(moved) 70ad Resurrection -- Covenantal resurrection

Reformed Lutheran

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I still find it hard to follow.

How would those who departed before 70AD would consciously realise, experience and enjoy the resurrection that they were all raised from the dead and entered the new heaven?

Are you saying that there are living conscious souls in heaven who are reunited with the Lord?

They are living souls ,, they've been raised out of death at the resurrection.

And together with us and all the saints make up the one corporate BODY of the resurrection ,, the covenantal change and mode of existence in the new covenant
 
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Berean777

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They are living souls ,, they've been raised out of death at the resurrection.

And together with us and all the saints make up the one corporate BODY of the resurrection ,, the covenantal change and mode of existence in the new covenant

Are you saying that these souls that have departed to be reunited with Christ in heaven, are conscious of life in heaven, in the similar (not same) way you as a human being living in the earthy body are conscious of life on earth.
 
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Wgw

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I'm just saying if your on a heresy witch hunt,, then hunt elsewhere. Why are you wasting your time when you could be doing something more important or actually engaging in discussion instead of scorning . Go to the Muslim websites and scorn them,, they are the ones murdering Christians across the globe

No doubt, but Muslims now only pose an external danger, whereas it is more likely for a God-fearing Christian to be deluded by doctrinal error resulting from a lack of theological erudition.
 
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Berean777

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No doubt, but Muslims now only pose an external danger, whereas it is more likely for a God-fearing Christian to be deluded by doctrinal error resulting from a lack of theological erudition.

You are correct we need to be alert especially of the enemy that is within, because of such, there is no defence because they go undetected and unchecked within the flock of Christ. The enemy without is observable and identified clearly as enemy and no Christain is going to believe the lie that is Islam when Mohammedans are thrusting swords in Christians. However the swords of the enemy are not only physical but also spiritual where when Christ warned the believers to not be deceived and to let no man steal your clean and white (doctrine) garments least you walk naked.
 
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Justme

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They are living souls ,, they've been raised out of death at the resurrection.

And together with us and all the saints make up the one corporate BODY of the resurrection ,, the covenantal change and mode of existence in the new covenant

Back a ways you made this statement:

there is now no longer 'hades' or 'the sea',, abodes of the dead where men previously died and their souls slept in the dust of the earth,, the abode of death was destroyed. We who are alive in Christ are alive indeed and we live to the Lord forever more and shall never taste death. physical biological death is not 'death' as defined in scripture, the 'death' that christ was to destroy or the death that we died in old covenant sin. biological death is a natural process of this earthly creation,, covenantal death and spiritual death is not natural, thus Christ came to destroy these works of the devil.

I have always felt that 'sea' in this context was the place of God's caring for the spirit as well. However, in all my reading I have never found good biblical references to verify what I believe. What convinced you of your understanding?

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Notrash

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Alas no; these martyrs themselves hoped for it, which we know from their writings (see Ss. Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Polycarp).

The Gnostics on the other hand believed in a spiritual resurrection, ignoring St. Paul ( that the dead should be raised incorruptible). They despised the idea of a physical resurrection. What is more, they were not in general martyred as it was a principle of Gnosticism to not actively seek out martyrdom in the manner of the Orthodox. Gnostics would lie and dissimulate.

The Gnostic horror of all things "physical" combined with their conviction that matter was evil, caused them to abhorr reproduction, so that ironically they are now extinct, despite having not been killed en masse by the Roman pagans.

The teaching of a physical resurrection is Biblical, it was accepted by Luther, and it is to be frank rather more Biblical than your theology of a "covenantal resurrection." The ability of St. Thomas the Apostle to touch the wounds of our Lord confirms the physicality of resurrection; the Pauline epistles confirm it further. It is for this reason that the Nicene Creed requires belief in the physical resurrection of the dead.

Ireneous was the first to demand that the bodily resurrection was part of orthodoxy and even that belief and confession being a test for being a christian.

But Ireneous held a literal hermeneutic of the epistles, not the grammatical, historical LITERARY hermeneutic. He did not read or study in context and from a first century audiences perspective.


A change in hermeneutic will effect a change in understanding.

For example what "body" has Paul been talking about in chs 12-14 of 1 Cor 15? What does Jesus say is his "body" (bread) in John 5 & 6? Does't he clarify to his disciples that he has been talking about his words, teachings and truths which are spirit and life as his bread and body.


How was Isaac "resurrected"?

How was Joseph DEAD to Israel and then considered resurrected and alive AGAIN after being told by his sons after returning from Egypt?

What




xz

A difference in hermeneutic will
 
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jerry kelso

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I've written on this topic before on my blog and elsewhere. Rather then posting a long argument and list of scriptures, that no one would likely read through (we all know most posters and readers on forums read at the most about one paragraph of most other peoples posts)..

so here are just a few misc. points to bring out discussion on this topic.


- in order to understand "Resurrection" we need to understand what we are resurrected from,, i.e., death.. so before we define 'resurrection' we need to define the word 'death'

- biological death is not the reference point for resurrection,, covenantal/spiritual death is DEATH and the death in which the resurrection is a reference to

- bodie(s), or a plurality of biological bodies are not what are to rise again,, Paul speaks that the resurrection is a resurrection of the BODY, singular, ONE body, i.e., one corporate body.

- regarding the resurrection of this ONE body, Paul says that we seek to be 'further clothed' , not that the body seeks to be naked, but seeks to be clothed, as we are, but further clothed.. Before Israel was called by God in Covenant, she was 'naked' and without clothes, ie. without a covenant to clothe her in.

- Paul says the resurrection is the hope of Israel.. Israel is a Corporate body that was clothed in covenant with God,, but that Body had died due to covenant breaking/sin. The resurrection was the new corporate body of Israel from heaven,, a new body was needed.

