Do you do as GOD and Jesus did or as man directs?

BobRyan · Sep 22, 2015

And of course all of this goes hand in glove with the Acts 23 fact that Paul was a Christian Pharisee as were the other Pharisees of Acts 15.

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QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68624996, member: 235244"]

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

And Paul is a great example of that.

Which is why Paul affirms his own Jewish origin - as not being in conflict with that "one Gospel" -- the "New Covenant" made with the "House of Israel and the house of Judah" Heb 8:6-10 having the "LAW of God written on the mind and heart".

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles starting with clarification of his teaching for his fellow Messianic Jews.

Acts 21
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets

Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.;

Acts 26
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come; 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles;

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening

Acts 24

12 Neither in the temple, nor in the synagogues, nor in the city itself did they find me carrying on a discussion with anyone or causing a riot. 13 Nor can they prove to you the charges of which they now accuse me. 14 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;

15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men. 17 Now after several years I came to bring alms to my nation and to present offerings; 18 in which they found me occupied in the temple,

Acts 23
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Romans 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Philippians 3:5
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Acts 23
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Acts 23
9 And there occurred a great uproar; and some of the scribes of the Pharisaic party stood up and began to argue heatedly, saying, “We find nothing wrong with this man; suppose a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?”

Frogster · Sep 22, 2015

why do you keep posting half of the verse? actually it is good, keep doing it, because the more you do it,. after it has been shown that you do, it hurts your argument, u lose credibility..

You introduced the christian vs non christian pharisee thing, not me,,,hehehehe

Frogster · Sep 22, 2015

those same verses have been covered over and over again...this is boring already, please stimulate me, or i will go...

BobRyan · Oct 2, 2015

Frogster said:
those same verses have been covered over and over again.

Yes and that is the sort of "in depth" -- sola scriptura - response that we often see to those texts.

BobRyan · Oct 2, 2015

Frogster said:
why do you keep posting half of the verse? actually it is good, keep doing it, because the more you do it,. after it has been shown that you do, it hurts your argument, u lose credibility..

ahhh but first you have to actually make a Bible point in response to those texts... there's the rub.

Lulav · Oct 4, 2015

Sophrosyne said:
I find it ironic that Law promoters insist that Paul was instructing his Gentile flock to attend the synagogs on the Sabbath if they whipped him who was a Jew for being there why would they do LESS to non Jews there with the same beliefs.

Yes, these people who obey Jesus:

…18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven......................

I for one don't insist Paul was telling his gentile flock to attend synagogue, he was expected to from the Bishop of Jerusalem's edict but he did his own thing.
And Paul wasn't whipped because of his beliefs in Jesus, it was because of his teaching against the law which many of you believe to be true.

Lulav · Oct 4, 2015

Replied within your post in blue

Wordkeeper said:
Lulav said:

Is that who your authority is? not G-d, not his son?

Click to expand...

Paul's words are God's words:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

What does that have to do with anything? At the time that was written the only 'scripture' was what you call the 'Old' Testement today.

Lulav said:

Do you know that what you refer to as the Sinaitic covenant was actually a marriage contract between G-d and his chosen people? G-d is the one who came up with it because he is G-d. The way you state that is as if G-d is working against himself.

Click to expand...

God did not want a pre nuptial agreement:

Jeremiah 7:22"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.

But Israel did. Bad Israel:

Deuteronomy 5:27‘Go near and hear all that the LORD our God says; then speak to us all that the LORD our God speaks to you, and we will hear and do it.’

????? Bad Israel??? You really don't under stand a marriage covenant do you? The Torah given is called a ketubah. It is a written document of covenant marriage between a man and a woman. In this case, G-d is the man (the husband) and Israel is the wife. It was G-d who drew up the covenant and Israel agree to it. Your reference to Jeremiah doesn't make sense and the Deuteronomy passage is about Israel fearing the L-RD and asking Moses to be the mediator for them.

Lulav said:

Please explain how Israel made an attempt to possess the land? Did you know that it was G-d who told them to recog the land and they came back with the 'evil report' and the majority didn't want to go in? They were punished for 39 years of wandering because of it. That was certainly not by 'human effort' as you understand.

Click to expand...

