Full Preterism On The Last Trumpet

parousia70

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EASY!

Rev. 19:

Hmmm...nothing about 1K years there as you claimed there was. Nope. not one word.

If you knew the bible better, you woulda known this already. I suggest you get rid of your Alcazar material and concentrate on GOD'S word insteada Alcazar's word.

Not sure who this Alcazar is, but I do know that when you make a statement, are asked to support it with scripture, and the scripture you use mentions nothing supporting the statement you made, it's a tell tale sign exposing the weakness of your view scripturally.

I suppose if you knew the Bible better, you'd have known not to use Revelation 19:15 to support your Physical reign of Christ for 1000 years theory.
 
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parousia70

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Alcazar was the daddy of your preterism hooey.

So you're saying this Alcazar is to me what Margaret MacDonald is to you?

And I WAS a chapter behind.

Some friendly advice, you might want to back off from your desire to toss out those "If you knew scripture better" accusations when you yourself can't seem quote the passages you believe support your view the first time.

Rev. 20 spells out the thousand years. And Rev. 19, along with Matt. 24 & Luke 21 spell out the physical return of Jesus to reign upon the earth.

Luke 21:20-22
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

You do realize this already happened don't you?
 
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robycop3

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So you're saying this Alcazar is to me what Margaret MacDonald is to you?



Some friendly advice, you might want to back off from your desire to toss out those "If you knew scripture better" accusations when you yourself can't seem quote the passages you believe support your view the first time.



Luke 21:20-22
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

You do realize this already happened don't you?
Yes, the destruction of J & the temple have happened, but there's NOT been any 'beast', any marka the beast, any great trib, and certainly no visible, physical return of Jesus in great power & glory, seen by all.
 
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parousia70

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John himself infallibly claimed the tribulation was underway and he was a partner in it at the time he was writing the revelation.

Given the choice of which polar opposite teaching to believe, yours or Johns, I'm going to side with John. every time.
 
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robycop3

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John himself infallibly claimed the tribulation was underway and he was a partner in it at the time he was writing the revelation.

Given the choice of which polar opposite teaching to believe, yours or Johns, I'm going to side with John. every time.

He made no such claim & you know it.
 
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parousia70

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He made no such claim & you know it.
Oh Boy.

Revelation 1:9-11

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

As you can plainly see, John above makes the claim that not only is THE tribulation underway at the time of his writing, but he is also heralding the then present arrival of The day of the Lord. (The Lord's Day)

Don't ya just love scripture?
 
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Justme

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Oh Boy.

Revelation 1:9-11

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

As you can plainly see, John above makes the claim that not only is THE tribulation underway at the time of his writing, but he is also heralding the then present arrival of The day of the Lord. (The Lord's Day)

Don't ya just love scripture?

It is all so easy, isn't it?
Good response!

Justme
 
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robycop3

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Oh Boy.

Revelation 1:9-11

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

As you can plainly see, John above makes the claim that not only is THE tribulation underway at the time of his writing, but he is also heralding the then present arrival of The day of the Lord. (The Lord's Day)

Don't ya just love scripture?

Sorry, but that wasn't the GREAT trib. And the "Lord's day" was the Sabbath.

Proof?

EASY!

Jesus DID NOT return IMMEDIATELY after that time, as He said He would in Matt. 24:29-30.

Yes, I love Scripture, FREE OF SILLY MAN-MADE PRIVATE INTEROS.
 
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parousia70

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Sorry, but that wasn't the GREAT trib.

Yes it was.
As John plainly says, it was then THE tribulation of Jesus Christ.
Proof? Easy:

But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. Luke 21:23

AD 66-70 was Israel's Great Tribulation (Which Luke calls "Great Distress upon the land and wrath upon this people")


And the "Lord's day" was the Sabbath.

Rather, The Day of the Lord = The Lord's Day
Those terms are interchangeable in scripture, just like these scriptural terms are interchangeable and mean EXACTLY the same thing:
The Wrath of the Lord = The Lords Wrath
The Grace of the Lord = The Lord's Grace
The Vengeance of the Lord = The Lord's Vengeance.

And Yes also,
The Day of the Lord = The Lord's Day.

You must do major gymnastics to ignore this plain scriptural truth.
You are using your previously held view to govern your interpretation of scripture instead of allowing plain scripture to govern your view.

Yes, I love Scripture, FREE OF SILLY MAN-MADE PRIVATE INTEROS.


Which is why scripture refutes your silly man made private interpretations.
 
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Dave Watchman

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So just scrolling down this thread and trying to remain as impartial as possible, I'm not swayed at all toward the preterist position.

And I've only been at this since Jan. 2012 so I'm sway able.

I watched the video, there were too many flaws. They mixed up the trumpets.