- Jesus told Israel "YOU need to be born again", ie.., the nation of Israel who was born into covenant with God, broken covenant with him, needed to be born again, born this time of the Spirit (heavenly), and not just of the carnal/flesh (old covenant)


when the old covenant passed away in 70ad at the Parousia of Christ, and being the resurrection timing event is directly tied to the Parousia, the resurrection occurred at the same time.. the covenantal transformation of Israel from one mode of existence, under the old covenant, to a new mode of existence under the new covenant,, she received her new corporate body in Christ. God, through this resurrection event of Christ, and then Israel itself, changed the world and brought in a new heaven and earth where there is NO temple and no DEATH.

reformed lutheran,

1. There is no scripture that says or implies the old covenant passed away in 70 A.D. or that there was a parousia of Christ.

2. The covenant of Israel was what Jesus taught under the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God and why it was a message to the jews only. Matthew 10:6-7.

3. A.D. 70 was prophetic from Jesus in Matthew 24 because the jews rejected him. The rejection is found in Matthew 23:37-39. This had nothing to do with the new covenant passing away at that time as far as Christ death, burial, and resurrection which is the gospel.

4. As far as the new covenant offer to the jews that was rejected before Christ died and their nation ending in 70 A.D. doesn't mean the new covenant in his blood was done away with. It means this covenant wasn't fulfilled in the context of Israel accepting it. In Hebrews 8 it shows that Israel will fulfill that covenant recorded in Jeremiah 31:31-32 in the future unlike the one of Moses. So you are taking it out of context and have no leg to stand on.

5. Concerning physical resurrection, Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:29; I die daily. This was in reference to the physical resurrection of the body because he was battling those in verse 12 of people who didn't believe in the physical resurrection.

6. He put his life on the line for the cause of Christ and if there was no hope of a physical resurrection then everything he did for Christ was in vain.
It will be a spiritual body and still of physical substance but of a higher substance. Because a body sown it has to die to be raised to a new body.

7. In 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; God is bringing the dead in Christ from heaven with him. What God is bringing back is a body in soulish form and will receive a body that is spiritual and yet a physical heavenly substance. This substance will be incorruptible and immortal. The soul is already immortal but the body is not. Jerry kelso
 
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Justme

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reformed lutheran,
It will be a spiritual body and still of physical substance but of a higher substance. Because a body sown it has to die to be raised to a new body.

How does a spiritual or non corporeal body be physical?
I realize the bible never describes the exact 'spiritual' body but being spiritual pretty much eliminates any possibility if being a physical entity. Jesus is a spirit in a spiritual body, 1 COR 15:45 and we will have a body like Him, Phil 3:21 and we are raised a spiritual body , 1 COR 15:44.... NO physical to it!

Justme
 
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jerry kelso

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How does a spiritual or non corporeal body be physical?
I realize the bible never describes the exact 'spiritual' body but being spiritual pretty much eliminates any possibility if being a physical entity. Jesus is a spirit in a spiritual body, 1 COR 15:45 and we will have a body like Him, Phil 3:21 and we are raised a spiritual body , 1 COR 15:44.... NO physical to it!

Justme

justme,
The point is that a spiritual body has a form and substance and it is heavenly and not earthly. Our bodies die and have to be resurrected and united with our soulish form.
I will ask you what you think a spiritual body is? Our bodies are changed from corruptible to incorruptible.
Jesus glorified body still had the scars in his hand and he still looked like a person and he could go through doors etc. So when I say a physical body I am saying a body that is a higher substance than our bodies for it will be immortal and incorruptible and we will have all the features that we had before on earth such as hands and feet which are called physical features.
Many people believe because God is Spirit he is a ghost or nothingness or whatever. So what is your belief of the spiritual body? Jerry kelso
 
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Justme

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justme,
The point is that a spiritual body has a form and substance and it is heavenly and not earthly. Our bodies die and have to be resurrected and united with our soulish form.
I will ask you what you think a spiritual body is? Our bodies are changed from corruptible to incorruptible.
Jesus glorified body still had the scars in his hand and he still looked like a person and he could go through doors etc. So when I say a physical body I am saying a body that is a higher substance than our bodies for it will be immortal and incorruptible and we will have all the features that we had before on earth such as hands and feet which are called physical features.
Many people believe because God is Spirit he is a ghost or nothingness or whatever. So what is your belief of the spiritual body? Jerry kelso

Thanks for the quick response.

Okay, I will go with the heavenly idea. We have to be suitable for eternal life in heaven.

I disagree however, that our 'earth body' is resurrected.
Ecclesiastes tells us in 12:7 tht the earth body returns to dust. That means it decays and remains in the grave. The spirit returns to God and is covered with the heavenly body , 2 COR 5
4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

All this takes place at our judgment after death, Hebrews 9:27, and this happens to the earthly body. 2 Cor 5
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

So the earth body, the body we are in now serves no purpose after our death. We are given a heavenly body to cover our spirit by God so we can live eternally in heaven.

I picture the heavenly body to be the exact likeness of our earth body but it is incorporeal or invisible to mortals as God is. Our heavenly bodies are readily seen by other spirits but not by mortals.

I think that is borne out by the biblical fact that Jesus was without His earthly body the night He died, yet He spoke in the prison and met with the thief, Luke 23:43. Jesus had to pass thru the rock in front of His tomb if He was going to re-enter His earthly body.
Acts 10:40 NASB clarifies it all for me:
40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Jesus had to be INVISIBLE to require that God grant Him to BECOME visible.

As well all eternal things are unseen as per 2 COR 4
18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Justme
 
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jerry kelso

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Thanks for the quick response.

Okay, I will go with the heavenly idea. We have to be suitable for eternal life in heaven.

I disagree however, that our 'earth body' is resurrected.
Ecclesiastes tells us in 12:7 tht the earth body returns to dust. That means it decays and remains in the grave. The spirit returns to God and is covered with the heavenly body , 2 COR 5
4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

All this takes place at our judgment after death, Hebrews 9:27, and this happens to the earthly body. 2 Cor 5
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

So the earth body, the body we are in now serves no purpose after our death. We are given a heavenly body to cover our spirit by God so we can live eternally in heaven.

