There is grandeur in this view of life

joshua 1 9 · Oct 6, 2015

jayem said:
Do you think there was night and day, or water, or grasses and trees before there was the sun?

I just go with science and I have full confidence that the Bible agrees with what science shows us regarding this. When you read the Bible it is very important to know the perspective or the vantage point. Regarding your question the Bible is talking about the firmament or what we call the atmosphere. This has to do with the green house effect and global warming. I do not get into OEC very much to give a lot of detail. I more study the day age theory where a day in Genesis is 1000 years. So Genesis begins at the end of the last ice age around 13,000 years ago. One creation theory is just as true as the other. Darby is just as true as Ussher because of their perspective and what they are looking at. Ryrie and Scofield Bible commentary mostly support Darby as they are all dispensationalists. There are different layers to the Bible so for me one creation theory is just as valid as another. We know that around 13,000 years ago there was a extinction followed by a re-population, or population explosion or an evolutionary radiation. They have many different names for what was going on at the time. Some key words to look at here is: "the earth was without form, and void". Also it is interesting that the translates used the word replenish: "replenish the earth". Which clearly suggests there was something here before that needed replenished. Jeremiah 4:23 also talks about: "I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone." From the prophets view Israel was like the earth we read about in Genesis.

We are dealing with 31 verses here that were written 3500 years ago. If you go to the various libraries at the universities I am sure you would find hundreds of thousands of books that give you more detail about what we read about in those 31 verses. Yet the Bible remains consistent and true and those hundreds of thousands of science books need constant updating and revision. If you think there is a conflict between those 31 verses and science then your wrong. There is no conflict at all.

joshua 1 9 · Oct 6, 2015

Loudmouth said:
Grasses don't appear in the fossil record until after the dinosaurs are well established.

They atmosphere & climate was very different back at the time of Pangaea and the dinosaurs. That is why there were only a few very small mammals living at the time.

Loudmouth · Oct 6, 2015

joshua 1 9 said:
They atmosphere & climate was very different back at the time of Pangaea and the dinosaurs. That is why there were only a few very small mammals living at the time.

What about the atmosphere and climate prevented the existence of large mammals?

joshua 1 9 · Oct 6, 2015

Loudmouth said:
What about the atmosphere and climate prevented the existence of large mammals?

We can get a part of the story when we look at Crocodilians. We see that they are semi-aquatic creatures and spend most of their time in the water. The dinosaurs needed a very warm wet climate. The sky was actually red at the time not blue as we find it today. Actually I am no expert on the evolution of mammals, you may want to check with someone that knows more about it. From a creationist view point the dinosaurs were beginning to devour each other and that is why God destroyed Pangaea and this was the beginning of plate technotics and continental drift. Many of the dinosaurs from that period ended up in the mountains from New Mexico all the way up to Wyoming. In some places there is an abundance of them showing that they went through an extinction.
(Morrison Formation)

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/11664

Astrophile · Oct 6, 2015

juvenissun said:
So, are you saying that the material on the earth is NOT older than 4.5 b.y. ?

No, of course not. The Earth was made out of pre-existing material, but its existence as a separate planet began about 4.54 billion years ago.

Where did the material come from? And how old was it?

Most of the material that the Earth is currently made of (iron, silicon, oxygen, sodium, magnesium, aluminium, potassium, calcium, carbon, nitrogen etc.) was made by nuclear reactions in stars between about 4.57 and 13.2 billion years ago. The Earth's hydrogen was made in the Big Bang, 13.8 billion years ago.

Loudmouth · Oct 6, 2015

joshua 1 9 said:
We can get a part of the story when we look at Crocodilians. We see that they are semi-aquatic creatures and spend most of their time in the water. The dinosaurs needed a very warm wet climate. The sky was actually red at the time not blue as we find it today.

Why would a warm and wet climate prevent the existence of large mammals?

From a creationist view point the dinosaurs were beginning to devour each other and that is why God destroyed Pangaea and this was the beginning of plate technotics and continental drift. Many of the dinosaurs from that period ended up in the mountains from New Mexico all the way up to Wyoming. In some places there is an abundance of them showing that they went through an extinction.

I would much prefer to see the evidence rather than a list of beliefs.

joshua 1 9 · Oct 6, 2015

Loudmouth said:
Why would a warm and wet climate prevent the existence of large mammals?

Your the expert on evolution. You tell me why the dinosaurs went extinct and the we see a population explosion among the mammals.

I would much prefer to see the evidence rather than a list of beliefs.

That is fine. We believe we know why the dinosaurs went extinct. Perhaps that is of no interest to you. Even for some creationists what we read in the Bible is not that clear or conclusive. It was never God's plan for His creation to eat and devour so as to destroy itself. Gal 5 15 "But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another."

