Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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vinsight4u said:

They sing the song, same type of situation in Revelation 14.

one group sings....other group it applies to....learns the
song

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The text does not say that.

n2thelight said:

Up for discussion,what part of scripture interpretation I got wrong,and why?

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Your theories are too far off to even consider.

Postvieww said:

Rev 5:6 RSV And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth; 7 and he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. 8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; 9 and they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals,
for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God
from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth.”
Been over this before elders are not men they are created beings just like the beasts. If not you have redeemed beasts in the KJV.The beasts and the elders sung the new song.

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Is the Greek not specific enough to distinguish between "us" or "them" or "men?" Ah! I see. What we have is a difference in the Greek Texts. Some say "Us" and some use "them" . Again you are right: this singing includes the 4 beasts. However, can we find even one more scripture where created beings are called "elders?" Is it possible that the elders are men and the 4 beasts just join in on the song?

I have never seen a scripture where created beings are made priests either.

Postvieww said:

The 4 beasts aren't redeemed either. Who said fallen angels?

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Bible2 said the 24 elders could be angels,

Angels are only "ministering spirits", or "Servants", they can never be a "Son of God" or "Reign" with Jesus.

That desire caused Satan downfall.

iamlamad said:

Is the Greek not specific enough to distinguish between "us" or "them" or "men?" Ah! I see. What we have is a difference in the Greek Texts. Some say "Us" and some use "them" . Again you are right: this singing includes the 4 beasts. However, can we find even one more scripture where created beings are called "elders?" Is it possible that the elders are men and the 4 beasts just join in on the song?

I have never seen a scripture where created beings are made priests either.

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Is the Greek not specific enough to distinguish between "us" or "them" or "men?" Ah! I see. What we have is a difference in the Greek Texts. Yes you taught me well. If we can use another version to get "departure" this shouldn't be a problem. The difference here is the KJV creates a doctrinal problem, the 4 beasts can't be redeemed. We don't have that issue with the RSV. In this case,for the reasons stated it appears to be the more accurate translation.
Some say "Us" and some use "them" . Again you are right: this singing includes the 4 beasts. However, can we find even one more scripture where created beings are called"elders?". Do you not believe there are different rankings in God's heavenly host. All angels are not created equal. How many scriptures can you find where satan is called Lucifer, I believe there is only one. Is it possible that the elders are men and the 4beasts just join in on the song? Not likely, let's just stick with what it says and not use Lamadology on it.

I have never seen a scripture where created beings are made priests either.
If you read closely you will see they are not priests that will be us who are redeemed, the "them" in the verse.

Can it be? Lamad says I have been right on two SMALL points in one week. Praise God for even the small miracles.

Short Timer said:

Bible2 said the 24 elders could be angels,

Angels are only "ministering spirits", or "Servants", they can never be a "Son of God" or "Reign" with Jesus.

That desire caused Satan downfall.

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Read the passage carefully I don't believe you are seeing what the KJV says.The 24 and the beasts have harps.The 24 and the beasts sung a new song. Verse 9 says both the 24 and the beasts are redeemed.It's your preconceived idea that the elders are redeemed human beings that won't let see what the KJV actually says. I agree beasts cannot be redeemed by his blood that's why I believe the RSV is the more accurate translation. Other than the word elders what evidence can you show to back your point. If you accept the KJV in this case you have a contradiction. With the RSV you do not. I use the term created beings rather than angels there are more included in the heavenly host than just angels.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Postvieww said:

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Read the passage carefully I don't believe you are seeing what the KJV says.The 24 and the beasts have harps.The 24 and the beasts sung a new song. Verse 9 says both the 24 and the beasts are redeemed.It's your preconceived idea that the elders are redeemed human beings that won't let see what the KJV actually says. I agree beasts cannot be redeemed by his blood that's why I believe the RSV is the more accurate translation. Other than the word elders what evidence can you show to back your point. If you accept the KJV in this case you have a contradiction. With the RSV you do not. I use the term created beings rather than angels there are more included in the heavenly host than just angels.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

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It would certainly not be the first time I chose a different translation over the KJV.

Postvieww said:

Is the Greek not specific enough to distinguish between "us" or "them" or "men?" Ah! I see. What we have is a difference in the Greek Texts. Yes you taught me well. If we can use another version to get "departure" this shouldn't be a problem. The difference here is the KJV creates a doctrinal problem, the 4 beasts can't be redeemed. We don't have that issue with the RSV. In this case,for the reasons stated it appears to be the more accurate translation.
Some say "Us" and some use "them" . Again you are right: this singing includes the 4 beasts. However, can we find even one more scripture where created beings are called"elders?". Do you not believe there are different rankings in God's heavenly host. All angels are not created equal. How many scriptures can you find where satan is called Lucifer, I believe there is only one. Is it possible that the elders are men and the 4beasts just join in on the song? Not likely, let's just stick with what it says and not use Lamadology on it.