I picture the heavenly body to be the exact likeness of our earth body but it is incorporeal or invisible to mortals as God is. Our heavenly bodies are readily seen by other spirits but not by mortals.

I think that is borne out by the biblical fact that Jesus was without His earthly body the night He died, yet He spoke in the prison and met with the thief, Luke 23:43. Jesus had to pass thru the rock in front of His tomb if He was going to re-enter His earthly body.
Acts 10:40 NASB clarifies it all for me:
40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Jesus had to be INVISIBLE to require that God grant Him to BECOME visible.

As well all eternal things are unseen as per 2 COR 4
18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Justme

justme,

1. The body does return to the dust for this was the judgement on Adam to begin with (Genesis 3:19).

2. 1 Corinthians 5:4 is talking about our earthly body and the need for mortality. Verse 1; Our tabernacle, the body is not made with human hands but is eternal in heavens.

3. The earthly body dissolved doesn't mean that there is nothing left from that earthly body to resurrect.
1 Corinthians 15 tells us about the resurrection of the body. In verse 38 every seed his own body is given to each man and woman. The fleshly body was sown in corruption because we were born into sin and the physical body is contaminated by the curse of sin and this is why Paul said our vile body had to be changed (Philippians 3:21): Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. The changing of the vile body being changed is the usage of our earthly body to be fashioned like unto his glorious body. If the vile body is not being changed then we are just given another body and new body does not have to be resurrected. Our earthly bodies were not resurrected, they were created.

4. While it is not the same exact body we have it would be the dust as far as the dead in Christ. Those who are caught up in the rapture that have not died in a moment will be changed just like those who are dead is not from the dust for we are alive. It is said our bodies are changed from corruptible to incorruptible. The mortal has to put on immortality. This is speaking of the physical body being changed to have immortality. The mortal putting on immortality does not sound like being given a new body for it would be given immortality to begin with.

5. Luke 23:43: is about Jesus saying to the thief that he would be with him in paradise. Paradise was the bosom of Abraham located in the earth below in a compartment of hell that had a gulf that separated the saved and unsaved. This is seen in the true story of Lazarus and the rich man. It was the soul that was alive and not the body for the body went back to the dust and yet he could be seen.
Jesus didn't pass through the rock to re-enter his physical body and there is no scripture that I know of that implies that.

6. Acts 10:40 does not say that God raised him up the third day to become visible. It says to shew him openly and it was physically in shewing him to the disciples and 500 brethren who were eyewitnesses of the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:6). Acts 1:3: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

7. God being invisible or Christ being invisible just means that he is not seen by those who are not close enough to see him or in a different place than others. If I am in one state and you the other you cannot see me visibly with your eyesight but it doesn't mean I am invisible as being a nothingness of visibility. It just means that I am not in range of being seen.

8. 2 Corinthians 4:18: the eternal things are not seen for we have not inherited those things on earth for we are finite. The context is about what we have to look forward to. No invisibility because of being a nothingness of visibility but because we haven't taken on the eternal and immortal yet. Only then will it to be physically seen.
So from the context of the scripture it appears that our tabernacled will be changed and this is the context of being dissolved; the changing being mortal to immortal. God bless! Jerry kelso
 
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Justme

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justme,

1. The body does return to the dust for this was the judgement on Adam to begin with (Genesis 3:19).

2. 1 Corinthians 5:4 is talking about our earthly body and the need for mortality. Verse 1; Our tabernacle, the body is not made with human hands but is eternal in heavens.

3. The earthly body dissolved doesn't mean that there is nothing left from that earthly body to resurrect.
1 Corinthians 15 tells us about the resurrection of the body. In verse 38 every seed his own body is given to each man and woman. The fleshly body was sown in corruption because we were born into sin and the physical body is contaminated by the curse of sin and this is why Paul said our vile body had to be changed (Philippians 3:21): Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. The changing of the vile body being changed is the usage of our earthly body to be fashioned like unto his glorious body. If the vile body is not being changed then we are just given another body and new body does not have to be resurrected. Our earthly bodies were not resurrected, they were created.

4. While it is not the same exact body we have it would be the dust as far as the dead in Christ. Those who are caught up in the rapture that have not died in a moment will be changed just like those who are dead is not from the dust for we are alive. It is said our bodies are changed from corruptible to incorruptible. The mortal has to put on immortality. This is speaking of the physical body being changed to have immortality. The mortal putting on immortality does not sound like being given a new body for it would be given immortality to begin with.

5. Luke 23:43: is about Jesus saying to the thief that he would be with him in paradise. Paradise was the bosom of Abraham located in the earth below in a compartment of hell that had a gulf that separated the saved and unsaved. This is seen in the true story of Lazarus and the rich man. It was the soul that was alive and not the body for the body went back to the dust and yet he could be seen.
Jesus didn't pass through the rock to re-enter his physical body and there is no scripture that I know of that implies that.

6. Acts 10:40 does not say that God raised him up the third day to become visible. It says to shew him openly and it was physically in shewing him to the disciples and 500 brethren who were eyewitnesses of the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:6). Acts 1:3: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

7. God being invisible or Christ being invisible just means that he is not seen by those who are not close enough to see him or in a different place than others. If I am in one state and you the other you cannot see me visibly with your eyesight but it doesn't mean I am invisible as being a nothingness of visibility. It just means that I am not in range of being seen.

8. 2 Corinthians 4:18: the eternal things are not seen for we have not inherited those things on earth for we are finite. The context is about what we have to look forward to. No invisibility because of being a nothingness of visibility but because we haven't taken on the eternal and immortal yet. Only then will it to be physically seen.
So from the context of the scripture it appears that our tabernacled will be changed and this is the context of being dissolved; the changing being mortal to immortal. God bless! Jerry kelso
justme,

1. The body does return to the dust for this was the judgement on Adam to begin with (Genesis 3:19).

2. 1 Corinthians 5:4 is talking about our earthly body and the need for mortality. Verse 1; Our tabernacle, the body is not made with human hands but is eternal in heavens.

