Boy Trained to Handle Hunting Rifle by Father Now in Trouble. Father Not

cow451 · Oct 7, 2015

It has been an interesting news week for people in East Tennessee. Maybe the idiot commissioner in Blount County can pray for the residents of Jefferson County.

According to police, on October 3 the killer, a fifth-grade student at White Pine Elementary School, went into his parent’s home and retrieved his father’s 12-gauge shotgun from an unlocked closet. He then used it to kill third-grader McKayla Dyer.

The boy, whose name was not released, was arrested and charged in juvenile court with first-degree murder. According to police, the boy’s father was not charged. His son had been hunting with his father and evidently knew how to handle and load the shotgun.

SepiaAndDust · Oct 7, 2015

Why would the boy's father be charged with anything?

Armoured · Oct 7, 2015

SepiaAndDust said:
Why would the boy's father be charged with anything?

Leaving ammunition and a weapon unsecured ~~around minors~~ seems pretty culpable to me.

SepiaAndDust · Oct 7, 2015

Armoured said:
Leaving ammunition and a weapon unsecured ~~around minors~~ seems pretty culpable to me.

Why? Most kids I know have their own guns by age 12.

Armoured · Oct 7, 2015

SepiaAndDust said:
Why? Most kids I know have their own guns by age 12.

And they're allowed to go off with them without adult supervision? Not cool, IMHO.

If you wouldn't let someone drive a car unsupervised, I think it's fair to say you shouldn't give them access to a loaded firearm unsupervised.

SepiaAndDust · Oct 7, 2015

Armoured said:
And they're allowed to go off with them without adult supervision? Not cool, IMHO.

If you wouldn't let someone drive a car unsupervised, I think it's fair to say you shouldn't give them access to a loaded firearm unsupervised.

Maybe, maybe not, but there's nothing currently illegal about teaching kids how to use a gun.

Armoured · Oct 7, 2015

SepiaAndDust said:
Maybe, maybe not, but there's nothing currently illegal about teaching kids how to use a gun.

Of course not. I don't think anyone suggested there was, or should be, did they? I learned to shoot a .22 when I was about 9. But I was fully supervised while doing so, and the weapons were locked up and the ammunition stored separately afterwards.

SepiaAndDust · Oct 7, 2015

Armoured said:
Of course not. I don't think anyone suggested there was, or should be, did they?

That's how I read the thread title. Maybe I was mistaken.

Armoured · Oct 7, 2015

SepiaAndDust said:
That's how I read the thread title. Maybe I was mistaken.

Well, maybe I was, too. But like I say, it's the leaving the firearm and ammunition unsecured I think is culpable, not the training.

Crowns&Laurels · Oct 7, 2015

SepiaAndDust said:
Why would the boy's father be charged with anything?

Exactly.
Are we at the point now where we're scathing parents for teaching their children how to use a rifle?

I learned to use a rifle, a shotgun, and a magnum before I was thirteen years old. We used to shoot them off in the woods for fun and go hunting.
This is something that people have done since guns were first invented. It's not those type of people that are the one's who are crazy, it's those shunning it now that are.

There's no justification to charge the father with anything. The child will get 'juvenile life' and be out before he is 21- they aren't going to try a 5th grader as an adult.

OldWiseGuy · Oct 7, 2015

If this boy had bullied this little girl before as is reported he should probably be put to death when he reaches 18. This was as malicious a crime as I have ever heard of. There is no hope of rehabilitation of a person so evil.

Crowns&Laurels · Oct 7, 2015

OldWiseGuy said:
If this boy had bullied this little girl before as is reported he should probably be put to death when he reaches 18. This was as malicious a crime as I have ever heard of. There is no hope of rehabilitation of a person so evil.

Are you serious?
He's a fifth grade kid. If he were just several years younger, they wouldn't even be able to charge him with anything.

What this is, is a case of a confused, angry child who has yet to know the consequences of such actions. This is exactly why we do not treat people that young as we do adults for crimes.

cow451 · Oct 7, 2015

Crowns&Laurels said:
Exactly.
Are we at the point now where we're scathing parents for teaching their children how to use a rifle?

I learned to use a rifle, a shotgun, and a magnum before I was thirteen years old. We used to shoot them off in the woods for fun and go hunting.
This is something that people have done since guns were first invented. It's not those type of people that are the one's who are crazy, it's those shunning it now that are.