John, Peter, Paul and the early Christians were in tribulation for sure. Many of them died as martyrs.

But when John saw the vision of the numberless multitude in Revelation 7 from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne. The elder told him:

“These are they who have come out of the great tribulation;
they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb".​

This just doesn't sound like a description of the 1st century converts during their tribulation.

I tend to favor the robycop3 view, but that's just me.
 
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parousia70

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So just scrolling down this thread and trying to remain as impartial as possible, I'm not swayed at all toward the preterist position.

And I've only been at this since Jan. 2012 so I'm sway able.

I understand your trepidation.

For me it was the time statements that tipped the scales in favor of Preterism.

And the notion that "its Gods time not ours" just didn't hold water. God communicates to Man in our understanding. In every instance that God attaches a time limit to the fulfillment of prophesy, it is given to be understood by how time relates to man, not how it relates to God.

God told Noah "In 7 days I will make it rain 40 Days and 40 Nights"

Noah, being a Human trapped in time, should he apply the Futurist calculation of 2 Peter 3 and understand that God meant "In 7000 years I'll make it rain 40,000 years?
Nobody would suggest that would they?

And time statements aren't all about "soon, shortly, near, at hand," etc...

Revelation 3:3, for example, is a CONCRETE time statement that AFFIXES the Coming of Christ as a thief to the 1st Century:

3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Audience Relevance. Audience Relevance. Audience Relevance!!

Who was He speaking to?
First Century Christians of the Church of Sardis.
Actual air breathing, Blood pumping human beings alive in the 1st century and in rev 3:3 The Glorified Jesus from heaven PROMISES his Thief's coming would BEFALL THEM.

Jesus can be trusted to do what He promises can he not?

Another one is in 2 Thessalonians 1
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, here we Have God PROMISING the 1st century Thessalonians REST from their persecution and the repayment of their persecutors with Tribulation VIA Christ's Coming to them.

Are those 1st century Thessalonians still suffering persecution TODAY at the hands of those who were troubling them?
No?
Then Christ MUST have come TO THEM in the way Paul promised, for that was the ONLY mechanism that was going to end their persecutions. Not time passing, not their Death.

The Implication was inescapable for this Bible Believing Christian.

One last example or this post I'll offer is the Parable of the wicked Vinedressers, Matthew 21: 33-44

33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killedhim.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease hisvineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.


Just as they understood, The Owner of the Vineyard, the Chief Cornerstone, Came to them and destroyed them, ground then to powder, and took the Kingdom from them in 70AD.

But again, I understand your trepidation.

Thankfully, understanding and accepting the CORRECT eschatology is not a requirement for Salvation.
 
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robycop3

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Yes it was.
As John plainly says, it was then THE tribulation of Jesus Christ.
Proof? Easy:

But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. Luke 21:23

AD 66-70 was Israel's Great Tribulation (Which Luke calls "Great Distress upon the land and wrath upon this people")

No, it was only the prophesied destruction of Jerusalem & the temple. Jesus said the great trib would be the greatest time of trouble of all time & if it weren't cut short, no one would survive. There have been many greater times of trouble than that siege, including the nazi holocaust, which included others besides Jews.




Rather, The Day of the Lord = The Lord's Day
Those terms are interchangeable in scripture, just like these scriptural terms are interchangeable and mean EXACTLY the same thing:
The Wrath of the Lord = The Lords Wrath
The Grace of the Lord = The Lord's Grace
The Vengeance of the Lord = The Lord's Vengeance.

And Yes also,
The Day of the Lord = The Lord's Day.

You must do major gymnastics to ignore this plain scriptural truth.
You are using your previously held view to govern your interpretation of scripture instead of allowing plain scripture to govern your view.

No, Jesus didn't return on that day, nor did He return after Jerusalem was destroyed. Remember Matthew 24:29-30.




Which is why scripture refutes your silly man made private interpretations.

No, the silly man-made private interps are those of the prets. History and reality prove the preterist guesswork wrong. There's been:

No great world-ruling 'beast'.
NO "abomination of desolation".
NO mark of the beast.
NO physical, visible return of Jesus.

You CANNOT prove otherwise.

"HISTORY AND REALITY trump all preterist assertions."
 
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parousia70

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No, it was only the prophesied destruction of Jerusalem & the temple. Jesus said the great trib would be the greatest time of trouble of all time & if it weren't cut short, no one would survive.
Time for some education.

AD 66-70 was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5).

Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

Did you catch that Roby??

Due to the COVENENTAL SIGNIFICANCE of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) CAN NEVER BE REPEATED.

--THEREFORE--

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

Did you get that Roby??

THERE IS NO EQUAL to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matt 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).