3. The earthly body dissolved doesn't mean that there is nothing left from that earthly body to resurrect.
1 Corinthians 15 tells us about the resurrection of the body. In verse 38 every seed his own body is given to each man and woman. The fleshly body was sown in corruption because we were born into sin and the physical body is contaminated by the curse of sin and this is why Paul said our vile body had to be changed (Philippians 3:21): Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. The changing of the vile body being changed is the usage of our earthly body to be fashioned like unto his glorious body. If the vile body is not being changed then we are just given another body and new body does not have to be resurrected. Our earthly bodies were not resurrected, they were created.

4. While it is not the same exact body we have it would be the dust as far as the dead in Christ. Those who are caught up in the rapture that have not died in a moment will be changed just like those who are dead is not from the dust for we are alive. It is said our bodies are changed from corruptible to incorruptible. The mortal has to put on immortality. This is speaking of the physical body being changed to have immortality. The mortal putting on immortality does not sound like being given a new body for it would be given immortality to begin with.

5. Luke 23:43: is about Jesus saying to the thief that he would be with him in paradise. Paradise was the bosom of Abraham located in the earth below in a compartment of hell that had a gulf that separated the saved and unsaved. This is seen in the true story of Lazarus and the rich man. It was the soul that was alive and not the body for the body went back to the dust and yet he could be seen.
Jesus didn't pass through the rock to re-enter his physical body and there is no scripture that I know of that implies that.

6. Acts 10:40 does not say that God raised him up the third day to become visible. It says to shew him openly and it was physically in shewing him to the disciples and 500 brethren who were eyewitnesses of the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:6). Acts 1:3: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

7. God being invisible or Christ being invisible just means that he is not seen by those who are not close enough to see him or in a different place than others. If I am in one state and you the other you cannot see me visibly with your eyesight but it doesn't mean I am invisible as being a nothingness of visibility. It just means that I am not in range of being seen.

8. 2 Corinthians 4:18: the eternal things are not seen for we have not inherited those things on earth for we are finite. The context is about what we have to look forward to. No invisibility because of being a nothingness of visibility but because we haven't taken on the eternal and immortal yet. Only then will it to be physically seen.
So from the context of the scripture it appears that our tabernacled will be changed and this is the context of being dissolved; the changing being mortal to immortal. God bless! Jerry kelso
1. Yes, Genesis 3 tells us we will return to dust. Man originally came from dust, he will return to dust.
Ecclesiastes 12 says it the same way...
and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Here we see the separation of body and spirit. Peter defines that for us in 2 Peter 1:13-15.
Peter is still Peter but he as left his earth body behind.

2. The body in 2 COR 5 is the heavenly body given by God. That is the body we will inhabit for eternity as we live in heaven. Given by God not made with hands. The old earth body decays in the grave.

3. Oh, I would say there is nothing of the body to resurrect. Flesh serves no purpose in the afterlife.It is the immortal soul which is the inner being of each of us that lives forever, the body decays. No need to worry tho as God covers that immortal soul with that heavenly body of 2 COR 5:1.
Yes, our vile body is changed, just as Jesus was. Our vile body is changed to what Jesus IS. Jesus is a spirit in a spiritual or heavenly body. A body invisible to mortals.
1 COR 15:44 says definitively, that we are raised a spiritual body. That is one of the two bodies available to man, the earthly (natural) and the spiritual (heavenly). The natural body , the one we are in now, comes first. After that we will bear the image of the heavenly man, 1 COR 15:49. The heavenly man is described here:

col 1
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Tim 1
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
WE are being changed. We are being changed from a earth dwelling being to a heavenly dwelling being. There is no need of anything physical in heaven. It is well known that flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of heaven. Flesh serves no purpose in heaven, we have no further need of flesh, we need only our immortal soul.

4. I would have to see biblical proof there is a rapture first. NO LIVING person, in the new covenant, can ever leave this earth and arrive in heaven for eternity. No person, once arriving in heaven, can ever leave heaven. Heaven is the one and only option for the righteous dead. Again , 2 COR 5:1.

5. Jesus spoke with the thief, Jesus spoke in the prison. That was the first night after His death. His earth body had been placed in a locked tomb. IF the spirit was to return to the body of Jesus on the third day, that spirit had to pass thru the rock or the body had to pass thru the rock. One of God's laws tells us that two physical masses can occupy the same space at the same time. So then YES, the Jesus who met with the thief, either passed thru the rock or the Jesus who met with the thief never entered the tomb in the first place. The bible is not specific on what happened but my guess would be that Jesus was always as spirit from the moment He died. God animated the earthly boy of Jesus to display to the witnesses to verify eternal life for all believers.
Yes our bodies become immortal. That process is the result of death, decay of the earthly body and the gift of the heavenly body from God. That heavenly body is just the carrying case for the immortal soul as the earth body was the carrying case for the soul on earth.
6. Actually, yes Acts 10:4o does says God granted He become visible. The NASB says it directly and the manuscripts take the word fro the Greek...emphanēs.... which, according to Strong, means :
manifest....
fig. of God giving proofs of his saving grace and thus manifesting himself

7. No I don't think so. We can't see God becaue He i around the corner???? NO We as mortals can not see God because He is spirit.
John 4
24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Jesus became flesh to live among man, then after His death Jesus became spirit again, 1 cor 15:45. Jesus remains a spirit in a spiritual body or heavenly body.

