Virgin birth and heretic burnings

You can be damned if the apostasy is culpable. Damnation is a total rejection of God. If you deny him out of ignorance or because of you have been brainwashed, its how culpable you are. Is the denial invincible or do you have fault? God does not damn us, we damn us. We go to hell willingly because we hate God and want nothing to do with him. So it depends on why you would deny this.

I am wondering why you waste any time on this? It is not the first nor only incidence of someone arguing against the Virgin birth. The translation in question could be "young woman", or "virgin". Many, many scholars have discussed this and analyzed it. But it doesn't change the stories in Luke or Matthew, which are not dependent on the OT. They can and do stand on their own. No reason to get worked up over it.

As far as denying the virgin birth, I tend to doubt anyone would be sent to hell for not accepting it. Excommunicated in the Catholic Church, sure. I don't see it as having any direct bearing on our Salvation, or essential to being a disciple of Jesus.

Theatreguy18 said:

Ok I just read the most disturbing article http://www.israelitesunite.com/the-virgin-birth-truth.html this website claims to be a kinda website for a sect of messianic Jews it's down right sicking so my question is if a " Christian denys the virgin birth are they damned " I asked a TLM priest and he said most likely they are​

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To deny any article of the creed is to lose the virtue of faith, so say Aquinas and others. So the priest is probably right, it doesn't look good...

"For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: 'Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.'" - CCC, 1857

Denying the virgin birth is grave matter. So it meets at least one of the above conditions.
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Theatreguy18 said:

Ok I just read the most disturbing article http://www.israelitesunite.com/the-virgin-birth-truth.html this website claims to be a kinda website for a sect of messianic Jews it's down right sicking so my question is if a " Christian denys the virgin birth are they damned " I asked a TLM priest and he said most likely they are​

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That is one of the most hateful websites I have seen in a long, long time. They claim that Jews use the blood of children to bake "Passover bread". That's one of the oldest, most hateful lies I know about.

Here's a big piece of advice regarding it: If they claim that water is wet, double check. You can't believe anything they say.

Theatreguy18 said:

That was my logic to and if you deny the virgin birth you deny the diety of Jesus

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I agree that we cannot deny the virgin birth.

However, denying the deity of Jesus is a different matter.

mark46 said:

I agree that we cannot deny the virgin birth.

However, denying the deity of Jesus is a different matter.

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Jesus is the Son of God who, by the Holy Spirit, became incarnate inside the womb of the Virgin Mary. If he would have had two human biological parents he would not be God. So it does deny Jesus' divinity to deny the virgin birth.

We don't disagree on dogma. However, I believe that you limit God's sovereignty by saying that the only way for Jesus to be divine would be by a virgin birth. God might have chosen many other different ways. Of course, he did not.

mark46 said:

We don't disagree on dogma. However, I believe that you limit God's sovereignty by saying that the only way for Jesus to be divine would be by a virgin birth. God might have chosen many other different ways. Of course, he did not.

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I'm limited by what we know about God. Are you saying that you believe that God can be God and not be God at the same time?

LivingWordUnity said:

I'm limited by what we know about God. Are you saying that you believe that God can be God and not be God at the same time?

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Of course not.

to preach against the Virgin Birth is to preach heresy
heresy is a serious sin
so if they are culpable for this sin, then they are in a state of mortal sin

we have to remember, that if a person suffers from invincible ignorance they are not culpable for that sin of heresy
so we should not judge the individual

Theatreguy18 said:

To deny the virgin birth is to deny the divinity of Jesus therefor reject him rejecting Jesus = damnation

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I agree with Mark on this, you can deny the virgin birth but still believe in the Divinity of Christ

Rhamiel said:

to preach against the Virgin Birth is to preach heresy
heresy is a serious sin
so if they are culpable for this sin, then they are in a state of mortal sin

we have to remember, that if a person suffers from invincible ignorance they are not culpable for that sin of heresy
so we should not judge the individual


I agree with Mark on this, you can deny the virgin birth but still believe in the Divinity of Christ

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I don't think there is anyone who denies the virgin birth that still believes in Jesus' divinity, at least not in how we define God. I'm sure that someone like that would define "divinity" the way that pagans have "lesser gods".

In one of his books, Pope Benedict XVI talked about the motivation behind the modernist rejection of the virgin birth.

He said:

"Is what we profess in the Creed true, then?—'I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God...[who] by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary'?

"The answer is an unequivocal yes. Karl Barth pointed out that there are two moments in the story of Jesus when God intervenes directly in the material world: the virgin birth and the resurrection from the tomb, in which Jesus did not remain, nor see corruption. These two moments are a scandal to the modern spirit. God is 'allowed' to act in ideas and thoughts, in the spiritual domain—but not in the material. That is shocking. He does not belong there. But that is precisely the point: God is God and he does not operate merely on the level of ideas." - Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI), Jesus of Nazareth - Vol III, pp. 56-57

Denying this would be heresy I would say they go to Hell.

football5680 said:

Denying this would be heresy I would say they go to Hell.

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Where they belong and where Christ said he would throw them. Sorry if that hurts liberal feelings - not.

Mikhael Disciple of Christ said:

Where they belong and where Christ said he would throw them. Sorry if that hurts liberal feelings - not.

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My point, which I didn't explain in full, is that believing in doctrines is not the route to heaven. I don't find Jesus emphasizing the understanding or accepting of doctrines as the way to the Kingdom. Rather, he emphasizes, and I mean over and over again in many ways, that faith is what he is looking for. In some instances, such as with the Centurion, faith wins out over what the person may believe. Jesus sees in this Roman soldier "great faith", greater faith than anyone in Israel (including his disciples?). He doesn't say that he finds great acceptance of doctrines in the man.

I think we do a disservice to the faith, and to those honestly seeking the Kingdom through the Church, to place the emphasis on accepting a laundry list of beliefs, rather than on placing our faith and trust in Jesus as the way to the Kingdom. Jesus tells us, almost incessantly at times (perhaps to get through to those thick-skulled disciples) that it is love of God and love of neighbor that opens the gates. And that the failure to do so will open other, less inviting gates. Faith evidenced by right action, not by reciting a list of religious codes.

Why is it so difficult for so many people to see and understand that? To me it is as if they read or hear the Gospels but with little appreciation for their meaning, which Christ presents to us through words, deeds and examples. What more do you want?

Jesus taught that we need to have faith in Him.

“I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.” – Jesus (John 11:25-26)

The Church condemns the heresy of religious indifferentism.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: