Lucifer is the Queen of Heaven

timewerx said:

Yes. And Jesus also warned us against the Yeast (even just a )small portion of the Pharisees (Judaists) and their literature is all over the Bible. And Jesus did not promise us the Bible, He promised the Holy Spirit to be our guide to all truths (John 16:13)

If you think you cannot go along as a Christian without the Bible even if the Holy Spirit is our guide, you are mocking Christ and the Holy Spirit and you don't have faith they are the source of all Truths. If you always assume that the Holy Spirit will tell you to read the whole Bible then you are opening yourself to deception by a biased thinking. You cannot assume what the Holy Spirit will do next. What you think you know what is right for you, isn't always the same to the One who knows everything.

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On this point I fear you are essentially embracing the Gnostic error which reached its nadir under the Heresiarch Marcion - to wit, that the Old and New Testaments are in opposition.

Now I have of late been debating with several demented persons in another forum about the insufficiency of Sola Scriptura, however, in so doing I approached from the standpoint of the Orthodox Church, that Scripture is part of Holy Tradition, guided by the Holy Spirit. We do not however presume to be prophets, that is to say, trust any kind of "internal voice" (which is most likely of demonic origin) that says what doctrines are correct or incorrect, but rather in accordance with divine instruction, seek to evaluate and test any such apparent "inspiration" against Scripture as understood according to the Holy Tradition of the Orhodox faith.

Wgw said:

On this point I fear you are essentially embracing the Gnostic error which reached its nadir under the Heresiarch Marcion - to wit, that the Old and New Testaments are in opposition.

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I don't acknowledge Marcion because Marcion has many mistakes in his theology and because he was educated in Pauline theology.

seek to evaluate and test any such apparent "inspiration" against Scripture as understood according to the Holy Tradition of the Orhodox faith.

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But it's not working out very well isn't it?? Otherwise, we'd all be under one denomination. Why did every denomination have their slightly different interpretation??

Why is it SO EASY to interpret the scriptures in a different way??

Unite all of Christianity under one denomination, until then, what you said there is false. The antichrist uniting all of Christianity under one denomination does not count....

The Orthodox have suffered very few schisms, and thise that did occur that did not resolve can entirely be attributed to external political causes. It was the manipulations of the Carolignian Emperors which led to the Great Schism of 1054; the threatened persecution of Sassanids caused the Nestorian schism of 433; the Chalcedonian schism was caused by complex factors but is in the process of being resolved.

The majority of schismatic denominations can be traced to Roman Catholicism; the root cause of them is essentially twofold: the corruption of the Papacy in the 15th and 16th centuries, and the theological error of Sola Scriptura, which caused the Protestants to suffer uncontrollable successions of schisms.

timewerx said:

Yes. And Jesus also warned us against the Yeast (even just a )small portion of the Pharisees (Judaists) and their literature is all over the Bible. And Jesus did not promise us the Bible, He promised the Holy Spirit to be our guide to all truths (John 16:13)

If you think you cannot go along as a Christian without the Bible even if the Holy Spirit is our guide, you are mocking Christ and the Holy Spirit and you don't have faith they are the source of all Truths. If you always assume that the Holy Spirit will tell you to read the whole Bible then you are opening yourself to deception by a biased thinking. You cannot assume what the Holy Spirit will do next. What you think you know what is right for you, isn't always the same to the One who knows everything.

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You do not now what you are talking about. The WORD became flesh and dwelt among us.

The very idea that you think you can pick and choose which part of scripture is ok and which is not is sheer lunacy

BukiRob said:

You do not now what you are talking about. The WORD became flesh and dwelt among us.

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And Christ (Word who became flesh) promised us the Holy Spirit...

And the Holy Spirit told us to read the Bible...yeah right...anyone can do it....

That's a mockery of what the Holy Ghost can do.....


If the Word was God (John 1:1) and if you believe the Bible is the Word, then you should worship the Bible, is it not??