8. Yes we are finite or we are temporal. Things eternal are unseen, God is eternal , God is invisible.

I see the whole issue as being explained in a few verses. Phil 3:21 tells us we will have a body as Jesus does. Jesus, to me as a kinda trinitarian, is God, God is spirit. Jesus is also spirit, 1 COR 15:45. Verse 44 tells me flat out I will be raised a spiritual body. We can make excuses as to why these verses say the opposite of the words within them, but I don't. I take it word for word.
Justme
 
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jerry kelso

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1. Yes, Genesis 3 tells us we will return to dust. Man originally came from dust, he will return to dust.
Ecclesiastes 12 says it the same way...
and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Here we see the separation of body and spirit. Peter defines that for us in 2 Peter 1:13-15.
Peter is still Peter but he as left his earth body behind.

2. The body in 2 COR 5 is the heavenly body given by God. That is the body we will inhabit for eternity as we live in heaven. Given by God not made with hands. The old earth body decays in the grave.

3. Oh, I would say there is nothing of the body to resurrect. Flesh serves no purpose in the afterlife.It is the immortal soul which is the inner being of each of us that lives forever, the body decays. No need to worry tho as God covers that immortal soul with that heavenly body of 2 COR 5:1.
Yes, our vile body is changed, just as Jesus was. Our vile body is changed to what Jesus IS. Jesus is a spirit in a spiritual or heavenly body. A body invisible to mortals.
1 COR 15:44 says definitively, that we are raised a spiritual body. That is one of the two bodies available to man, the earthly (natural) and the spiritual (heavenly). The natural body , the one we are in now, comes first. After that we will bear the image of the heavenly man, 1 COR 15:49. The heavenly man is described here:

col 1
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Tim 1
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
WE are being changed. We are being changed from a earth dwelling being to a heavenly dwelling being. There is no need of anything physical in heaven. It is well known that flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of heaven. Flesh serves no purpose in heaven, we have no further need of flesh, we need only our immortal soul.

4. I would have to see biblical proof there is a rapture first. NO LIVING person, in the new covenant, can ever leave this earth and arrive in heaven for eternity. No person, once arriving in heaven, can ever leave heaven. Heaven is the one and only option for the righteous dead. Again , 2 COR 5:1.

5. Jesus spoke with the thief, Jesus spoke in the prison. That was the first night after His death. His earth body had been placed in a locked tomb. IF the spirit was to return to the body of Jesus on the third day, that spirit had to pass thru the rock or the body had to pass thru the rock. One of God's laws tells us that two physical masses can occupy the same space at the same time. So then YES, the Jesus who met with the thief, either passed thru the rock or the Jesus who met with the thief never entered the tomb in the first place. The bible is not specific on what happened but my guess would be that Jesus was always as spirit from the moment He died. God animated the earthly boy of Jesus to display to the witnesses to verify eternal life for all believers.
Yes our bodies become immortal. That process is the result of death, decay of the earthly body and the gift of the heavenly body from God. That heavenly body is just the carrying case for the immortal soul as the earth body was the carrying case for the soul on earth.
6. Actually, yes Acts 10:4o does says God granted He become visible. The NASB says it directly and the manuscripts take the word fro the Greek...emphanēs.... which, according to Strong, means :
manifest....
fig. of God giving proofs of his saving grace and thus manifesting himself

7. No I don't think so. We can't see God becaue He i around the corner???? NO We as mortals can not see God because He is spirit.
John 4
24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Jesus became flesh to live among man, then after His death Jesus became spirit again, 1 cor 15:45. Jesus remains a spirit in a spiritual body or heavenly body.

8. Yes we are finite or we are temporal. Things eternal are unseen, God is eternal , God is invisible.

I see the whole issue as being explained in a few verses. Phil 3:21 tells us we will have a body as Jesus does. Jesus, to me as a kinda trinitarian, is God, God is spirit. Jesus is also spirit, 1 COR 15:45. Verse 44 tells me flat out I will be raised a spiritual body. We can make excuses as to why these verses say the opposite of the words within them, but I don't. I take it word for word.
Justme

justme,

1. We will have a spiritual body which is a heavenly body and not the earthly body.

2. We will not have flesh from the old earthly body. The dust is a grain which lasts and God will raise it up. 1 Corinthians 15:35; But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Verse 36; Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die; Verse 37; And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: Verse 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. Verse 44: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. It is not the flesh but the seed which is the grain that is raised up as a spiritual body.

3. There is no scripture that says God is invisible meaning one cannot be seen with the eye. Moses say God's hinder parts but not all of his glory. We are made in God's image body, mind and soul. His is a greater substance. It sounds like you think God is an invisible ghost. Why? What purpose does that serve?

4. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is a rapture for we who remain and alive will be changed in a twinkling of an eye and meet Jesus in the air. Rapture means "caught up" and this is definitely being caught up and a rapture.
Revelation 7 has the 144,00 who are seal for protection through the trumpet judgements and are rapture in the middle of the tribulation in Revelation 14:1 and in 14:3 and 5 they are before the throne in heaven. That is a rapture. The tribulation saints in the first half are seen in heaven in Revelation 6:11. Revelation 11 has the 2 witnesses being killed, layed out in the streets for three days and then raptured up to heaven with the remnant looking on. That appears to be a rapture. Revelation 15 has the tribulation saints who got victory over the beast and his mark. They were martyred too and seen in heaven before the 7 vials are to be poured out on the beast kingdom worshippers in Revelation 16. That is a rapture. There are plenty of raptures before Christ comes back again. Out of all these raptures the only one with living believers and the dead in Christ being resurrected is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The context is the living of the church age and the dead in Christ which would include both old testament saints and the new testament saints who had died before the tribulation starts.

5. The soul is immortal and there is a spirit body or an intermediate body of some kind that can be seen and speak as well. This is what the true account of Lazarus and the rich man shows. Acts 2:31 says that his soul was not left in hell. He also preached to the spirits in prison in hell and this was his body in soulish form. This means your story about his spirit passing through the rock is not true.