This was human effort, God was not with Israel, when she tested Him:

Numbers 14:42“Do not go up, or you will be struck down before your enemies, for the LORD is not among you. 43“For the Amalekites and the Canaanites will be there in front of you, and you will fall by the sword, inasmuch as you have turned back from following the LORD. And the LORD will not be with you.” 44But they went up heedlessly to the ridge of the hill country; neither the ark of the covenant of the LORD nor Moses left the camp. 45Then the Amalekites and the Canaanites who lived in that hill country came down, and struck them and beat them down as far as Hormah.

Yes, this was a lesson in not waiting on the L-RD to do what he asked. No one is guiltless of that only Jesus.

Lulav said:

Sarah had learned her lesson? Abraham was allowed? Seems even what you quoted says otherwise. Sarah told Abraham to make her go because her son would not have inheritance with Hagars son. G-d told Abraham to listen to his wife.

Click to expand...

Sarah told Abraham to drive out Hagar because Ishmael oppressed Isaac, just as slaves to law (you) oppress sons of grace (us) today:

Genesis 21:9Now Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, mocking. 10Therefore she said to Abraham, “Drive out this maid and her son, for the son of this maid shall not be an heir with my son Isaac.”

Actually no, you have that backwards. Ishmael mocked Isaac, Ishmael the slaves child who mocked the promised child who in turn would obey G-d. Ishmael today insists they worship the true G-d yet they want to kill every Jew AND Christian. Does that sound like it is the same G-d? Yes those of Ishmael try to oppress those who wish to follow the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Lulav said:

Again with the 'learned lesson'. Are you really saying that G-ds laws are punishment on people he took and cared for as a wife? That these holy laws of the creator were nothing but a punishment? That makes no sense whatsoever. And G-d never allowed them to throw out the law.

Click to expand...

Just as Sarah suffered for disbelieving God, Israel suffered for disbelieving God when she asked for the law to save her, when God had already promised Abraham his Seed would save, not just Israel, but the whole world:

Just how do you think Sarah suffered? Again Israel did not ask for the ketubah, the marriage contract it was at G-d initiative. You really have no understanding of this do you?

Wordkeeper said:

Galatians 3:10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.”

Click to expand...

Well I guess that would include Paul too since he said he was outside the law.

Lulav said:

G-ds laws are a 'mistake'??????Seriously???? Why do you act as if man came up with these laws? They are instructions for life.

Click to expand...

They are oracles, a foreshadow of what God would do, to be revealed to the Gentile, so that he would turn to God. But Israel disobeyed:

Romans 3:3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

Again what you quoted does not have anything to do with the Torah. Paul was speaking of believing in his Jesus.

Wordkeeper · Oct 4, 2015

Lulav said:
Replied within your post in blue

Again what you quoted does not have anything to do with the Torah. Paul was speaking of believing in his Jesus.

Torah was used by God as oracle, a revelation of His goodness, the righteousness of God, what He was going to do to save the world, by sending Jesus as the fulfilment of the revelation, of which Torah was a foreshadowing.

Those who agreed this was the only way, believed God, were humble, would receive salvation.

It's not about doing good things. Our good deeds are like filthy rags. It's about pleasing God, a super, super, super powerful Person. By agreeing the blood of His Son was an adequate payment for the damage sin caused.

That's what saves you. Not Torah.

Wordkeeper · Oct 4, 2015

Double post.

BobRyan · Oct 8, 2015

Lulav said:
Yes, these people who obey Jesus:

…18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven......................

I for one don't insist Paul was telling his gentile flock to attend synagogue, he was expected to from the Bishop of Jerusalem's edict but he did his own thing.
And Paul wasn't whipped because of his beliefs in Jesus, it was because of his teaching against the law which many of you believe to be true.

We see gentiles in the synagogue "Sabbath after Sabbath" in places like Acts 13, Acts 17 and Acts 18.

James "resolves the debate" in Acts 15 by noting that part of the solution can be found in the fact that Christians are found in the synagogues hearing "Moses preached - every Sabbath".

Lulav · Oct 9, 2015

BobRyan said:
We see gentiles in the synagogue "Sabbath after Sabbath" in places like Acts 13, Acts 17 and Acts 18.

