves, before they start waxing about what the military should do.

brinny · Oct 7, 2015

My heart goes out to any of our soldiers, our most un-appreciated brave souls anywhere.

Each of you will always have my regard, my support and my respect.

Armoured · Oct 7, 2015

brinny said:
My heart goes out to any of our soldiers, our most un-appreciated brave souls anywhere.

Each of you will always have my regard, my support and my respect.

See, that's a lovely sentiment. But what I think you and others fail to realise is that what we actually want, is not to be sent into war zones except in case of utter necessity, and then only if there's a workable plan to improve the situation.

brinny · Oct 7, 2015

Armoured said:
See, that's a lovely sentiment. But what I think you and others fail to realise is that what we actually want, is not to be sent into war zones except in case of utter necessity, and then only if there's a workable plan to improve the situation.

I do get that, and yes, i agree. It's tragic.

cow451 · Oct 7, 2015

Armoured said:
It's also the incident I would love to make any of the forum's warmongers experience for themselves, before they start waxing about what the military should do.

Please keep holding us civvies accountable.

NightHawkeye · Oct 7, 2015

stamperben said:
It will be as if we fought for nothing.

Sad ...

The Afghanistan war never did make much sense. IIRC, the war against the Taliban was largely won by locals with a little help from US advisers ... and then we sent troops in.

cow451 · Oct 7, 2015

NightHawkeye said:
Sad ...

The Afghanistan war never did make much sense. IIRC, the war against the Taliban was largely won by locals with a little help from US advisers ... and then we sent troops in.

Then W. Bush decided to invade Iraq. Thanks, Obama.

NightHawkeye · Oct 7, 2015

cow451 said:
Then W. Bush decided to invade Iraq. Thanks, Obama.

To fight against Islamism ... with the support of the Muslim Brotherhood. :doh:

It boggles the mind. Noting that before one goes to war ... one really needs to define exactly who one is going to war with and to define the objectives of the conflict.

lupusFati · Oct 7, 2015

Which is why I'd like war to stop for a decade or two. To prove we don't need it except in the most dire of circumstances.

I'm tired of the older generations resorting to war instantly and then blaming us 'millenials' when things go wrong.

I'm also very, very tired for our soldiers, who when they come back as veterans, do not get the help and support they need, for fighting a war that shouldn't have been fought in the first place.

cow451 · Oct 7, 2015

NightHawkeye said:
To fight against Islamism ... with the support of the Muslim Brotherhood.

It boggles the mind. Noting that before one goes to war ... one really needs to define exactly who one is going to war with and to define the objectives of the conflict.

Yes, it does boggle the mind, LOL.
The chickens have indeed come home to roost. The neocons ignorant of Islamic divisions, eager to remake the Middle East as they pleased, have let the genie of sectarian strife out of the bottle. But they will never acknowledge it. “Let’s not dwell on the past,” they say, when asked about events in 2003. “We need to focus on this new threat to the Homeland.” When asked why Iraq is such a mess, they reply: “They squandered the opportunity [for ‘democracy’ etc.] that we gave them.” In other words, in their weird little age-old religious disputes over arcane issues worthy of Trivial Pursuit, the Iraqis brought this chaos on themselves, and now we, as the responsible adults, have to go in and straighten things out. (This despite the fact that Iraq has a 270,000-strong army trained by the U.S. at the cost of $ 17 billion. It buckled when confronted with ISIL and Baghdad has only been saved by Shiite militias that once fought occupation troops.)

ChristsSoldier115 · Oct 7, 2015

It doesn't matter when we pull out Afghanistan. It will fall apart. Obama is just holding out for the next guy to do it, because he has already gotten enough flack for Iraq imploding upon itself after we pulled out.

My experiences over there? Where we took over the locals had huge support for the Taliban because the afghani police were robbing the locals to survive. The government wasn't paying them. So the locals viewed the Taliban as almost heroes in comparison.. they weren't being robbed by the Taliban. Most towns seemed virtually autonomous, and it made sense when I read a book on russia's failures over there when I was over there. I don't think they really understand the concept of a central government. I don't know how the Taliban enforced anything when they were in power, but they managed to do something the current government can't do.

Belk · Oct 7, 2015

Armoured said:
Well, I certainly believe that that is what motivates the lobbyists on behalf of the contractors and arms dealers... but the fact is that there is an aggressive element to the human psyche, and we still very much instinctively think of violence as the immediate solution to an inter personal/state/cultural problem. When we existed in loose bands of ~100 individuals, armed with sticks and rocks, it was probably perfectly adequate. Any serious study of history is a study of how violence has been less and less decisive for serious issues over time, and how violence has only served to make complex situations worse.

Throw in a healthy dose of machismo, i.e. "diplomacy and negotiation is for weak girly wusses, real men fight" and you get the uninformed thinking that violence should be the go to. Never mind that all the informed people urge caution, and try to emphasise how a sledgehammer is not the right tool for calibrating scales, people who get their military knowledge from Hollywood and antiseptic books about how America single handedly fought and defeated the Nazis, who the rabble rousers are constantly telling we must DO SOMETHING, demand violence, and the callow politicians will give it to them.

10 years since I was in combat. I still have nightmares and flashbacks. An incident that demonstrated the effect of a 25mm chaingun round on a human skull at close range particularly plagues me. It's also the incident I would love to make any of the forum's warmongers experience for themselves, before they start waxing about what the military should do.

Sounds rough man. I was not even in combat and I still have nightmares sometimes. I can only imagine what you guys go through.

He "Fought for nothing."

It's an old family tradition

So is America great again yet?

It's an old family tradition

So is America great again yet?

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places

So is America great again yet?

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places

Standing with Ukraine.

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Standing with Ukraine.

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Bigby, Reid, and Z

Standing with Ukraine.

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