6. You have the wrong understanding about physical to merely mean earthly. You also fail to understand the seed of our bodies that die is what will be changed and resurrected into a heavenly body. It will be changed from corruptible which was the state of our vile bodies and will be changed into incorruptible bodies which is heavenly and eternal. Also, you are confused with the meaning of invisible, believing it means a spirit bodies cannot be seen which there is no scripture to prove that that I know of. Jerry kelso
 
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Justme

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justme,

1. We will have a spiritual body which is a heavenly body and not the earthly body.

That is how I see it as well.

2. We will not have flesh from the old earthly body. The dust is a grain which lasts and God will raise it up. 1 Corinthians 15:35; But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Verse 36; Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die; Verse 37; And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: Verse 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. Verse 44: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. It is not the flesh but the seed which is the grain that is raised up as a spiritual body.

No flesh, yes we agree.
The earth body goes in the grave and the spirit returns to God. What we have to work on is this decay of the body. Every body except Jesus will decay, return to the dust. There is not a verse which says that God can or will rebuild that pile of dust. I know that because there is a verse which tells us that there is a new body from God and the earth body is destroyed. That verse is 2 COR 5:1.

3. There is no scripture that says God is invisible meaning one cannot be seen with the eye. Moses say God's hinder parts but not all of his glory. We are made in God's image body, mind and soul. His is a greater substance. It sounds like you think God is an invisible ghost. Why? What purpose does that serve?

What would indicate to us that we, as mortals, can SEE a spirit? I pointed out a couple of verses which tell us that the heavenly man is invisible, Col 1:15 and 1 Tim 1:17. God is spirit, John 4:24 and Jesus is spirit, 1 COR 15:45...
Yes we are made in God's image which is why I guess that our spiritual bodies are the exact replica of our earth bodies except they are spirits or invisible to mortals.

4. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is a rapture for we who remain and alive will be changed in a twinkling of an eye and meet Jesus in the air. Rapture means "caught up" and this is definitely being caught up and a rapture.
Revelation 7 has the 144,00 who are seal for protection through the trumpet judgements and are rapture in the middle of the tribulation in Revelation 14:1 and in 14:3 and 5 they are before the throne in heaven. That is a rapture. The tribulation saints in the first half are seen in heaven in Revelation 6:11. Revelation 11 has the 2 witnesses being killed, layed out in the streets for three days and then raptured up to heaven with the remnant looking on. That appears to be a rapture. Revelation 15 has the tribulation saints who got victory over the beast and his mark. They were martyred too and seen in heaven before the 7 vials are to be poured out on the beast kingdom worshippers in Revelation 16. That is a rapture. There are plenty of raptures before Christ comes back again. Out of all these raptures the only one with living believers and the dead in Christ being resurrected is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The context is the living of the church age and the dead in Christ which would include both old testament saints and the new testament saints who had died before the tribulation starts.

The 'change' at the last trump, as I see it, is that if we die after the moment of the last trump, we no longer have to sleep and await a resurrection of the dead. We are taken to heaven immediately after our meeting with Jesus after we die, Hebrews 9:27, when we attend the judgment seat of Jesus 2 COR 5:10. This all takes place very quickly as we can learn form John 11:26 where Jesus tells Martha she will NEVER DIE.... she lives her earthly life, physically dies and immediately begins her heavenly life. Her earth body remains in the grave by the way.

5. The soul is immortal and there is a spirit body or an intermediate body of some kind that can be seen and speak as well. This is what the true account of Lazarus and the rich man shows. Acts 2:31 says that his soul was not left in hell. He also preached to the spirits in prison in hell and this was his body in soulish form. This means your story about his spirit passing through the rock is not true.

What we have to realize is that the bible describes two 'after death' situations. One situation is prior to the last trump when we have to sleep and await a resurrection from the dead and AFTER the last trump, 1 COR 15:5

6. You have the wrong understanding about physical to merely mean earthly. You also fail to understand the seed of our bodies that die is what will be changed and resurrected into a heavenly body. It will be changed from corruptible which was the state of our vile bodies and will be changed into incorruptible bodies which is heavenly and eternal. Also, you are confused with the meaning of invisible, believing it means a spirit bodies cannot be seen which there is no scripture to prove that that I know of. Jerry kelso

Sorry, I messed up a post here somehow!!! I'll try again later.........
 
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Justme

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justme,

1. We will have a spiritual body which is a heavenly body and not the earthly body.

2. We will not have flesh from the old earthly body. The dust is a grain which lasts and God will raise it up. 1 Corinthians 15:35; But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Verse 36; Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die; Verse 37; And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: Verse 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. Verse 44: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. It is not the flesh but the seed which is the grain that is raised up as a spiritual body.

3. There is no scripture that says God is invisible meaning one cannot be seen with the eye. Moses say God's hinder parts but not all of his glory. We are made in God's image body, mind and soul. His is a greater substance. It sounds like you think God is an invisible ghost. Why? What purpose does that serve?

4. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is a rapture for we who remain and alive will be changed in a twinkling of an eye and meet Jesus in the air. Rapture means "caught up" and this is definitely being caught up and a rapture.
Revelation 7 has the 144,00 who are seal for protection through the trumpet judgements and are rapture in the middle of the tribulation in Revelation 14:1 and in 14:3 and 5 they are before the throne in heaven. That is a rapture. The tribulation saints in the first half are seen in heaven in Revelation 6:11. Revelation 11 has the 2 witnesses being killed, layed out in the streets for three days and then raptured up to heaven with the remnant looking on. That appears to be a rapture. Revelation 15 has the tribulation saints who got victory over the beast and his mark. They were martyred too and seen in heaven before the 7 vials are to be poured out on the beast kingdom worshippers in Revelation 16. That is a rapture. There are plenty of raptures before Christ comes back again. Out of all these raptures the only one with living believers and the dead in Christ being resurrected is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The context is the living of the church age and the dead in Christ which would include both old testament saints and the new testament saints who had died before the tribulation starts.

