(moved) 70ad Resurrection -- Covenantal resurrection

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 4, 2015

Wgw said:
The OP and subsequent remarks by "random person" are astonishing. I am particularly shocked to see someone who is ostensibly Lutheran come forward with such an idea. An unflinching faith in bodily resurrection was the reason why most of the apostles and millions of Christians afterwards joyously allowed themselves to be martyred..

completely disagree.. your turning the righteous deeds and the HOPE of these martyrs into a hope in the flesh and the carnal fleshly biological body. . no rather they died knowing their resurrection life and hope were IN CHRIST and that they lived in him, and will, after the destruction of their bodies, continue to live in him
(NOT a hope that one day thousands upon thousands or millions of years in the future that their biological bodies and cells would some how raise out of the dirt in the earth and magically come back together again,, they did not die for this)

and on a side note: If it wasn't for a certain monk, Luther, questioning the teachings and doctrines of the Church at his time,, there would be no Lutheranism.. In the spirit of Luther, I question the so called "orthodox" teaching on the resurrection of billions and billions of physical biological bodies one day (which teaching may be in some main stream churches, but is no where found in the scriptures themselves).

Wgw · Oct 4, 2015

Reformed Lutheran said:
completely disagree.. your turning the righteous deeds and the HOPE of these martyrs into a hope in the flesh and the carnal fleshly biological body

Alas no; these martyrs themselves hoped for it, which we know from their writings (see Ss. Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Polycarp).

The Gnostics on the other hand believed in a spiritual resurrection, ignoring St. Paul ( that the dead should be raised incorruptible). They despised the idea of a physical resurrection. What is more, they were not in general martyred as it was a principle of Gnosticism to not actively seek out martyrdom in the manner of the Orthodox. Gnostics would lie and dissimulate.

The Gnostic horror of all things "physical" combined with their conviction that matter was evil, caused them to abhorr reproduction, so that ironically they are now extinct, despite having not been killed en masse by the Roman pagans.

The teaching of a physical resurrection is Biblical, it was accepted by Luther, and it is to be frank rather more Biblical than your theology of a "covenantal resurrection." The ability of St. Thomas the Apostle to touch the wounds of our Lord confirms the physicality of resurrection; the Pauline epistles confirm it further. It is for this reason that the Nicene Creed requires belief in the physical resurrection of the dead.

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 4, 2015

Martyrs die for their beliefs,, Christians for their faith, some Muslims for their faith (which is false), and other Christians because they think their physical body may raise.. Using a martyrs reasoning for martyrdom, which is personal,, shouldn't be how the doctrines of the church are established, rather it should be the scriptures.

Saint Paul is the one who taught this "covenantal resurrection",, Paul was dealing with Sadducees and Judaizers in the church (not Gnostics), who were denying that there was a ressurrection or after life at all. God is the god of the living, not the dead, Christ told this to,the Jews who denied the resurrection,, Yet when Christ said this Abrahams biological body was dead,, and it has been for thousands of generations. Was Christ wrong, if resurrection is biological, being Abrams body has dissolved into earth,, or was he right and Abraham is living in his resurrected life in Christ (which is bodily,, Just not Abrahams personal biological body, he lives his resurrected life in a new body, the body of the Christ who said "I am the resurrection")

Wgw · Oct 4, 2015

The problem with yournpost isnthat you are confusing the temporary condition of the soul after death with the general Resurrection, which has not transpired (hence the Nicene Creed "I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the World to Come").

Berean777 · Oct 4, 2015

Reformed Lutheran said:
The Disciples in the first century were living in the end of the age (i.e. end of old covenant age), just as all the other saints of the old covenant age that died, they "slept" until the Resurrection that would occur at the consummation of the new covenant and the marriage super of the lamb that was to soon happen (thus bringing in the eternal never ending age of the resurrection, the new covenant age).