Roby, once again, until you provide a lucid refutation of the above, you remain hopelessly unsubstantiated in your Hollywood fantasyland interpretation of the great tribulation.

It remains high time time you accept the BIBLICAL interpretation, and reject the inventions of men.


There have been many greater times of trouble than that siege, including the nazi holocaust, which included others besides Jews.

By what measure? Body Count, or actual "tribulation"?

If 20 people are killed instantly in an explosion and 5 people are slowly tortured to death over a period of weeks, which group suffered greater tribulation?

Body count is no way to measure the level of tribulation.

Jewish Women Killed and ate their own babies to save them from the tribulation suffered in the Roman Jewish War of AD 66-70.

Never heard one story of a Jewish woman killing and eating her own baby in WWII.
Can you point me to any?

The fact is, there is no equal to the level of devastation experienced by millions of messiah rejecting jews as they were violently ex-communicated out of covenant with God in Israel's Great Tribulation of AD 66-70

Do to the covenental significance of that event, it can never be repeated, equaled or surpassed. Hense the "nor ever shall be"...

No, Jesus didn't return on that day, nor did He return after Jerusalem was destroyed. Remember Matthew 24:29-30.
Time for some more education

Matthew 24:29-30
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

You do realize this language is used over and over int he OT to describe past Judgments of God upon individual nations at the hand of Human armies do you not?..

In AD 67-70, coincident with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple at the end of the Old Covenant age, Jesus "came" in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's old testament comings. The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):



[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)



These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20). Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated inMatthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).


"HISTORY AND REALITY trump all preterist assertions."

Now for a History Lesson:
I would recommend Josephus' First hand account titled: War of the Jews.

Significant exerpts of which can be found HERE

Josephus records atrocities such as Jewish Women killing, roasting and eating their own babys (As I mentioned before, I do not remember hearing any account of Jewish women roasting and eating their own children in the Nazi holocaust. Perhaps they did not suffer as Great of a Tribulation as did their predecessors of 66-70AD), also He records the passing of many "signs" prior to Jerusalems destruction.

Of those "signs" Josephus writes:
Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend, nor give credit, to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation; but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also, before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eight day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day-time; which light lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskilful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.

At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner, [court of the temple,] which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now, those that kept watch in the temple came thereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared, that this signal forshewed the desolation that was coming upon them.

Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one-and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."
(Book VI, Chapter 5, Section 3)

The Historian Tacitus independantly confirms these "angelic armies":
"In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure" (Tacitus, Histories, v. 13).

As you can plainly see, History records many supernatural events "literally" ocourring at the destruction of Jerusalem as well. Chariots and soldiers running amongst the clouds, Superhuman voices, signs in the stars, a great light shining in the middle of the night for 30 minutes on the holy of holies, illuminating it like daytime, Jewish History even records that the Glory cloud of Yahweh, departing from the temple and resting on the mount of olives for the entire 3.5 years of the war, before disapearing alltogether.

I am unclear by what criteria one can assert with any certainty that these "Chariots" were not Christ's angelic army, and that Christ himself was not personally present in the "Light" that shown on the temple, and that the voices heard exclaiming "let us depart" were not Christ and the dead saints He resurrected out of Hades.

If these supernatural events, that were recorded in history as having LITERALLY ocourred at the destruction of Jerusalem, are not to be understood as The Lord of the Vinyard personally returning to miserably destroy those wicked husbandmen as He promised them He would do, then what is your explaination of them?
 
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robycop3

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First...When Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed, it was in fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy of such, and also the fulfillment of all that'd been written in the OT against the Jews for their deliberate sins & corrupt worship, also as Jesus said. It was NOT the great trib, which'll be worldwide. And it was NOT cut short, as Jesus said the great trib would be...the Romans TRIUMPHED, returning to Rome in triumph.

Nor did Jesus return immediately after J was destroyed, as He said He would, IMMEDIATELY after the great trib. Again, history and reality prove the pret garbage wrong.

Next, there have been MANY tribs greater than the siege of J. In the holocaust, Jews' babies were taken from them soon as they were born, and dead bodies were disposed of before they could be eaten. And the holocaust lasted somewhat longer than the siege of J. You've surely heard of the various atrocities committed against the Jews & other nazi captives such as Russians, Gypsies, Polish, Czechs, etc. Not to mention the Japanese atrocities against the Chinese, Filipinos, etc. during WW2. And that's just some MODERN tribs of man against man! No need to mention all the natural disasters that've ravaged mankind longer and worse than the Jerusalem siege! Once more, history and reality prove preterism false.

Of the Jews, Tacitus wrote only what'd been told to him, with no way to check its veracity. He was mainly concerned with Roman history, considering Jews as less than dogs. (And note Tacitus mentioned "the gods", not GOD.)

