Pictures of Jesus.

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Wgw

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The purpose of the icons was about contextualization

No, it was to honor the reality of the Incarnation. Contextualization was in the mind of the eigth century church largely a process of translation of scripture.
 
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Wgw

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de-emphasize is not to destroy but keep the objects, just not as emphasized. Also let's emphasize the biblical things first above the non-biblical things.

The NT was written under the authority of not just the Church but the 1st century Church which needs to be the distinction because the Church as we see it today is vastly different than what it looked like in the first century. The early church also used contextual forms to show the gospel that made sense to the audience as all contextual messages should. For example icons told a story and taught scripture and as such were meaningful to the audience. Today they still tell that story but that focused is trumped by the focus of upholding tradition. So the icons no longer magnify the gospel but rather their own tradition which is a lopsided. The forms we do use should always magnify the gospel first before anything else.

The purpose of the icons was about contextualization but today we cannot call almost 2000 year old practices contextualization because the context (audience, culture, time, etc...) have all changed; instead it is called tradition and tradition does not communication the same message. Fighting for tradition for the sake of tradition only magnifies ourselves, not God and fighting for tradition for the sake of the gospel is getting the cart before the horse.

Now onto your final point, the Orthodox Church has existed longer than any other denomination and will continue to exist after all other denominations have vanished. The Holy Tradition of the Orthodox Church was received from the Apostles and is immutable; its preservation guaranteed by God himself (Matthew 16:17-19). Heterodox can use or not use icons according to their beliefs, but for Orthodox Christians and those moving towards Orthodoxy, iconography is an integral part of the living faith, a faith that has survived milotant Roman Paganism, militant Islam, militant atheism in the USSR, which now again confronts militant Islam, one which has also outlasted every heresy.
 
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Wgw

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Funny, one then prays into the air, as a shadow boxer beats wind. To what end? Go to the One who can provide information.

Messages apparently received from on high are immediately reported to ones priest as ninety nine times out of a hundred they are of demonic origin (perhaps nine hundred ninety nine times out of a thousand). The Orthodox admit to the possibility of a person receiving such information (which is technically prophecy), which is more than cessasionist Protestants admit to, but we subject such incidents to the most intense scrutiny to protect people from being misled (which they almost always are).
 
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prodromos

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Funny, one then prays into the air, as a shadow boxer beats wind. To what end? Go to the One who can provide information.
For the same reason I might ask you to pray for me. I'm not seeking information from you, just your prayers.
 
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Take out your Bible and read 1 Corinthians 12:27, which tells us that we are all members of the Body of Christ. Then flip pages over to John 3:16, which tells us that through faith we have eternal life with Christ.

When you combine this information it should become obvious that true believers don't die, they join the lord in heaven. Nobody is communicating with the dead, they are communicating with fellow members of Christ's body.

No. Communicating with the dead whether they be Christian or not is forbidden. Nowhere do we see this practice ever take place in the New Testament and the Old Testament clearly condemns the contacting of necromancers so as to consult the dead. In addition, Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God the Father and man. So going to another mediator is going against what the Bible plainly says.

...
 
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sculleywr

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Please do not accuse me falsely of something I do not believe. I believe Jesus is God. I don't need a false image of Christ to know that Jesus is God. The Scriptures tell me that Jesus is the second person of the Godhead; It is not some picture. Pictures are not divinely inspired. It is Scripture that is divinely inspired.



Does the Bible mention certain symbols? Yes. But symbols or icons outside of Scripture, such as drawings of Jesus do not exist.



So anyone can draw whatever image they like of Christ and it is a true representation of Him? Sorry. That doesn't make any sense. That would be like me drawing a picture of Abraham Lincoln so as to represent George Washington. It would be a lie.



Sorry, I disagree. My authority is the Word of God which is against folks creating false images of God.



So you believe that nobody is worshiping God by picturing Him in a false way as they worship Him? What gives you that idea?