When Christ concurred his enemies and destroyed the administration of death (represented by the temple),, this was the sign that death has been concurred and resurrection life is fully complete. All those now in Christ shall never DIE,, just as Jesus said. all the Israel of God (jew and gentile alike,, from Adam to the apostle John) were covenantally transferred and raised up out of the old covenant mode of existence and into the eternal everlasting new covenant mode of existence.

there is now no longer 'hades' or 'the sea',, abodes of the dead where men previously died and their souls slept in the dust of the earth,, the abode of death was destroyed. We who are alive in Christ are alive indeed and we live to the Lord forever more and shall never taste death. physical biological death is not 'death' as defined in scripture, the 'death' that christ was to destroy or the death that we died in old covenant sin. biological death is a natural process of this earthly creation,, covenantal death and spiritual death is not natural, thus Christ came to destroy these works of the devil.

What do you mean the disciples that slept/died until the resurrection that would occur at the consummation of the new covenant?

You are hinting that the founding disciples that died before, on 70AD, where you place the consummation, still fell under the old covenant.

So my question hasn't been answered and still stands. Please answer the question directly in one paragraph as you eloquently put it in your opening thread.

Howwere the disciples that departed before 70AD raised within the context you presented of Christ reigning in their hearts at the Parousa?

Were the founding disciples who died/slept before 70AD alive in Christ?

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 4, 2015

Wgw said:
The problem with yournpost isnthat you are confusing the temporary condition of the soul after death with the general Resurrection, which has not transpired (hence the Nicene Creed "I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the World to Come").

Actually (being I see the resurrection as complete) I'm disregarding, post 70ad, completely any temporary condition of the soul after death..

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire (destroyed) rev 20

There is no longer a temporary abode or state of the dead,, it fell and gave way to,the power of the resurrection, wrought by the work of Christ .

You keep mentioning the nicene creed,, creeds are fine, as a Lutheran, and a former orthodox Presbyterian , I've got (and have read and studied) all the creeds and confessions and catechisms . They are a great tool, but not completely free from error. I can hold to the Heidelberg, cannons of Dort, Westminster standard, common prayer, etc.. But when I study scripture I'm gonna let scripture interpret scripture, not the confessions

Berean777 · Oct 4, 2015

Wgw said:
Alas no; these martyrs themselves hoped for it, which we know from their writings (see Ss. Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Polycarp).

The Gnostics on the other hand believed in a spiritual resurrection, ignoring St. Paul ( that the dead should be raised incorruptible). They despised the idea of a physical resurrection. What is more, they were not in general martyred as it was a principle of Gnosticism to not actively seek out martyrdom in the manner of the Orthodox. Gnostics would lie and dissimulate.

The Gnostic horror of all things "physical" combined with their conviction that matter was evil, caused them to abhorr reproduction, so that ironically they are now extinct, despite having not been killed en masse by the Roman pagans.

The teaching of a physical resurrection is Biblical, it was accepted by Luther, and it is to be frank rather more Biblical than your theology of a "covenantal resurrection." The ability of St. Thomas the Apostle to touch the wounds of our Lord confirms the physicality of resurrection; the Pauline epistles confirm it further. It is for this reason that the Nicene Creed requires belief in the physical resurrection of the dead.

Preterism believes that the Lord when ascending into heaven reverted to being a spirit and that his resurrection body that was shown to the disciples was temporal for the purpose of demonstration.

Preterism is on par with Mary Baker Eddy Christian Scientists as far as Christ's bodily resurrection is concerned and here is their definition which closely resembles preterist views.

Here they are:

Jesus did not ascend into heaven bodily

He did not ascend into heaven. “The eternal Christ and the corporeal Jesus manifest in the flesh, continued until the Master’s ascension, when the human, material concept, or Jesus, disappeared, while the spiritual self, or Christ, continues to exist in the eternal order of divine Science” S&H 334. Again this goes against the testimony of the New Testament and early Christian writings.

Wgw · Oct 4, 2015

Ah, so essentally, docetism. Alas such a view represents such a ludicrous departure from the clear meaning of the text and the faith of the ancient church so as to be entirely worthy of contempt.