As for Josephus, he was very careful to not write one bad word against the Flavius family, which had adopted him, and could "un-adopt" him in a trice. And notice that while there were a great many survivors (and participants) of the sack of jerusalem who mentioned it in writings, only Josephus mentioned any supernatural events. Had these occurred, many Romans as well as many more jews, woulda seen them & chronicled them. So again, this is another preterist stretch.

And again, the FACT that those prophecies of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse that HAVE already cometa pass have done so LITERALLY. There's simply NO valid reason to try to consign the rest of Jesus' discourse to the realm of symbolism/allegory, or consign the events to the "spirit world".

"HISTORY AND REALITY trump all preterist assertions."
 
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parousia70

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there have been MANY tribs greater than the siege of J.
None carried the covenental significance of Ad 66-70. Not even one matches it. No future tribulation can match or surpass it either.

You are also ignoring, once again, the precedented usage of the language "Ever was nor ever shall be"

Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.

You are making a choice to ignore this set precedent in favor of a hyper literal hollywood style interpretation that was completely foreign to Jesus the Apostles.

Conversely, we preterists recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hebraic idiom understood and used by Christ and the apostles meaning "very great" or "very much." Our Lord was simply saying in Matthew 24:21 that there would be very great tribulation. St. Luke's account of this great tribulation reads as follows:
These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (Luke 21:22-23)

Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matt 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).

And again, the FACT that those prophecies of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse that HAVE already cometa pass have done so LITERALLY. There's simply NO valid reason to try to consign the rest of Jesus' discourse to the realm of symbolism/allegory, or consign the events to the "spirit world".

You are the one who needs to demonstrate why you yourself consign the OT judgement language such as "God Rides a Swift cloud" (Is 19:1-2) and was "seen by the eyes of all nations" (Is 52:10) to symbolism and allegory, yet arbitrarily apply a polar opposite literal interpretation to the synonymous NT language of "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see" (Matt 24) when you have absolutely ZERO biblical instruction to do so.

Again, your Hyper Literal interpretation that throws out the set precedent would be unrecognizable to Jesus and the Apostles.

Scriptural precedent trumps your hyper literal Hollywood style assertions.
 
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Justme

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None carried the covenental significance of Ad 66-70. Not even one matches it. No future tribulation can match or surpass it either.

You are also ignoring, once again, the precedented usage of the language "Ever was nor ever shall be"

Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.

You are making a choice to ignore this set precedent in favor of a hyper literal hollywood style interpretation that was completely foreign to Jesus the Apostles.

Conversely, we preterists recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hebraic idiom understood and used by Christ and the apostles meaning "very great" or "very much." Our Lord was simply saying in Matthew 24:21 that there would be very great tribulation. St. Luke's account of this great tribulation reads as follows:
These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (Luke 21:22-23)

Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matt 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).



You are the one who needs to demonstrate why you yourself consign the OT judgement language such as "God Rides a Swift cloud" (Is 19:1-2) and was "seen by the eyes of all nations" (Is 52:10) to symbolism and allegory, yet arbitrarily apply a polar opposite literal interpretation to the synonymous NT language of "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see" (Matt 24) when you have absolutely ZERO biblical instruction to do so.

Again, your Hyper Literal interpretation that throws out the set precedent would be unrecognizable to Jesus and the Apostles.

Scriptural precedent trumps your hyper literal Hollywood style assertions.

Excellent and informative!
A quick addition to audience relevance is Mark 13:

Jesus is speaking and He says:

29 Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door.

This exhibits the same 'short time' issue you mentioned earlier and besides that Jesus has identified the YOU He was addressing in the conversation:

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately,
Justme
 
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robycop3

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No, these events have simply NOT YET OCCURRED. You CANNOT find them in history.

I could post a long and boring discourse on many prophesied events from Daniel, the Olivet Discourse, and the Revelation that have very-obviously NOT yet been fulfilled, but I believe the reader can see the MOST OBVIOUS of these...that JESUS HAS NOT YET RETURNED!

And Parousia 70 & Just Me completely skipped over the coming 'beast' and his empire, the mark of the beast, etc. etc. So, preterism, both full and partial, remain phony as a Ford Corvette!

"HISTORY AND REALITY trump all preterist assertions."
 
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parousia70

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Does Mark 13 say what I wrote or not? Does the bible say what Par 70 referred to, yes or no?

Justme

C'mon Justme, don't you know by now that folks like Roby believe the Bible had ZERO meaning or application to the people who first received it?...according to Roby, the people who Christ was DIRECTLY ADDRESSING have no business claiming HE was speaking TO them and FOR THEM...Folks Like Roby believe and assert that The Bible was USELESS to them, it was ONLY written FOR US 2000 years later... They believe and teach It was a worthless rag to it's original audience.
 
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