I have never seen a scripture where created beings are made priests either.
If you read closely you will see they are not priests that will be us who are redeemed, the "them" in the verse.

Can it be? Lamad says I have been right on two SMALL points in one week. Praise God for even the small miracles.

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It appears that "US" is not what was written when John wrote. Yes, in this case I am agreeing with you. I have no problem saying "I was wrong" when I am wrong.

KJV strikes again! Now, if you could agree that KJV missed it on 2 Thes. 2:3! I won't hold my breath!

iamlamad said:

It appears that "US" is not what was written when John wrote. Yes, in this case I am agreeing with you. I have no problem saying "I was wrong" when I am wrong.

KJV strikes again! Now, if you could agree that KJV missed it on 2 Thes. 2:3! I won't hold my breath!

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I don't believe 2 Thess creates a doctrinal delima except for the pretrib doctrine. I still believe apostasy is in keeping with most translations as well as other verses such as 1Tim 4:1. I use KJV mostly because I believe overall it's very good but I'm not KJV only. Please do not hold your breath I'm not convinced yet

Postvieww said:

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Read the passage carefully I don't believe you are seeing what the KJV says.The 24 and the beasts have harps.The 24 and the beasts sung a new song. Verse 9 says both the 24 and the beasts are redeemed.It's your preconceived idea that the elders are redeemed human beings that won't let see what the KJV actually says. I agree beasts cannot be redeemed by his blood that's why I believe the RSV is the more accurate translation. Other than the word elders what evidence can you show to back your point. If you accept the KJV in this case you have a contradiction. With the RSV you do not. I use the term created beings rather than angels there are more included in the heavenly host than just angels.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

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Re 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Re 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Would you care to explain where these four beast were on earth and why they were accountable for their sins and had to be redeemed by the blood of the lamb????

Re 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Re 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

iamlamad said:

It appears that "US" is not what was written when John wrote. Yes, in this case I am agreeing with you. I have no problem saying "I was wrong" when I am wrong.

KJV strikes again! Now, if you could agree that KJV missed it on 2 Thes. 2:3! I won't hold my breath!

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By the way, I did not TOTALLY agree with you. I still think these elders are saved humans, not elders, just because they are called "elders."

iamlamad said:

By the way, I did not TOTALLY agree with you. I still think these elders are saved humans, not elders, just because they are called "elders."

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Should have known you couldn't stand it for long?Do you believe "the sons of God" in this passage are human just because they are called sons of God? .
Genesis 6:4King James Version (KJV)
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Short Timer said:

Re 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Re 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Would you care to explain where these four beast were on earth and why they were accountable for their sins and had to be redeemed by the blood of the lamb????

Re 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Re 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

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The four beasts had no sins to be accountable for, that's the whole point. Only the KJV translation makes it sound that way. I believe it is an incorrect translation on this point? Note elders and beasts often together doing the same things.

Postvieww said:

Should have known you couldn't stand it for long?Do you believe "the sons of God" in this passage are human just because they are called sons of God? .
Genesis 6:4King James Version (KJV)
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

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I don't believe angels cohabited with women and created giants.

iamlamad said:

Good try, but still not truth. You can try and separate the catching up from the Day of the Lord, but they are tied together and cannot be separated: one is the trigger for the other. Look at what Paul tells us happens first: it is the dead in Christ rising. But it will only be a split second after that those alive are caught up. And at the very moment the dead in Christ rise, that event causes a worldwide earthquake, which is Paul's sudden destruction - which is the start of the Day of the Lord. These are a CHAIN of events tied together just as the links in a chain are together and cannot be separated.

DON'T Miss this: the dead in Christ rising causes a worldwide earthquake that IS the start of the Day of the Lord. And these events are tied to the 6th seal in Revelation. All these events come "as a thief in the night, because this chain of events begins when Christ descends - as a thief in the night - at a time no one knows.

Again, this entire chain of events will come at a time of "peace and safety." I would like for you to find a time of peace and safety AFTER an earthquake has destroyed every city on the planet! Those few who survive will be scared out of their wits.