James "resolves the debate" in Acts 15 by noting that part of the solution can be found in the fact that Christians are found in the synagogues hearing "Moses preached - every Sabbath".

Acts 13, yes G-d fearers attended synagogue, but those in verse 16 were not sent there by Paul, he is just recognizing them there.
Acts 17 in Thessaloniki again they were already attending synogogue Paul didn't lead them there, same thing for Athens and Berea.
Acts 18, same as above

Sure James and all Jews knew about this and they should have been brought there but Paul did not obey this edict.

Hoshiyya · Oct 9, 2015

Frogster your signature is absolutely insane.

Lulav · Oct 9, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
Frogster your signature is absolutely insane.

Thanks for pointing that out, I had signatures disabled so never saw it. But it seems in line with Froggies understanding.
However for anyone reading it I would tell them that a day consecrated and made Holy by the Creator cannot be abolished and anyone that doesn't want to remember the Sabbath and to in turn remember the Creator is not one of His.

Wordkeeper · Oct 9, 2015

Lulav said:
Thanks for pointing that out, I had signatures disabled so never saw it. But it seems in line with Froggies understanding.
However for anyone reading it I would tell them that a day consecrated and made Holy by the Creator cannot be abolished and anyone that doesn't want to remember the Sabbath and to in turn remember the Creator is not one of His.

Sabbath keeping, like the animal sacrifices, is a foreshadow , oracle, revelation, of future fulfillment of promises. Animal sacrifice, if practised today would be saying the Cross never happened, acceptable blood was never shed for the remission of sin. Sabbath keeping is saying Jesus has not made rest available. Trampling His blood, which paid for this fulfilment, underfoot.

BobRyan · Oct 9, 2015

Wordkeeper said:
Sabbath keeping, like the animal sacrifices, is a foreshadow , oracle, revelation, of future fulfillment of promises. Animal sacrifice, if practised today would be saying the Cross never happened, acceptable blood was never shed for the remission of sin. Sabbath keeping is saying Jesus has not made rest available. Trampling His blood, which paid for this fulfilment, underfoot.

Sadly that is another example of "you quoting you".

Now for the Bible.

"in the new Heavens and New Earth" we have "Sabbath after Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23.

Instead of "keeping Sabbath as God commanded is to trample the blood of His son underfoot" as you invented.

You have free will of course and you are free to make up that sort of stuff - but we encourage the objective unbiased reader to choose between the Is 66 statement in God's Word - and what you freely made up in your post.

"Worship Him who made the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7.

Lulav · Oct 10, 2015

Wordkeeper said:
Sabbath keeping, like the animal sacrifices, is a foreshadow , oracle, revelation, of future fulfillment of promises. Animal sacrifice, if practised today would be saying the Cross never happened, acceptable blood was never shed for the remission of sin. Sabbath keeping is saying Jesus has not made rest available. Trampling His blood, which paid for this fulfilment, underfoot.

I see you too are confused on this issue as well, let's see if I can help with that.

As I said in a previous post

"However for anyone reading it I would tell them that a day consecrated and made Holy by the Creator cannot be abolished and anyone that doesn't want to remember the Sabbath and to in turn remember the Creator is not one of His."

Jesus did not replace the Sabbath, abolish, nor did anything he did take away from it. Keeping it separate on the seventh day, separating the common from the HOLY it imitating what G-d did the creation week. It witnesses to the world which G-d we worship. The Sabbath will still be kept in the kingdom to come, what we are doing right now is witnessing to the creator and practicing if you will for that time ahead.

I'm sure you are familiar with this:

"Do not think that I came to destroy the law, or the prophets: I did not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For amen I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the law, till all things come to pass.
Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Since heaven and earth have not been passed away do you not believe Jesus when he said that nothing from the law would pass either?

How about this:

ISAIAH 2:2-4
2 And it shall come to pass at the end of the days, that the mountain of the house of the L-RD shall be established at the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the L-RD , to the house of the G-d of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the L-RD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Wordkeeper · Oct 10, 2015

Lulav said:
I see you too are confused on this issue as well, let's see if I can help with that.

As I said in a previous post

"However for anyone reading it I would tell them that a day consecrated and made Holy by the Creator cannot be abolished and anyone that doesn't want to remember the Sabbath and to in turn remember the Creator is not one of His."