2014.12.Natural%2BHistory%2BMuseum015.jpg

joshua 1 9 · Oct 6, 2015

Dr GS Hurd said:
Did you enjoy reading
Cross, Frank Moore
1973 "Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel" Boston: Harvard University Press

Dahood, Mitchell
1965 "Psalms I, 1-50: Introduction, Translation and Notes" New York: Anchor Bible- Doubleday

Kramer, Samuel Noah
1972 "Sumerian Mythology: A study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C." OP 1961 New York: University of Pennsylvania Press/ Harper.

I have found the more recent scholars are a bit confused; they start with dismissing both Cross, and Dahood and then finish by supporting them. (They seem to ignore Kramer). What they are doing of course is to think that Cross, and Dahood actually held the opinions and conclusions that are attributed to them by later writers. Another (academic) generation passes and the newbies only read the critics and not the original scholarship.

This is not to mean that the new studies are not serious contributions. I particularly have enjoyed the more recent work on the Ugaritic texts that are more a foundation of the early Hebrew's religion than the Sumerian, or Babylonian epics. Have you read;

Pardee, Dennis
2002 Writings from the Ancient World Vol. 10: Ritual and Cult at Ugarit Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature

Parker, Simon B. (Editor)
1997 Ugarit Narrative Poetry Translated by Mark S. Smith, Simon B. Parker, Edward L Greenstein, Theodore J. Lewis, David Marcus, Vol. 9 Writings from the Ancient World. Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature

Of all the younger writers, I am particularly fond of Mark Smith;

2002 “The Early History of God 2nd ed.” Grand Rapids: Wm B Eerdmans Publishing

2003 “The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts” Oxford University Press.

In High School our Text book was written by James Henry Breasted. He popularized the term "Fertile Crescent" to describe the archaeologically important area including parts of present-day Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine and Israel. I like to study on the origins of agriculture from people like Mark Nathan Cohen.

Loudmouth · Oct 6, 2015

joshua 1 9 said:
Your the expert on evolution. You tell me why the dinosaurs went extinct and the we see a population explosion among the mammals.

The dinosaurs went extinct at the K/T boundary which is marked by supervolcanism that produced the Deccan traps and a massive meteor impact that produced the Chicxulub crater in Mexico. The combination of these two ecological disasters is what most people point to as the cause of the extinction event.

The extinction even removed dinosaur species from the large herbivore and large carnivore niches. Mammals were able to evolve to fill these open niches.

That is fine. We believe we know why the dinosaurs went extinct. Perhaps that is of no interest to you. Even for some creationists what we read in the Bible is not that clear or conclusive. It was never God's plan for His creation to eat and devour so as to destroy itself. Gal 5 15 "But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another."

What really happened is of interest to me.

joshua 1 9 · Oct 6, 2015

Loudmouth said:
The dinosaurs went extinct at the K/T boundary which is marked by supervolcanism that produced the Deccan traps and a massive meteor impact that produced the Chicxulub crater in Mexico. The combination of these two ecological disasters is what most people point to as the cause of the extinction event.

The extinction even removed dinosaur species from the large herbivore and large carnivore niches. Mammals were able to evolve to fill these open niches.

What really happened is of interest to me.

The Triassic–Jurassic extinction event marks the boundary between the Triassic and Jurassic periods, 201.3 million years ago.

The T/J extinction event is phase one, the K/T is phase three of the break up of Pangea.

Loudmouth · Oct 6, 2015

joshua 1 9 said:
The Triassic–Jurassic extinction event marks the boundary between the Triassic and Jurassic periods, 201.3 million years ago.

The T/J extinction event is phase one, the K/T is phase three of the break up of Pangea.

The K/T boundary is marked by an iridium layer and massive layers of tektites. Neither of these are produced by continental drift. These are caused by meteor impacts. The 75 km wide crater in Mexico was not caused by continental drift.

joshua 1 9 · Oct 6, 2015

Loudmouth said:
The K/T boundary is marked by an iridium layer and massive layers of tektites. Neither of these are produced by continental drift. These are caused by meteor impacts. The 75 km wide crater in Mexico was not caused by continental drift.

First Pangea split north and south, then later on at about the time of the K/T boundary there was a split east and west of Laurasia. So the first split created Laurasia and Gondwana, then the second split was Gondwana and the third split was Laurasia about the time of the K/T boundary. Perhaps you see no connection between one and the other but there was. This was also about the time of a global freeze. So you have three different things going on at about the same time. The continent that the dinosaurs were sitting on split in half and this was followed by an ice age.

This evidence shows that many of the species' extinctions at this time related to climate and productivity changes even without the addition of an extraterrestrial impact.