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 4, 2015

Berean777 said:
What do you mean the disciples that slept/died until the resurrection that would occur at the consummation of the new covenant?

You are hinting that the founding disciples that died before, on 70AD, where you place the consummation, still fell under the old covenant.

the disciples fell into the most unique time in history,, a period of time where two separate worlds existed and overlapped each other (OC world system and NC word). This 40 year period was the NC saints temporary wondering in the wilderness for 40 years just like the jews of Old wondered in the wilderness for 40 years at that time of the Old Covenant.
the disciples lived in an Already/Not yet time paradigm. the OC was still standing and the NC was in the process of fully bursting fourth.

Heres a biblical example that may help this amazing time in history.. in the OC once per year atonement was made for all the people of Israel by the high Priest. the day of atonement,, the ONLY day in the entire year where the high priest only entered behind the veil and went into the Holy of Holies in the presence of God.. He was to make sacrifice and offering for the sins of the people IN CLEAR view of the people at that altar,, this sacrifice (like christ's) was in clear view,, this is the 'first appearing' of the high priest, then after the sacrifice the high Priest would then disappear from the presence of the people with the blood of the sacrifice and he would ascend behind the veil, into the holy of holies in the presence of God, where the blood would be either be accepted or not accepted by God.. the high priest is performing this work on behalf of the people, the work of the ministry before God, , while the people eagerly awaited, on the other side of the veil (on earth), to see if the high Priest would 'appear the second time', announcing salvation and that God has accepted the sacrifice and had indeed forgiven our sins..
this is all taught in the book of Hebrews..

The point is that Jesus did this work as high Priest just like the high priest of the OC did,, he appeared before the people, made the sacrifice in public display, then he ascended into the holy of holies of heaven where he would perform the work of ministry on behalf of the people,, while the people, the disciples, were eagerly awaiting the high Priest, Jesus', second appearing out of the vail announcing that salvation has come.
The disciples lived in this 40 year time period when Jesus as high priest was behind the veil,, his Parousia was the 'second appearing' which brought resurrection and salvation to all who were eagerly waiting for him,, either alive or asleep.

hope that makes sense in regards to this unique time when the disciples were in between two worlds.

I will answer your other question in a separate post.

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 4, 2015

Wgw said:
Ah, so essentally, docetism. Alas such a view represents such a ludicrous departure from the clear meaning of the text and the faith of the ancient church so as to be entirely worthy of contempt.

Umm,, you are in the "controversial theology" section of the forums,, you know ? If you don't like 'controversial' views then why are you here

Berean777 · Oct 4, 2015

Reformed Lutheran said:
Martyrs die for their beliefs,, Christians for their faith, some Muslims for their faith (which is false), and other Christians because they think their physical body may raise.. Using a martyrs reasoning for martyrdom, which is personal,, shouldn't be how the doctrines of the church are established, rather it should be the scriptures.

Saint Paul is the one who taught this "covenantal resurrection",, Paul was dealing with Sadducees and Judaizers in the church (not Gnostics), who were denying that there was a ressurrection or after life at all. God is the god of the living, not the dead, Christ told this to,the Jews who denied the resurrection,, Yet when Christ said this Abrahams biological body was dead,, and it has been for thousands of generations. Was Christ wrong, if resurrection is biological, being Abrams body has dissolved into earth,, or was he right and Abraham is living in his resurrected life in Christ (which is bodily,, Just not Abrahams personal biological body, he lives his resurrected life in a new body, the body of the Christ who said "I am the resurrection")

Paul said it is sowed a seed that needs to first die before it becomes something else, which ultimately is a real and tangible form, in context to resurrection for the purpose of housing the soul after the terrestrial earthy body dies.

Paul writes it is sowed an earthy body and raised a heavenly as the Lord from Heaven. Paul wrote in present tense to the faithful in Christ long before 70AD. This means that Paul was teaching that those that die in Christ have hope in being raised into their incorruptible bodies. For Paul to make these statements in the present tense to his immediate audience, who would die before 70AD, according to your preterist theology would make Paul a liar and a deceiver at best.

