Pictures of Jesus.

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prodromos

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Did anyone test the painting to see if the area the bees stayed away from had a trace of peppermint or other mild bee repellant?
What possible reason would the beekeeper have for putting bee repellant on the icons?
 
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sculleywr

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I believe you are wrong.
Believe all you want. That doesn't erase the existence of Icons from Saint Luke of Christ and His mother, nor other First Century Icons discovered in first Century Churches.
 
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sculleywr

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What possible reason would the beekeeper have for putting bee repellant on the icons?
Especially on an image he is putting inside of his bee hive, which is a source of his livelihood. You're basically saying this guy was so interested in fabricating a miracle that he essentially endangered his income to make it happen. That's not exactly a rock solid theory
 
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Wgw

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I believe you are wrong.

Ha! You arent even going to try with some intellectual pretense of refuting my point? I am sure you could find plenty of faux-scholarly articles by atheist scoentists to back you up.
 
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Wgw

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Especially on an image he is putting inside of his bee hive, which is a source of his livelihood. You're basically saying this guy was so interested in fabricating a miracle that he essentially endangered his income to make it happen. That's not exactly a rock solid theory

I suppose the claim will next be forthcoming that our iconographers blend together special insect-repellant paints on our Lord and various saints.
 
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DamianWarS

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Actually we do in fact have iconographic tombs which figure prominently in the Good Friday - Holy Saturday - Paschal liturgical cycle. We also have bronze snakes on our Bishops crosiers. I am not sure these could be regarded as essential as opposed to part of the local liturgical traditions of the East, but we do have these items in case anyone asks, so that has the amusing effect of unwittingly bypassing your first argument. Orthodox liturgical accessorizing is actually quite epic: in the different Eastern rites one will find spears for piercing the bread to be consecrated in the Eucharist, metal stars placed atop the carefully prepared bread, a variety of different types of veils and corporals, in the Syriac rite, liturgical slippers; there exist in Ethiopia replicas of the ark of the covenant and the ten commandments which function in place of the Antimension of the Byzantine Rite or the Tablitho of the West Syriac. There are various paraments that cover the antimension or tablitho.mmThe Ethiopians have liturgical umbrellas. Then, there exist a fairly vast assortment of materials for use on various liturgical occasions, some of which are perishable.

One could spend an infinite amount of time and money documenting the vast array of acoutrements which exist, which is a reason why the Islamic destruction of Christian churches in Syria and Iraq is so tragic; these are not cookie cutter institutions but rather, individual parishes might have distinct liturgical heritage, and the hardware to support that heritage.

However you are quite wrong to accuse the Orthodox of being theatrical. Actually a huge amount of the vast arraybof liturgical hardware I just alluded to is never really seen by the laity; for example, Coptic priests keep the instruments used for handling the Eucharist out of sight in a linen bundle on the altar table and are reticent to discuss its content. The Byzantine Rite Liturgy of Preparation occurs in silence, behind the iconostasis. These liturgies are not ritual magic, but they are important and extremely solemn forms of prayer. The majority of what a parishioner sees and hears on a given Sunday is invariant.

Now, on the point of tradition being Tradition because we say it is, this is of course correct because the Orthodox Church is the Apostolic Faith. It is by all practical definitions both foolproof and error-proof. Such objections as yours have been raised before, and they have always been due to human error.*

* I will readily admit to paraphrasing HAL 9000 with a certain relish.
You are skirting over the issue that this is not biblical. You can have bronze snakes, tombs, arks, tablets or whatever kind of religious objects you can pull out of the bible. Glorifing these things and calling them essential forms of the church has no biblical basis. It is very biblical themed but it is highly irresponsible to use "spiritual sounding" things and claim they essentials to faith and is mishandling the gospel. Icons may be about to gospel but the gospel is not about icons.
 
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sculleywr

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You are skirting over the issue that this is not biblical. You can have bronze snakes, tombs, arks, tablets or whatever kind of religious objects you can pull out of the bible. Glorifing these things and calling them essential forms of the church has no biblical basis. It is very biblical themed but it is highly irresponsible to use "spiritual sounding" things and claim they essentials to faith and is mishandling the gospel. Icons may be about to gospel but the gospel is not about icons.
Neither does the electronic icon of the pastor projected on the screen. Nor does the use of electronics in worship. So let's do this, once you remove EVERYTHING and EVERY practice that isn't directly in the Scripture, we shall consider removing ours.

To be quite frank, why are you not liturgical in your worship? We know, for a fact, from the Scripture, that Liturgy was part of worship throughout the Old Testament. It was a direct command of God. And yet you, I will guarantee, are not liturgical as the Apostles would have been, since liturgy is the only form of worship the Apostles knew. Oh, and what about your incense? It was directly commanded by God, too.

So before you go talking about us stating that Iconography is essential to the faith even though it isn't in the Scriptures which were canonized by Icon-venerating Saints of the very Church you accuse, consider two things:

1. Icons were considered essential to faith by the Jews in Christ's time and in the time of the apostles. And yet they didn't say one word against them.
2. You have refused to follow several commands found in the Scripture as part of your piecemeal buffet approach to the Bible. And you also have many practices that are not Scriptural that you consider essential to the faith, such as an invitation at the end of the service, or ushers bringing the plates around for offerings.

You can either consider it comprehensive, and follow ALL of its commands, or you can assume that it didn't contain everything Christ taught. Granted, the latter actually fits with what John said at the end of his gospel, and what Paul said to the Thessalonians, so guess which one the Orthodox side with.
 
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Wgw

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You are skirting over the issue that this is not biblical. You can have bronze snakes, tombs, arks, tablets or whatever kind of religious objects you can pull out of the bible. Glorifing these things and calling them essential forms of the church has no biblical basis. It is very biblical themed but it is highly irresponsible to use "spiritual sounding" things and claim they essentials to faith and is mishandling the gospel. Icons may be about to gospel but the gospel is not about icons.