As Isaiah says: "for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake."

Moses says: "fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

Loudmouth · Oct 6, 2015

joshua 1 9 said:
First Pangea split north and south, then later on at about the time of the K/T boundary there was a split east and west of Laurasia. So the first split created Laurasia and Gondwana, then the second split was Gondwana and the third split was Laurasia about the time of the K/T boundary. Perhaps you see no connection between one and the other but there was. This was also about the time of a global freeze. So you have three different things going on at about the same time. The continent that the dinosaurs were sitting on split in half and this was followed by an ice age.

You see no connection between the massive meteor impact and the extinction event?

joshua 1 9 · Oct 6, 2015

Loudmouth said:
You see no connection between the massive meteor impact and the extinction event?

Such an impact would cause enormous tidal waves, and evidence of just such waves at about that time has been found all around the Gulf. It could have created months of darkness and cooler temperatures globally. There would have been concentrated nitric acid rains worldwide. Sulfuric acid aerosols may have cooled Earth for years. "1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." Still a lot of the extinctions had already taken place.

NASA Says Asteroid Apophis Impact In 2036 Unlikely, But Will Be Extremely Close

Loudmouth · Oct 6, 2015

joshua 1 9 said:
Such an impact would cause enormous tidal waves, and evidence of just such waves at about that time has been found all around the Gulf. It could have created months of darkness and cooler temperatures globally. There would have been concentrated nitric acid rains worldwide. Sulfuric acid aerosols may have cooled Earth for years. "1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

The Earth definitely had form at that time.

Do you still see no connection between this impact and the sudden extinction of so many species, not just dinosaurs?

joshua 1 9 · Oct 6, 2015

Loudmouth said:
The Earth definitely had form at that time.

Do you still see no connection between this impact and the sudden extinction of so many species, not just dinosaurs?

Extinctions are due to extreme climate changes. It is difficult for me to see a meter as the cause of extreme climate change, but I don't know anything about it. So the changes could have been caused by a meter. Evolution is the result of changes in the climate. If the earth were stable there would be no need for the species to evolve and change. That is why the Vatican promotes their fine tuning theory of evolution.

Loudmouth · Oct 6, 2015

joshua 1 9 said:
Extinctions are due to extreme climate changes. It is difficult for me to see a meter as the cause of extreme climate change, but I don't know anything about it.

Dust, debris, and smoke produced by the impact would block sunlight for long periods of time. That is what causes the extreme climate change.

Evolution is the result of changes in the climate.

Evolution can occur without climate change.

If the earth were stable there would be no need for the species to evolve and change. That is why the Vatican promotes their fine tuning theory of evolution.

Most fine tuning arguments focus on the Big Bang, not Earth's climate.

juvenissun · Oct 7, 2015

Astrophile said:
No, of course not. The Earth was made out of pre-existing material, but its existence as a separate planet began about 4.54 billion years ago.

Most of the material that the Earth is currently made of (iron, silicon, oxygen, sodium, magnesium, aluminium, potassium, calcium, carbon, nitrogen etc.) was made by nuclear reactions in stars between about 4.57 and 13.2 billion years ago. The Earth's hydrogen was made in the Big Bang, 13.8 billion years ago.

If so, what is wrong if we say that the earth is 14 b.y. old?

Oafman · Oct 7, 2015

Perhaps Darwin believed that the process was started by a creator. My understanding was he ultimately rejected religion but I'm not sure he ever rejected deism.

Or maybe he just wanted to soften the blow to religious readers, knowing how much his book would upset them. Or maybe it was pressure from publishers or colleagues.

joshua 1 9 · Oct 7, 2015

Loudmouth said:
Dust, debris, and smoke produced by the impact would block sunlight for long periods of time. That is what causes the extreme climate change.

That of course confirms what Moses tell us in Genesis when we read: "darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Most fine tuning arguments focus on the Big Bang, not Earth's climate.

The Big Bang started out as a religious Kubbalism belief around 1,000 years ago. They claim the teaching comes from three revelations given to Adam, Abraham and Moses. Said to be a part of the oral tradition. Max Planck had to undergo a Nazi investigation for any connection between his “Quantum mysticism” and Hebrew beliefs. They accused Planck of being “one-sixth Jewish.” His son Erwin was executed by the regime in 1945 accused of participating in one of many attempts to assassinate Hitler.

Even now they are starting to say Darwin's theory started out as a ancient Kubbalist belief:
http://www.kabbalah.info/eng/content/view/frame/97305?/eng/content/view/full/97305&main

There is grandeur in this view of life

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... and God saw that it was good.

Try telling that to these bog brained murphys

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