God has intended His Word to have a very specific meaning when it comes to His Commands. Somebody going beyond what God meant in regards to His Commands (that is obvious) will not be able to throw down the "interpretation card" when they face God. They will be without excuse.



Verses please.



Not everyone is going to agree with you in what you believe.



Prove that this is true with the Bible.


...
The problem is YOU do not determine that an image of Christ is a false image. An image of Christ is an image of Christ if the intention of the iconographer intends it to be an image of Christ. I don't need the Bible to prove that. That is the nature of all art.

Therefore, all images of Christ, whether they be physically perfectly accurate or not, are TRUE images of Christ. And you never answer that point.

It doesn't matter that they didn't know what Christ looked like exactly, because NO image is a perfect representation of the person pictured. I could use a professional studio set, with a full 3d HD camera, and use it to take a 360 degree HD image of you, and the image they make will not be a perfect representation of you. It is STILL a true image of you.

In fact, YOU are an image of God. You are an Icon of Christ. You are a physical representation of God, made in the Icon of God.

So are YOU a false Icon?
 
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The problem is YOU do not determine that an image of Christ is a false image. An image of Christ is an image of Christ if the intention of the iconographer intends it to be an image of Christ. I don't need the Bible to prove that. That is the nature of all art.

Therefore, all images of Christ, whether thelooy be physically perfectly accurate or not, are TRUE images of Christ. And you never answer that point.

It doesn't matter that they didn't know what Christ looked like exactly, because NO image is a perfect representation of the person pictured. I could use a professional studio set, with a full 3d HD camera, and use it to take a 360 degree HD image of you, and the image they make will not be a perfect representation of you. It is STILL a true image of you.

In fact, YOU are an image of God. You are an Icon of Christ. You are a physical representation of God, made in the Icon of God.m

So are YOU a false Icon?

That's rediculous. No one looks like the man Christ Jesus nor are we all icons of him. How is it that there are so many aspects of your faith that distract you from Jesus Christ? Icons, Mary, paintings, photos and sculptures. They all appear to the rest of the Body of Christ as diversions from the real thing. We have no idea what He looked like. And suppose a picture you choose to represent Him is seen by someone who was tramatized by a person who was hurt either physically or emotionally by one that your picture strongly resembles?
The most preposterous view held by those of your faith is that we are heritics for not having icons, that in so doing we are telling the world that we do not believe He came in the flesh.

You claim that your denomination is the oldest...that all believers sprang from and protestants rebelled against it. Isn't it just as likely that there were far more believers than is supposed by that statement and they were around but you did not recognize them, nor they you due to the many pagan identifiers you are dragging around with you and that they simply saw you as pagans?
 
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DamianWarS

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Icons are entirely biblical. De-emphasis is simply soft iconoclasm, an attempt to dilute the pure unadulterated faith of the Apostles to suit the capricious sensibilities of liberal Protestantism.

You seem to be taking this very specifically to only iconography which was not my intent but rather all superficial tradition. But I'm interested in knowin how iconography can be called biblical? One of your replies suggested that icons are required in faith. I have trouble with that statement and is part of the reason I have such concern over non-biblical values blurring the gospel. Could you clear this up for me?

You enjoy talking about the rich history of the orthodox church but really fail to grasp what is tradition and what is not seemingly equalizing it with scripture. After reading your posts it frightens me to think that your views are if one is not orthodox then one is not christian. Do you care to clear this up because I do not value iconography nor have I ever set foot in a Orthodox Church, do you still call be a brother in Christ?
 
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The problem is YOU do not determine that an image of Christ is a false image. An image of Christ is an image of Christ if the intention of the iconographer intends it to be an image of Christ. I don't need the Bible to prove that. That is the nature of all art.