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You know very well tat the Bible say When they will say peace and safety THEN the sudden destructon will come upon them.

Short Timer said in post 2258:

You said the 24 elders could be angels worshiping for ages,

But the 24 said they had been "Redeemed" . . .

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Revelation 5:8 [Textus Receptus] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Note that at the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

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Short Timer said in post 2271:

Re 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Would you care to explain where these four beast were on earth . . .

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Note that the 4 beasts aren't on the earth, but are around God's throne (Revelation 4:6), in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 4:1).

Also, these four, 6-winged beasts who say "Holy, holy, holy" near the throne of God in Revelation 4:8 are the same as the 6-winged seraphims (literal angelic creatures) which Isaiah saw saying "Holy, holy, holy" near the throne of God back at the time of Isaiah 6:2-3.

There are also different, literal angelic creatures called cherubims, one type of which was seen by Ezekiel in his first chapter, when he saw 4 of that type who stay near God's chariot.

That is, Ezekiel 1 describes the "merkabah" (H4818), the "chariot" of God himself. Ezekiel saw it has 4 "wheels" (Ezekiel 10:9) which are so large that they are frightening (Ezekiel 1:18). Each wheel consists of a wheel at a right angle within another wheel (Ezekiel 1:16-17, Ezekiel 10:10). The wheels turn with the sound of a great rushing (Ezekiel 3:13). Each wheel has eyes all around its rims (Ezekiel 1:18). And each wheel has an accompanying footman, as it were (Ezekiel 10:9,16,17): a 4-winged, 4-faced (Ezekiel 1:6) angelic being called a cherub (Ezekiel 10:9), whose beating wings make a great sound like rushing waters (Ezekiel 1:24), and whose bodies are covered with eyes (Ezekiel 10:12). Their 4 faces are of a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle (Ezekiel 1:10).

Between the 4 wheels and 4 cherubims are coals of fire (Ezekiel 10:2), and above is a crystal platform (Ezekiel 1:22, cf. Revelation 4:6a) above which God sits on a sapphire throne (Ezekiel 1:26, Ezekiel 10:1), and appears as bright as fire (Ezekiel 1:27, cf. Revelation 4:3a), with a rainbow of light circling him (Ezekiel 1:28, cf. Revelation 4:3b). God moves about on this chariot, for he came on it to appear to Ezekiel by the river Chebar in Babylonia (Ezekiel 1:3-28). Then God moved on it to a plain in Babylonia (Ezekiel 3:22-23). Later, God moved on it to the right side of Solomon's temple (Ezekiel 10:3-6). Then God moved on it to the east gate of that temple (Ezekiel 10:19). Then God moved on it to the top of the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem (Ezekiel 11:22-23; cf. Zechariah 14:4). Later, God moved on it to sit inside a future temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 43:2-7).

It should not be surprising to us that God, who has created such an amazing variety of animals on the earth, would also take pleasure in having created an amazing variety of angelic creatures.

Short Timer said in post 2271:

Re 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

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Note that Revelation 7:11 mentioning "all the angels" separately from the 24 elders doesn't require that the 24 elders aren't also angels, just as, for example, Hebrews 13:24 mentioning "all the saints" separately from "them that have the rule over you" doesn't mean that "them that have the rule over you" aren't also saints, because they are (Hebrews 13:7,17). Just as "all the saints" in Hebrews 13:24 means all the other saints, so "all the angels" in Revelation 7:11 can mean all the other angels.

iamlamad said in post 2264:

However, can we find even one more scripture where created beings are called "elders?"

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By "created beings", do you mean only angelic beings, as opposed to human "elders" (e.g. Genesis 50:7; James 5:14)?

That is, are you saying that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because no other part of the Bible ever refers to angels as "elders"?

If so, note that this argument is like the argument of full preterism, which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, Revelation can be the only place where "elders" refers to angels.

Also, the 24 elders being called "elders" (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, even though angels don't age. For they can be a special group of elder angels simply in the sense of them having been created sometime before other angels.

iamlamad said:

I don't believe angels cohabited with women and created giants.

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I figured that would be your position and of course that would be wrong. You haven't bought that line of Seth argument have you? But you really didn't answer the question. Here's another question. Are the "sons of God" in this passage human beings.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Order of Revelation Part 3. Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 1 Corin 15 : 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. The coming of the Lord,the resurrection and the delivering up of the kingdom are at the end at the 7th trumpet.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. 7th trumpet Rev 11:19. Voices,thundering,earthquake, great hail. Same as 7th vial.

Rev16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. Same as Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.