Hebrews written before 70AD declares that no man still in their earthy body can recieve the promise of eternal promise until they first physically die as part of the blood covenant condition. So the Nicene Creed gives that hope that when we sign out with our own blood there is waiting for us a crown of righteousness as Paul would have the believers in Christ believe.

Paul even writes my time of departure is near and now meaning in his immediate future at his execution, there is already laid for him a crown of righteousness that the righteous Lord will give him at his appearing when Paul physically dies. Obviously Paul died before 70AD and he was expecting to recieve this crown of righteousness which is his eternal inheritence from the Lord. How can a person according to your preterist views look consciously to recieve anything for that matter if they cease to consciously exist after physical death.

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 4, 2015

Berean777 said:
How were the disciples that departed before 70AD raised within the context you presented of Christ reigning in their hearts at the Parousa?

Were the founding disciples who died/slept before 70AD alive in Christ?

I never implied that this "christ reigning in the hearts" of the disciples was the resurrection itself.. another poster may have hinted that this was part of it,, but not me.
so, apart from that, I will attempt to answer.

Paul very often spoke of his fellow believers, who died during his life time,, that they died and "slept", their souls being united to Christ and awaiting the Parousia, i.e., salvation and resurrection.
At the Parousia, and resurrection event, both the souls of those who slept and those who were alive at the time of Christ's coming were caught up to heaven, no longer to sleep,, but forever alive with Christ, for the day of salvation had come.

Berean777 · Oct 4, 2015

Reformed Lutheran said:
the disciples fell into the most unique time in history,, a period of time where two separate worlds existed and overlapped each other (OC world system and NC word). This 40 year period was the NC saints temporary wondering in the wilderness for 40 years just like the jews of Old wondered in the wilderness for 40 years at that time of the Old Covenant.
the disciples lived in an Already/Not yet time paradigm. the OC was still standing and the NC was in the process of fully bursting fourth.

Heres a biblical example that may help this amazing time in history.. in the OC once per year atonement was made for all the people of Israel by the high Priest. the day of atonement,, the ONLY day in the entire year where the high priest only entered behind the veil and went into the Holy of Holies in the presence of God.. He was to make sacrifice and offering for the sins of the people IN CLEAR view of the people at that altar,, this sacrifice (like christ's) was in clear view,, this is the 'first appearing' of the high priest, then after the sacrifice the high Priest would then disappear from the presence of the people with the blood of the sacrifice and he would ascend behind the veil, into the holy of holies in the presence of God, where the blood would be either be accepted or not accepted by God.. the high priest is performing this work on behalf of the people, the work of the ministry before God, , while the people eagerly awaited, on the other side of the veil (on earth), to see if the high Priest would 'appear the second time', announcing salvation and that God has accepted the sacrifice and had indeed forgiven our sins..
this is all taught in the book of Hebrews..

The point is that Jesus did this work as high Priest just like the high priest of the OC did,, he appeared before the people, made the sacrifice in public display, then he ascended into the holy of holies of heaven where he would perform the work of ministry on behalf of the people,, while the people, the disciples, were eagerly awaiting the high Priest, Jesus', second appearing out of the vail announcing that salvation has come.
The disciples lived in this 40 year time period when Jesus as high priest was behind the veil,, his Parousia was the 'second appearing' which brought resurrection and salvation to all who were eagerly waiting for him,, either alive or asleep.

hope that makes sense in regards to this unique time when the disciples were in between two worlds.

I will answer your other question in a separate post.

If we take what you mentioned that the founding disciples who died/slept before 70AD were all brought resurrection and salvation, how did they consciously recieve the promise of eternal inheritence and how were they made new in Christ (rebirthd) if they were not present amongst those who were alive in the earthy body?

Did the founding disciples consciously realise that they were raised and saved?

Did the founding disciples recieve their eternal inheritence? If yes, then how? If not, then how were they ALL resurrected and saved?