I didn't write the Bible. So you are correct. It is not me that condemns the creation of false images or idols of God. The Bible clearly explains that all on it's own for all who want to hear. Also, the things of this world (Such as the art world) are not the same as the Word of God. We look to the Bible for our spiritual authority and not artwork.

Therefore, all images of Christ, whether they be physically perfectly accurate or not, are TRUE images of Christ.

Not all images of Jesus looked the same. So they cannot all be true unless you believe Jesus shape shifted to look like all the different representations in artists minds.

And you never answer that point.

I believe I have.

It doesn't matter that they didn't know what Christ looked like exactly, because NO image is a perfect representation of the person pictured. I could use a professional studio set, with a full 3d HD camera, and use it to take a 360 degree HD image of you, and the image they make will not be a perfect representation of you. It is STILL a true image of you.

I do not need to be cloned so as to have an exact duplicate version of myself so as to have an image of me (Whereby people would recognize me). It depends on the realism of the art and or the photo. If it is a drawing or photo that exaggerates or symbolizes the features of the face of Christ, then that would not be an accurate picture of Him. An image is exactly that. A realistic photo, drawing, or painting lets us know that it can pass off as looking like someone else. So when a person looks at it, they will say..... "Oh hey, look.... that is Abraham Lincoln." It does not have to be a true image of Abraham Lincoln. That is not what the Commandment is talking about. The Commandment is talking about making any image that falsely represents God.

In fact, YOU are an image of God. You are an Icon of Christ. You are a physical representation of God, made in the Icon of God.

So are YOU a false Icon?

As for being made in the image of God: What does the Scriptures say? Well, it is says we are created in the "likeness" of God. It does not say we are an exact image.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26).


...
 
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Wgw

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That's rediculous. No one looks like the man Christ Jesus nor are we all icons of him. How is it that there are so many aspects of your faith that distract you from Jesus Christ? Icons, Mary, paintings, photos and sculptures. They all appear to the rest of the Body of Christ as diversions from the real thing. We have no idea what He looked like. And suppose a picture you choose to represent Him is seen by someone who was tramatized by a person who was hurt either physically or emotionally by one that your picture strongly resembles?
The most preposterous view held by those of your faith is that we are heritics for not having icons, that in so doing we are telling the world that we do not believe He came in the flesh.

You claim that your denomination is the oldest...that all believers sprang from and protestants rebelled against it. Isn't it just as likely that there were far more believers than is supposed by that statement and they were around but you did not recognize them, nor they you due to the many pagan identifiers you are dragging around with you and that they simply saw you as pagans?

Actually no, Roman Catholics separated from the Orthodox, and Protestants in turn separated from the Roman Catholics for reasons which were not unjustifiable (after the experience of the inquisition, the Borgias and Pope Julius II, followed by Leo X's indulgence hawking, I would have left I expect). The main problem is that the early Protestants (Luther, Calvin, Knox, and especially Cranmer) were vile human beings, generally lacking in theological erudition as well as personal holiness.
 
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GoingByzantine

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No. Communicating with the dead whether they be Christian or not is forbidden. Nowhere do we see this practice ever take place in the New Testament and the Old Testament clearly condemns the contacting of necromancers so as to consult the dead. In addition, Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God the Father and man. So going to another mediator is going against what the Bible plainly says.

...

Do you really believe Christ abandons people to death? That the Body of Christ somehow ceases when we physically die?

The bible clearly states that in Christ we have life, the bible also states that through this beautiful union with God, we are not slaves to the laws of the OT. You are so hung up on the OT law about "praying to the dead" that you are failing to see that the kind of death that the OT is talking about, no longer exists for believers.
 
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Wgw

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No. Communicating with the dead whether they be Christian or not is forbidden. Nowhere do we see this practice ever take place in the New Testament and the Old Testament clearly condemns the contacting of necromancers so as to consult the dead. In addition, Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God the Father and man. So going to another mediator is going against what the Bible plainly says.

...