There's no justification to charge the father with anything. The child will get 'juvenile life' and be out before he is 21- they aren't going to try a 5th grader as an adult.

A firearm is a deadly instrument, potentially. If I, as a parent, do not take reasonable precautions, then I should have some accountability for neglecting to take reasonable care. The parent did not err in teaching his son about using a firearm. He erred in not keeping the weapon properly secured. An 11-year-old is not an adult and cannot be expected to act like one. Telling little Johnny "not to touch the gun if I'm not there" is insufficient.

Just because I didn't mean for my kid to do something bad with my gun doesn't relieve me of the burden of accountability for what I had control over.

Crowns&Laurels · Oct 7, 2015

cow451 said:
A firearm is a deadly instrument, potentially. If I, as a parent, do not take reasonable precautions, then I should have some accountability for neglecting to take reasonable care. The parent did not err in teaching his son about using a firearm. He erred in not keeping the weapon properly secured. An 11-year-old is not an adult and cannot be expected to act like one. Telling little Johnny "not to touch the gun if I'm not there" is insufficient.

Just because I didn't mean for my kid to do something bad with my gun doesn't relieve me of the burden of accountability for what I had control over.

But then lets suppose a child finds a way to obtain the firearm nonetheless. Or lets say a parent leaves a gun unattended while he goes outside, to return and see it missing.
You can't police such things and expect that the parent should pay, which would be pushed if we got to some point where the parent has to be legally inquired upon on such.
Isn't it punishment enough that the parent has to live with what happened?

There is such a thing as tragedy in which blame can only go but so far.

OldWiseGuy · Oct 7, 2015

Crowns&Laurels said:
Are you serious?
He's a fifth grade kid. If he were just several years younger, they wouldn't even be able to charge him with anything.

What this is, is a case of a confused, angry child who has yet to know the consequences of such actions. This is exactly why we do not treat people that young as we do adults for crimes.

If this kid has killed animals with a gun he knew exactly what the consequences of his actions would be. What he didn't know was the broader tragedy he would cause by this action, but this is also characteristic of adult actions as well.

nightflight · Oct 7, 2015

whatbogsends · Oct 7, 2015

Crowns&Laurels said:
Are you serious?
He's a fifth grade kid. If he were just several years younger, they wouldn't even be able to charge him with anything.

What this is, is a case of a confused, angry child who has yet to know the consequences of such actions. This is exactly why we do not treat people that young as we do adults for crimes.

Unless they've actually committed no crime, but waving a gun which looked real on a playground, in which case, we simply have the police roll up and shoot them without warning. RIP Tamir Rice.

cow451 · Oct 7, 2015

Crowns&Laurels said:
But then lets suppose a child finds a way to obtain the firearm nonetheless. Or lets say a parent leaves a gun unattended while he goes outside, to return and see it missing.
You can't police such things and expect that the parent should pay, which would be pushed if we got to some point where the parent has to be legally inquired upon on such.

Negligence remains negligence. The gun owner is responsible for securing it. Had it been reasonably secured, I would not hold the parent to blame as he would've been taking reasonable precaution.

Isn't it punishment enough that the parent has to live with what happened?

Which parent????????? The kid that pulled the trigger or the dead kid's parent?

There is such a thing as tragedy in which blame can only go but so far.

Interesting that such things are always "just a tragedy" and gun owners get a pass.

Crowns&Laurels · Oct 7, 2015

cow451 said:
Interesting that such things are always "just a tragedy" and gun owners get a pass.

There was a kid who took a car out joyriding. Would you have blamed his guardian if he had steam rolled somebody?

Of course not, because a car isn't a gun, and the only reason you're even trying to have some loaded opinion on the matter is because it's gun related.

cow451 · Oct 7, 2015

Crowns&Laurels said:
There was a kid who took a car out joyriding. Would you have blamed his guardian if he had steam rolled somebody?

Do you know who would've paid for the expenses incurred by the steamrollee? The vehicle owner. Basic liability. Do you know who is going to pay for the medical expense and burial of the dead girl? The dead girl's family.

Of course not, because a car isn't a gun, and the only reason you're even trying to have some loaded opinion on the matter is because it's gun related.

Simple culpability/accountability/responsibility. Gun owners get a free pass when their unsecured weapons are misused, resulting in injuries or death.

Boy Trained to Handle Hunting Rifle by Father Now in Trouble. Father Not

Should adults be held accountable for keeping firearms away from minors?

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