Berean777 · Oct 4, 2015

Reformed Lutheran said:
I never implied that this "christ reigning in the hearts" of the disciples was the resurrection itself.. another poster may have hinted that this was part of it,, but not me.
so, apart from that, I will attempt to answer.

Paul very often spoke of his fellow believers, who died during his life time,, that they died and "slept", their souls being united to Christ and awaiting the Parousia, i.e., salvation and resurrection.
At the Parousia, and resurrection event, both the souls of those who slept and those who were alive at the time of Christ's coming were caught up to heaven, no longer to sleep,, but forever alive with Christ, for the day of salvation had come.

If those alive and therefore consciously from a spiritual preterist point of view realised at Christ's coming (70AD) were caught up to spiritual heaven, which is a spiritual realisation, then how could the dead who are not consciously present realise spiritually what the living realised, experienced and enjoyed.

Notice i emphasise yet again how would those who had departed before the Parousia (70AD) realise, experience and enjoy this caughting up to heaven?

There seems to be a disparity if we use your model to the high priest entering the Holy of Holies and those who depart before the high priest shows himself on 70AD don't get to witness, experience and enjoy the news that their sins have been forgiven.

Would these who didn't wait around for the high priest still fall under the curse of the Mosaic law which is spiritual death?

Wgw · Oct 4, 2015

Reformed Lutheran said:
Umm,, you are in the "controversial theology" section of the forums,, you know ? If you don't like 'controversial' views then why are you here

In order to scornfully criticize such views (when they are heretical).

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 4, 2015

Berean777 said:
If those alive and therefore consciously from a spiritual preterist point of view realised at Christ's coming (70AD) were caught up to spiritual heaven, which is a spiritual realisation, then how could the dead who are not consciously present realise spiritually what the living realised, experienced and enjoyed.

Notice i emphasise yet again how would those who had departed before the Parousia (70AD) realise, experience and enjoy this caughting up to heaven?

There seems to be a disparity if we use your model to the high priest entering the Holy of Holies and those who depart before the high priest shows himself on 70AD don't get to witness, experience and enjoy the news that their sins have been forgiven.

Would these who didn't wait around for the high priest still fall under the curse of the Mosaic law which is spiritual death?

I'm not sure what your missing here.. Let me simplify as best I can.

The OC saints, from Adam to the apostle James, in death slept in the earth.. At the resurrection they were all raised from the dead and entered the new heaven and earth, were married to Christ , and began their eternal salvation"resurrection" life in the presence of God.. Along with all the rest of the saints (living or dead)

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 4, 2015

Wgw said:
In order to scornfully criticize such views (when they are heretical).

How bout I go to your oriental-orthodox fellowship discussion and scorn you.. Buzz off

Wgw · Oct 4, 2015

Reformed Lutheran said:
How bout I go to your oriental-orthodox fellowship discussion and scorn you.. Buzz off

Alas Controversial Theology is an open forum and not the exclusive province of theological deviance.

Berean777 · Oct 4, 2015

Reformed Lutheran said:
I'm not sure what your missing here.. Let me simplify as best I can.

The OC saints, from Adam to the apostle James, in death slept in the earth.. At the resurrection they were all raised from the dead and entered the new heaven and earth, were married to Christ , and began their eternal salvation"resurrection" life in the presence of God.. Along with all the rest of the saints (living or dead)

I still find it hard to follow.

How would those who departed before 70AD would consciously realise, experience and enjoy the resurrection that they were all raised from the dead and entered the new heaven?

Are you saying that there are living conscious souls in heaven who are reunited with the Lord?

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 4, 2015

Wgw said:
Alas Controversial Theology is an open forum and not the exclusive province of theological deviance.

I'm just saying if your on a heresy witch hunt,, then hunt elsewhere. Why are you wasting your time when you could be doing something more important or actually engaging in discussion instead of scorning . Go to the Muslim websites and scorn them,, they are the ones murdering Christians across the globe

(moved) 70ad Resurrection -- Covenantal resurrection

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