Jesus did not replace the Sabbath, abolish, nor did anything he did take away from it. Keeping it separate on the seventh day, separating the common from the HOLY it imitating what G-d did the creation week. It witnesses to the world which G-d we worship. The Sabbath will still be kept in the kingdom to come, what we are doing right now is witnessing to the creator and practicing if you will for that time ahead.

I'm sure you are familiar with this:

"Do not think that I came to destroy the law, or the prophets: I did not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For amen I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the law, till all things come to pass.
Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Since heaven and earth have not been passed away do you not believe Jesus when he said that nothing from the law would pass either?

How about this:

ISAIAH 2:2-4
2 And it shall come to pass at the end of the days, that the mountain of the house of the L-RD shall be established at the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the L-RD , to the house of the G-d of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the L-RD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

I've already explained in page 4/5 of this thread that

Matthew 5:18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

is saying:

Luke 16:17"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.IOW, it is saying:It is easier for hell to freeze over than for one of the requirements of the old covenant to be skipped in order for completion, meeting all obligations.

And Jesus met all the obligations of the contract:

John 19:30When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Even today, Jesus's commandment to hear with faith is going out from the New temple, the Body of Christ, the Church.

When Christ comes again, it will not be to teach the way to salvation, or to make atonement, but to judge the living and the dead, to see if they have indeed believed that the atonement is completed:

Galatians 3:1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christwas publicly portrayed as crucified?

Wordkeeper · Oct 10, 2015

BobRyan said:
Sadly that is another example of "you quoting you".

Now for the Bible.

"in the new Heavens and New Earth" we have "Sabbath after Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23.

Instead of "keeping Sabbath as God commanded is to trample the blood of His son underfoot" as you invented.

You have free will of course and you are free to make up that sort of stuff - but we encourage the objective unbiased reader to choose between the Is 66 statement in God's Word - and what you freely made up in your post.

"Worship Him who made the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7.

That's the old covenant, which is abolished, when the superior covenant was given, the son of promise. Now drive away the son of the slave woman.

You have still not explained why Paul rebukes those following the old covenant, why he called it Hagar.

Lulav · Oct 10, 2015

Wordkeeper said:
I've already explained in page 4/5 of this thread that

Matthew 5:18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

is saying:

Luke 16:17"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail. IOW, it is saying:It is easier for hell to freeze over than for one of the requirements of the old covenant to be skipped in order for completion, meeting all obligations.

And Jesus met all the obligations of the contract:

John 19:30When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Even today, Jesus's commandment to hear with faith is going out from the New temple, the Body of Christ, the Church.

When Christ comes again, it will not be to teach the way to salvation, or to make atonement, but to judge the living and the dead, to see if they have indeed believed that the atonement is completed:

Galatians 3:1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christwas publicly portrayed as crucified?

You explained your understanding of it but that doesn't make it correct. As you quoted he said it shall not pass until all is accomplished. You believe he accomplished everything in the Torah and prophets, if that were so we would all be in heaven or somewhere else right now, in fact you and I and everyone here would never have been born because it would all be over.

What he was referring to when he said 'it is finished' was not G-d ways of living, but rather what was written about him in the Torah and Prophets.

Philip found Nathaniel and told him, "We have found the man about whom Moses in
the Law and the Prophets wrote—Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Nazareth."

The whole time he was in ministry do you think they believed that he was just fulfilling them all and then would cancel them out?

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Messiah to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

IOW, the things pertaining to him and what he came for and was to do starting with Genesis 3:15 but not to abolish his fathers instructions for living.

In Psalms the prophecy regarding the prophecies

7 Then I said, "Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. 8 I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart."…

Here's another example from Luke 27:37"For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment."

BobRyan · Oct 10, 2015

Wordkeeper said:
That's the old covenant, which is abolished,

That is not even remotely true.

Is 66:23 is about the post-cross, post-second coming "New heavens and New Earth" - as we all know.

Is 66
22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord

The Bible never says "The old Testament is the old Covenant" rather the Bible says that what "we call" the Old Testament is in fact "scripture" - and "The Holy Spirit says" Heb 3.

Do you do as GOD and Jesus did or as man directs?

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