5. The soul is immortal and there is a spirit body or an intermediate body of some kind that can be seen and speak as well. This is what the true account of Lazarus and the rich man shows. Acts 2:31 says that his soul was not left in hell. He also preached to the spirits in prison in hell and this was his body in soulish form. This means your story about his spirit passing through the rock is not true.

6. You have the wrong understanding about physical to merely mean earthly. You also fail to understand the seed of our bodies that die is what will be changed and resurrected into a heavenly body. It will be changed from corruptible which was the state of our vile bodies and will be changed into incorruptible bodies which is heavenly and eternal. Also, you are confused with the meaning of invisible, believing it means a spirit bodies cannot be seen which there is no scripture to prove that that I know of. Jerry kelso

First here is a definition of 'physical.'

Merriam-Webster
: relating to the body of a person instead of the mind

: existing in a form that you can touch or see

The connection to earthly in 1 COR 15 is that there are two types of bodies available to man, the earthly(natural) and the spiritual(heavenly). The physical body can be seen by mortals because it is temporal, the spiritual body can not.

Spiritual... again from Merriam -Webster

of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : incorporeal <spiritual needs>
2
a : of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs>

I use the Merriam-Webster here because I like their definition of 'incorporeal'
not corporeal : having no material body or form
God and Jesus have no MATERIAL form. ...or physical form, they still have a form but not a physical one that you and I can see as mortals. We can see it readily when we are 'in the spirit' as John was during his vision or when we die and meet with Jesus.
My understanding of physical can be take form a very basic law...two physical substances can not occupy the same space at the same time. Jesus could not be physical as He passed thru the rock. ( I'll get back to the passing thru the rock later.) Jesus could not have been physical as He entered the room with the doors locked to show His wounds.
Jesus could not have been physical as He visited our church last Sunday.
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Jesus was not physical when He talked to Saul near Damascus: Acts 9:3-7.

I'll leave the rapture out of my response as I am sure there is already a thread about rapture somewhere else...yes...no????

Yes, the soul is immortal. However, we have two biblical explanations of what happens to that immortal soul after our death. It depends on if we die BEFORE or AFTER the last trump of 1 COR 15:51 and 52.
Justme
 
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jerry kelso

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First here is a definition of 'physical.'

Merriam-Webster
: relating to the body of a person instead of the mind

: existing in a form that you can touch or see

The connection to earthly in 1 COR 15 is that there are two types of bodies available to man, the earthly(natural) and the spiritual(heavenly). The physical body can be seen by mortals because it is temporal, the spiritual body can not.

Spiritual... again from Merriam -Webster

of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : incorporeal <spiritual needs>
2
a : of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs>

I use the Merriam-Webster here because I like their definition of 'incorporeal'
not corporeal : having no material body or form
God and Jesus have no MATERIAL form. ...or physical form, they still have a form but not a physical one that you and I can see as mortals. We can see it readily when we are 'in the spirit' as John was during his vision or when we die and meet with Jesus.
My understanding of physical can be take form a very basic law...two physical substances can not occupy the same space at the same time. Jesus could not be physical as He passed thru the rock. ( I'll get back to the passing thru the rock later.) Jesus could not have been physical as He entered the room with the doors locked to show His wounds.
Jesus could not have been physical as He visited our church last Sunday.
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Jesus was not physical when He talked to Saul near Damascus: Acts 9:3-7.

I'll leave the rapture out of my response as I am sure there is already a thread about rapture somewhere else...yes...no????

Yes, the soul is immortal. However, we have two biblical explanations of what happens to that immortal soul after our death. It depends on if we die BEFORE or AFTER the last trump of 1 COR 15:51 and 52.
Justme

justme,

Revelation 22:4 says we will see God's face. This seems to be literal. Exodus 33:20 God said no one could see his face and live. This didn't say he was invisible. It said he was visible but if his glory in its fullness was seen by Moses he would die.
Moses could not see his face or fullness of glory but God showed him his hinder parts.
David said he would see God's face.
God is not invisible as having no form for a spirit has a form even though it is not the substance of a physical body.
Some say that God has to be spirit in order to be omnipresent. This may be true but at the same time Jesus had a physical body and after his resurrection he was going through doors. Was he already in his glorified body then or not? If he wasn't it doesn't make sense to us because physical can't go through doors or rocks etc. If he was then the body was of a spiritual substance and yet he could be seen and they could touch him and see his nail prints etc. The point is that God too as being a spirit has a form that can be seen but not in all of his glory. This probably won't be possible till we get glorified bodies.
Remember this, Jesus soul was in hell and could be seen and he didn't have a physical body.
The conclusion is that God being a spirit is not disqualified from having a form that can be seen. He is not an invisible nothingness. After all we will have a spiritual body in the resurrection and if you will notice Paul said body in the same phrase "spiritual". God is a spirit which means he has a spirit body that has form that can be seen. Jerry Kelso
 
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Berean777

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Paul explains the spiritual body that we will put on at the resurrection is a heavenly body which is in vast contrast to the earthy body. He explains a seed, how it is seeded in the ground and it must die before something else grows from it. Paul calls the heavenly body as the Lord from Heaven, the Holy Ones that accompany with Christ. So Paul always speaks of this groaning to put on this body in the present tense, even after Pentecost after he was in dwelled by the Holy Ghost, because he had yet to receive it.

The spiritual rebirth happened at Pentecost where the apostles became a new creation and yet they still hadn't received the heavenly body because they were still alive in their earthly tent. Paul writes that when the earthly tent dissolves there is in store for me a body that the Lord will cloth me with that is eternal as the Lord of Heaven. Hebrews according to the blood covenant declare that a witness of Christ can only receive their eternal inheritance after they physically die. Jesus says you must drink from my bitter cup that is death.

No apostle had recieved their eternal inheritance whilst they were alive and they certainly did not receive their heavenly bodies that they groaned and looked forward to.

The preterist spiritual resurrection theology came about from liberal thinkers who dissected the bible and then proceeded to put it back together in a way that destroyed the faith once given to the saints.