Ironically, many Christians already do worship the Bible, but is it really God??

timewerx said:

And Christ (Word who became flesh) promised us the Holy Spirit...

And the Holy Spirit told us to read the Bible...yeah right...anyone can do it....

That's a mockery of what the Holy Ghost can do.....


If the Word was God (John 1:1) and if you believe the Bible is the Word, then you should worship the Bible, is it not??

Ironically, many Christians already do worship the Bible, but is it really God??

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You continue to miss what is right in front of you....

When John wrote that the NT did not exist. So what Word is John speaking about?

Get back to me when you can answer that question

BukiRob said:

When John wrote that the NT did not exist. So what Word is John speaking about?

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For me, that's the Holy Ghost and nothing else.

It's just the attitude of considering the Bible to be infallible places it in the same league as the infallible Word. But the Bible is not and they are not in the same league.

timewerx said:

For me, that's the Holy Ghost and nothing else.

It's just the attitude of considering the Bible to be infallible places it in the same league as the infallible Word. But the Bible is not and they are not in the same league.

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Nope. John is speaking of the Torah. The same Torah this is the Tree of Life....

BukiRob said:

Nope. John is speaking of the Torah. The same Torah this is the Tree of Life....

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The workshop manual of your car is also called a torah

Because a torah means instruction or teaching or written law. And a workshop manual of a car also has tons of instructions and laws in it, basically, don't do anything different from the instructions or you risk cracking the engine block or suffer the fiery wrath of God....

I'm pretty sure sure what John is saying is a different kind of Torah, one most Christians have no idea of.

timewerx said:

The workshop manual of your car is also called a torah

Because a torah means instruction or teaching or written law. And a workshop manual of a car also has tons of instructions and laws in it, basically, don't do anything different from the instructions or you risk cracking the engine block or suffer the fiery wrath of God....

I'm pretty sure sure what John is saying is a different kind of Torah, one most Christians have no idea of.

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No, you have no idea what you are talking about.

When Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life no once comes to the Father but by me.. he is saying that he IS the living breathing Torah. The one that was given at Sinai and the very same one that was in the Garden called the Tree of Life.

But since you believe that the scripture is evil you wouldnt know that.

BukiRob said:

No, you have no idea what you are talking about.

When Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life no once comes to the Father but by me.. he is saying that he IS the living breathing Torah. The one that was given at Sinai and the very same one that was in the Garden called the Tree of Life.

But since you believe that the scripture is evil you wouldnt know that.

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This Torah, little is found in the Bible.

Even the Torah of the Jews is not it either.

Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a true Christian.

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven


P.S.

I never said that 100% of the Bible is wrong. It simply has many ideas that don't agree, can't quite be reconciled under a clear context..... This is why Christianity has thousands of denominations....

I know this because I have with me the Holy Ghost who is above all things, including the Bible. She is the final authority, NOT the Bible.

timewerx said:

This Torah, little is found in the Bible.

Even the Torah of the Jews is not it either.

Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a true Christian.

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven


P.S.

I never said that 100% of the Bible is wrong. It simply has many ideas that don't agree, can't quite be reconciled under a clear context..... This is why Christianity has thousands of denominations....

I know this because I have with me the Holy Ghost who is above all things, including the Bible. She is the final authority, NOT the Bible.

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You are so very, very, very wrong brother.

The Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) Will indeed lead you in all truth.

Now, the very simple question is, what is truth and WHOSE truth?

Scripture tells us what is truth. You will not like the answer though.

Psalms 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.

So if indeed you follow the Spirit scripture tells you where the Spirit will lead you. To the one who says I do not need the Torah because the Spirit will lead me in all truth. True... the Spirit will LEAD you to Torah because Torah IS TRUTH!!!!

We are then told it is the way in which we should go... PS 25:12 Who is the man who fears the LORD? He will instruct him in the way the way he should choose.