Alas, no. The Orthodox Church is wmpowered by apostokic succession to determine the correct interpretation of the Bible, and since we have sought the intercession of the saints since Pentecost, then it is permitted.
 
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Wgw

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You seem to be taking this very specifically to only iconography which was not my intent but rather all superficial tradition. But I'm interested in knowin how iconography can be called biblical? One of your replies suggested that icons are required in faith. I have trouble with that statement and is part of the reason I have such concern over non-biblical values blurring the gospel. Could you clear this up for me?

You enjoy talking about the rich history of the orthodox church but really fail to grasp what is tradition and what is not seemingly equalizing it with scripture. After reading your posts it frightens me to think that your views are if one is not orthodox then one is not christian. Do you care to clear this up because I do not value iconography nor have I ever set foot in a Orthodox Church, do you still call be a brother in Christ?

The Orthodox faith is the faith of the Apostles; it predates the composition of the four written Gospels; the singular Gospel which these narrate is at the very center of Holy Tradition; the books of the Bible surround this, along with the other aspects of Tradition; there are no superficial components to Holy Tradition (there are ethnic traditions that define things like architecture, music and so on, for example Russian church music and onion domes as an architectural element, but these are not superficial, rather, they amount to inculturation of a sort, in that they represent the impact of the Orthodox faith on a society over many centuries).

Iconography is Biblical; aside from the examples of it in the Old Testament (in the decoration of the Ark, and the Temple), iconography conveys the reality of the incarnation and is entirely indispensible. To not have icons of Christ is to deny the incarnation, which is integral to the Gospel message. Orthodox theology (specifically Soteriology) is inherently incarnational: God became man, restoring our corrupted nature to its precorrupt condition, and then glorifying it.

Now regarding your status as a Christian, you are of course that and my brother, which is why your contempt for the ancient Church, which is properly your home, is distressing. You may or may not be baptized; the efficacy of non-Orthodox sacraments is a very complex subject (in general, they are not efficacious, but manh converts can be received via chrismation). Regarding your soteriological status, if you are asking me whether you are saved or not, the answer is that I do not know; I still would not know with certainty even if you were Orthodox. I certainly hope you are saved; its entirely wrong to wish eternal torment on someone. We do not believe in sola fide or unconditional election and do not presume to know what will transpire on the dreadful day of judgement.
 
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Wgw

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As for my point above about "realistic artwork" versus "artwork that is exaggerated":
Check this out.




Source Used:
Educational Graphic Novel Called: "Understanding Comics."
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Comics-Invisible-Scott-McCloud/dp/006097625X/

This is somewhat of a non-point since it ignores the reason most iconography is stylized (which is to express the spiritual dimension); that being said Byzantine iconography is not "cartoony" or diagrammatic. Coptic and Syriac iconography usually is, but not to the point of obscuring recognizeable characteristics.

Interestingly, the oldest icons, such as the icon of Christ Pantocrator at St. Catherine's Monastery in Sinai, which is built around the burning bush (which after ceasing to burn, has grown to a massive size over the past three millenia), are not stylized but are in a more realistic style.
 
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Wgw

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didn't write the Bible. So you are correct. It is not me that condemns the creation of false images or idols of God. The Bible clearly explains that all on it's own for all who want to hear. Also, the things of this world (Such as the art world) are not the same as the Word of God. We look to the Bible for our spiritual authority and

Fortunately the Orthodox actually did write the New Testament (together with the Roman Catholics, who alas became separated from us in 1054), and consequently have the autority to differentiate between the false worship of idols and the valid and legitimate veneration of icons. Orthodoxy condemns idolatry; the offering of fruit to idola of Hindu deities or statues of Buddha, or in more unpleasant cases, animal sacrifice of the sort that was offered to Roman deities, is entirely repulsive to us. Icons of Christ are not localized avatars or manifestations of Godmand are not worshipped.