On the contrary, the Gospel is entirely about icons.

Jesus Christ, iconographically embodying humanity, purifies our fallen nature and glorifies it, redtoring the image tarnished by the fall and making it not just a reflection of but actually a direct portrait of God through the Incarnation.

Human beings in turn attain salvation through the process of Theosis, following in the example of Christ and purifying the fallen human nature through ascesis, almsgiving and most importantly partiicpation in the life-giving mysteries of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, thus becoming iconographic representations of God.

This is the Gospel as understood by the incomparably ancient Orthodox faith; what I have said is not in any sense a novel idea but can be found in the writings of Ss. Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athanasius, Basil, Gregory Nazianzus, John Chrysystom, Cyril and others. It is literally the faith expressed by the Apostles in the New Testament, by our Lord "Be ye lerfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect," and so on.

To a Protestant, this may seem like an extreme and alien theology, but this is verifiably the faith of the Fathers at Nicea; it is entirely Scriptural and it is the Orthodox interpretation of the Gospel.

Orthodox theology is incarnational theology. Incarnational theology is iconographic theology. Iconographic theology is the theology of deification, the theology of the Gospel as directly understood by the early Church fathers.
 
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MrMoe

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What possible reason would the beekeeper have for putting bee repellant on the icons?

Possibly to fake a miracle.

Especially on an image he is putting inside of his bee hive, which is a source of his livelihood. You're basically saying this guy was so interested in fabricating a miracle that he essentially endangered his income to make it happen. That's not exactly a rock solid theory

Can you please show how putting bee repellent on a small area would endanger an entire colony of bees. I assume he would have more than one beehive.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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They are not false images just because you say they are. Since Scripture DOESN'T say they are false, they are true. Unless you can PROVE they are false, which requires that you be able to read minds and prove your ability to read minds. Is that clear?

"Since then we are God’s offspring, we ought not to suppose that Deity (the Godhead) is like gold or silver or stone, [of the nature of] a representation by human art and imagination, or anything constructed or invented.." (Acts 17:29 AMPC).

"The idols of the nations are silver and gold, the work of human hands." (Psalm 135:15).

"And exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man ..." (Romans 1:23 ESV).

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God..." (Exodus 20:3-5).

"All who make idols are nothing,

and the things they treasure are worthless.

Those who would speak up for them are blind;

they are ignorant, to their own shame.

Who shapes a god and casts an idol,

which can profit nothing?

People who do that will be put to shame;

such craftsmen are only human beings.

Let them all come together and take their stand;

they will be brought down to terror and shame." (Isaiah 44:9-11 NIV).

“Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry” (1 Corinthians 10:14).

Little children, keep yourselves from idols (1 John 5:21).

Whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31).


Their land is filled with idols; they bow down to the work of their hands, to what their own fingers have made. (Isaiah 2:8).







In idolatry, it was common for them to kiss their idols.

"And now they sin more and more, and have made them molten images of their silver, and idols according to their own understanding, all of it the work of the craftsmen: they say of them, Let the men that sacrifice kiss the calves."








 
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To what end?

If there was some kind of repellant added to the painting, what would be his motivation? Well, if such were the case, it's possible he is merely looking for attention. It is also possible there is no repellant. The point being is that the Bible condemns idolatry and whether it was a super natural event (it was not one of God) and if it was not fraud, then the bees by their very nature are avoiding something they know to be bad by instinct (i.e. because God desires His creation to worship Him in spirit and in truth and He does not desire them to look to false idols or idolatrous imagery).

Side Note:

Also, if there was bee repellant (such as mint) added to the painting, you said that this would endanger the man's income by doing so. Actually, it is the exact opposite. Doing such a thing would make him more popular by creating a miracle. For who is going to really care to check and or investigate to see if such a miracle was false? The chances of such a thing happening are pretty slim.

And if someone did challenge him and he was not honest in the beginning (and he continued to be dishonest - hypotheically speaking) he could deny it and say that he was unaware that there was mint used in the painting. He could then blame it on the paint company and shift the blame to them.


...
 
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On the contrary, the Gospel is entirely about icons.

While there are symbols like the cross and the brass serpent that points us to Jesus and the gospel message, by themselves they are nothing.

For idolatry is condemned in the Bible and these symbols (such as the cross and the brass serpent) were not used later on by the apostles in the New Testament as statues or drawings, etc (as a part of their gospel message or in their worship).

1 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).


...
 
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That attracts kisses from the Holy Father but will it repel bees?

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven" (Matthew 23:9).

"...to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:6).


....
 
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Wgw

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While there are symbols like the cross and the brass serpent that points us to Jesus and the gospel message, by themselves they are nothing.

For idolatry is condemned in the Bible and these symbols (such as the cross and the brass serpent) were not used later on by the apostles in the New Testament as statues or drawings, etc (as a part of their gospel message or in their worship).

1 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

...

Not only did the apostles use the symbols you refer to, but they also initiated the use of iconography according to divine writ.

Let us review the relevant anathemas of Nicea II:

"Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to the image breakers.

Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images.

Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.

Anathema to those who say that Christians have recourse to the images as to gods.

Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.

Anathema to those who knowingly communicate with those who revile and dishonour the venerable images.

Anathema to those who say that another than Christ our Lord has delivered us from idols.

Anathema to those who dare to say that the Catholic Church has at any time sanctioned idols.

Anathema to those who say that the making of images is a diabolical invention and not a tradition of our holy Fathers."
 
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Wgw

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"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven" (Matthew 23:9).

"...to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:6).


....

Oh lol, as if we didnt see that one coming.
 
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