Finally we are led to this... Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching is light; And reproofs for discipline are the way of life.


Then we find the Messiah saying this... I AM the way, the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father but by me.

Salvation has at no point in all of mankind's history saved anyone by keeping it (The Torah.) It was never purposed for that reason. Its purpose is twofold. One to show man HOW to love his fellow man and HOW to properly love G-d and 2 through the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin.

I find it a beautiful picture at the mount of transfiguration, when the disciples saw Moses and Elijah, which is no doubt a picture of The Law and The Prophets, but when they disappeared who remained? Jesus The Christ. He is the personification of both of them, which is ONE.
I personally believe these are also the two witnesses in the book of Rev.
God's two witnesses has always been His Word, The Law and The Prophets, which is none other than Jesus The Christ, The living breathing Word of God.

Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

BukiRob said:

the Spirit will LEAD you to Torah because Torah IS TRUTH!!!!.

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I was led by the Spirit into the Torah, but it is not the same you Christians and Jews read. It's not even a book.

I know the Bible very much, I used to be like you for 20 years. It's simply not it.

timewerx said:

I was led by the Spirit into the Torah, but it is not the same you Christians and Jews read. It's not even a book.

I know the Bible very much, I used to be like you for 20 years. It's simply not it.

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Well I am messianic... so...

timewerx said:

I was led by the Spirit into the Torah, but it is not the same you Christians and Jews read. It's not even a book.

I know the Bible very much, I used to be like you for 20 years. It's simply not it.

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You know, I see people on here like you... I cite scripture to support my revealed truth... you do not...

If your position can not and is not based upon scripture then you are grossly decieved.

The Messiah cited mountains of scripture and revealed the deeper meanings of the Torah, the spirit of the Torah when the Pharisee's kept the letter of said but failed in the heart of it....

You do neither and as such, have a foundation built on sand

timewerx said:

The workshop manual of your car is also called a torah

Because a torah means instruction or teaching or written law. And a workshop manual of a car also has tons of instructions and laws in it, basically, don't do anything different from the instructions or you risk cracking the engine block or suffer the fiery wrath of God....

I'm pretty sure sure what John is saying is a different kind of Torah, one most Christians have no idea of.

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No it is not. the workshop manual is not the word of G-d

Heb 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

BukiRob said:

Well I am messianic... so...

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A lot of non-messianic Christians share many beliefs as you do in our discussions.

I used to be Pentecostal Christian for 20 years. If I were to apply my Pentecostal beliefs, then we will be in agreement in most discussions in this thread. Many of my former Pentecostal brethren also thought the Torah of the Jews is God's Word.

I left the denomination because I care more for the truth than belonging to anything.

I would have joined a denomination if they were speaking the truth but it seems such thing don't exist.

timewerx said:

A lot of non-messianic Christians share many beliefs as you do in our discussions.

I used to be Pentecostal Christian for 20 years. If I were to apply my Pentecostal beliefs, then we will be in agreement in most discussions in this thread. Many of my former Pentecostal brethren also thought the Torah of the Jews is God's Word.

I left the denomination because I care more for the truth than belonging to anything.

I would have joined a denomination if they were speaking the truth but it seems such thing don't exist.

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I feel for you because you are deeply deceived. Messiah only did and spoke what the Father showed him and the father spoke of Torah. Messiah walked in complete obedience.

You are speaking a doctrine of HaSatan the Father of lies.

I have shown in in the WORD where the Spirit leads and this is to be in subjection to the will of the FATHER which is found in the Torah. If you refuse to see that well then, G-d will eventually show you the truth if your heart has not become too hardened.

The very idea that G-d can not protect his own words when scripture declares that it is infallible is a teaching out of the mouth of Satan.

Scripture states 2 Timothy 3:
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

You are resting everything you present as your doctrine on the idea that scripture lies and in essences you are calling G-d a liar