The Word of God is Christ, who became incarnate (see John 1:1-14); because of the incarnation, images of Christ are permitted. God the Father neither became incarnate, nor assumed a visual form like the Holy Spirit at the Baptism of Christ or on Pentecost; as such we do not depict the Father visually (this would also be superfluous given the words of Christ).
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Threads like this are the result of reading your Bible primarily as a law or rule book (many Christians do just that); then they try and fix the whole lot of us. I find this whole concept quite silly really.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Fortunately the Orthodox actually did write the New Testament (together with the Roman Catholics, who alas became separated from us in 1054), and consequently have the autority to differentiate between the false worship of idols and the valid and legitimate veneration of icons. Orthodoxy condemns idolatry; the offering of fruit to idola of Hindu deities or statues of Buddha, or in more unpleasant cases, animal sacrifice of the sort that was offered to Roman deities, is entirely repulsive to us. Icons of Christ are not localized avatars or manifestations of Godmand are not worshipped.

The Word of God is Christ, who became incarnate (see John 1:1-14); because of the incarnation, images of Christ are permitted. God the Father neither became incarnate, nor assumed a visual form like the Holy Spirit at the Baptism of Christ or on Pentecost; as such we do not depict the Father visually (this would also be superfluous given the words of Christ).

Indeed. It is much safer to take the opinion of the first Seven Ecumenical Counsels; filled with enlightened and inspired theologians who have not been tainted by a thousand years of modernity over that of one or two self proclaimed experts on this particular topic.
 
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Wgw

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I would say that rather it is an attempt to interpret the rules that are present in the Bible without the aid of and against the traditions of the Church. Its a greatly impious thing to sit down with a Bible and read, for example, the Mosaic legislation, in order to compile a list of Christian practices which violate it.
 
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sculleywr

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I didn't write the Bible. So you are correct. It is not me that condemns the creation of false images or idols of God. The Bible clearly explains that all on it's own for all who want to hear. Also, the things of this world (Such as the art world) are not the same as the Word of God. We look to the Bible for our spiritual authority and not artwork.



Not all images of Jesus looked the same. So they cannot all be true unless you believe Jesus shape shifted to look like all the different representations in artists minds.



I believe I have.



I do not need to be cloned so as to have an exact duplicate version of myself so as to have an image of me (Whereby people would recognize me). It depends on the realism of the art and or the photo. If it is a drawing or photo that exaggerates or symbolizes the features of the face of Christ, then that would not be an accurate picture of Him. An image is exactly that. A realistic photo, drawing, or painting lets us know that it can pass off as looking like someone else. So when a person looks at it, they will say..... "Oh hey, look.... that is Abraham Lincoln." It does not have to be a true image of Abraham Lincoln. That is not what the Commandment is talking about. The Commandment is talking about making any image that falsely represents God.



As for being made in the image of God: What does the Scriptures say? Well, it is says we are created in the "likeness" of God. It does not say we are an exact image.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26).


...
No. I said it is not you that IDENTIFIES them as false. Scripture does NOT say they are false images. You do.

Also, in the Greek, the word used for "Image of God" is "Eikon", or Icon, also translated as "Image". Likeness is a mistranslation. That's the exact word the New Testament used when quoting it, and the word used in the Greek Septuagint.

It did not say that we are an exact image. It says we are an IMAGE of God. Not perfect. The only perfect image is Christ. But Christ became man, Christ is God, and man can be depicted in an image. The logic is perfect:

1. Christ is God
2. Christ is man
3. Man can be depicted in an image.
Therefore, God can be depicted in an image of Christ.

Scripture's reason that God could not be depicted is that nobody has seen God. However, John 1 establishes the end of that reason. God the Word can be depicted in an image because we saw Him. We beheld Him in all of His glory.

Again, you do not have the power to determine if an image is a false image. If you do, you must be God. YOu are not God, therefore, you have no authority. Since Scripture does not call them false images, they are true images.
 
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