Every time an apostle talked about the resurrection they would always have the anticipation of one day recieving it, meaning that they were not yet in possession of it, from even a spiritual context and they saw the resurrection as an event personal to them, where they will themselves consciously experience it after they die.

Preterist say the resurrection happened in 70 AD. Since most apostles died before this time, then preterist would want us to believe that the apostles who looked earnestly to consciously receive their heavenly body after their earthly dissolved were all self deceived at best.

It would be rather irrational on the part of preterist to even refer to the apostles who had not recieved or experienced the spiritual resurrection according to their 70AD theology. It is like the preterist eating and enjoying the cake that the apostles baked, whilst denying the founding apostles the experience of their tribulations. It is rather shameful on the part of preterist to ride on the back of the apostles so to speak.

I see preterist as a liberalist lie that had been repeated in the seminaries of the mid 70s to late 80s that now has became so abhorrent that it cannot be taken seriously,me cause it destroys the faith and the promise of recieving our eternal inheritance after we die. If this world was all there is to our experience and that we have no hope in reuniting with our Lord to see his face, then everything is a loss.


Preterist believe that when Jesus ascended up into heaven, he reverted to becoming a spirit, how quaint.
 
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jerry kelso

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Paul explains the spiritual body that we will put on at the resurrection is a heavenly body which is in vast contrast to the earthy body. He explains a seed, how it is seeded in the ground and it must die before something else grows from it. Paul calls the heavenly body as the Lord from Heaven, the Holy Ones that accompany with Christ. So Paul always speaks of this groaning to put on this body in the present tense, even after Pentecost after he was in dwelled by the Holy Ghost, because he had yet to receive it.

The spiritual rebirth happened at Pentecost where the apostles became a new creation and yet they still hadn't received the heavenly body because they were still alive in their earthly tent. Paul writes that when the earthly tent dissolves there is in store for me a body that the Lord will cloth me with that is eternal as the Lord of Heaven. Hebrews according to the blood covenant declare that a witness of Christ can only receive their eternal inheritance after they physically die. Jesus says you must drink from my bitter cup that is death.

No apostle had recieved their eternal inheritance whilst they were alive and they certainly did not receive their heavenly bodies that they groaned and looked forward to.

The preterist spiritual resurrection theology came about from liberal thinkers who dissected the bible and then proceeded to put it back together in a way that destroyed the faith once given to the saints.

Every time an apostle talked about the resurrection they would always have the anticipation of one day recieving it, meaning that they were not yet in possession of it, from even a spiritual context and they saw the resurrection as an event personal to them, where they will themselves consciously experience it after they die.

Preterist say the resurrection happened in 70 AD. Since most apostles died before this time, then preterist would want us to believe that the apostles who looked earnestly to consciously receive their heavenly body after their earthly dissolved were all self deceived at best.

It would be rather irrational on the part of preterist to even refer to the apostles who had not recieved or experienced the spiritual resurrection according to their 70AD theology. It is like the preterist eating and enjoying the cake that the apostles baked, whilst denying the founding apostles the experience of their tribulations. It is rather shameful on the part of preterist to ride on the back of the apostles so to speak.

I see preterist as a liberalist lie that had been repeated in the seminaries of the mid 70s to late 80s that now has became so abhorrent that it cannot be taken seriously,me cause it destroys the faith and the promise of recieving our eternal inheritance after we die. If this world was all there is to our experience and that we have no hope in reuniting with our Lord to see his face, then everything is a loss.


Preterist believe that when Jesus ascended up into heaven, he reverted to becoming a spirit, how quaint.

berean777,

Very well put.
The physical resurrection and the full eternal inheritance of spiritual and physical blessings of the restitution of all things is what Paul put his life on the line for the cause of Christ each day led like the sheep to the slaughter (1 Corinthians 15:31 and Romans 8:36).
Also, it amazes me that people think that being a spirit has no kind of substance at all and that cannot be seen or touched or that can talk etc. This seems to me would not harmonize with the fact that God made us in his image; body, mind and soul. People will agree he has a mind and soul but not a body because they believe that God cannot have a body of any kind of substance of any kind because it would mean physical and God would be limited. Yet, God being a spirit would collaborate with the scripture that says the phrase "Spiritual BODY". It would be logical to think that when we have the spiritual body we will be able to see God in his full glory. Anyway, good post. God Bless! Jerry kelso
 
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Berean777

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berean777,

Very well put.
The physical resurrection and the full eternal inheritance of spiritual and physical blessings of the restitution of all things is what Paul put his life on the line for the cause of Christ each day led like the sheep to the slaughter (1 Corinthians 15:31 and Romans 8:36).
Also, it amazes me that people think that being a spirit has no kind of substance at all and that cannot be seen or touched or that can talk etc. This seems to me would not harmonize with the fact that God made us in his image; body, mind and soul. People will agree he has a mind and soul but not a body because they believe that God cannot have a body of any kind of substance of any kind because it would mean physical and God would be limited. Yet, God being a spirit would collaborate with the scripture that says the phrase "Spiritual BODY". It would be logical to think that when we have the spiritual body we will be able to see God in his full glory. Anyway, good post. God Bless! Jerry kelso

You are 100% correct, it is a spiritual body which is distinct from an earthly body. The Lord said

Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see--for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." (Luke 24:39)

Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. (1 John 3:2)

The hope is to be reunited with the Lord and all the apostles groaned to be away from their earthly body and to be present with their Lord in their heavenly bodies.

Preterists rob people of that hope.
 
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You are 100% correct, it is a spiritual body which is distinct from an earthly body. The Lord said

Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see--for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." (Luke 24:39)

Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. (1 John 3:2)

The hope is to be reunited with the Lord and all the apostles groaned to be away from their earthly body and to be present with their Lord in their heavenly bodies.

Preterists rob people of that hope.

berean777,
1 John 3:2 Hallelujah and Amen! Jesus is real! God bless Jerry kelso
 
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