(moved) 70ad Resurrection -- Covenantal resurrection

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 1, 2015

I've written on this topic before on my blog and elsewhere. Rather then posting a long argument and list of scriptures, that no one would likely read through (we all know most posters and readers on forums read at the most about one paragraph of most other peoples posts)..

so here are just a few misc. points to bring out discussion on this topic.

- in order to understand "Resurrection" we need to understand what we are resurrected from,, i.e., death.. so before we define 'resurrection' we need to define the word 'death'

- biological death is not the reference point for resurrection,, covenantal/spiritual death is DEATH and the death in which the resurrection is a reference to

- bodie(s), or a plurality of biological bodies are not what are to rise again,, Paul speaks that the resurrection is a resurrection of the BODY, singular, ONE body, i.e., one corporate body.

- regarding the resurrection of this ONE body, Paul says that we seek to be 'further clothed' , not that the body seeks to be naked, but seeks to be clothed, as we are, but further clothed.. Before Israel was called by God in Covenant, she was 'naked' and without clothes, ie. without a covenant to clothe her in.

- Paul says the resurrection is the hope of Israel.. Israel is a Corporate body that was clothed in covenant with God,, but that Body had died due to covenant breaking/sin. The resurrection was the new corporate body of Israel from heaven,, a new body was needed.

- Jesus told Israel "YOU need to be born again", ie.., the nation of Israel who was born into covenant with God, broken covenant with him, needed to be born again, born this time of the Spirit (heavenly), and not just of the carnal/flesh (old covenant)

when the old covenant passed away in 70ad at the Parousia of Christ, and being the resurrection timing event is directly tied to the Parousia, the resurrection occurred at the same time.. the covenantal transformation of Israel from one mode of existence, under the old covenant, to a new mode of existence under the new covenant,, she received her new corporate body in Christ. God, through this resurrection event of Christ, and then Israel itself, changed the world and brought in a new heaven and earth where there is NO temple and no DEATH.

Douggg · Oct 2, 2015

Reformed Lutheran said:
through this resurrection event of Christ, and then Israel itself, changed the world and brought in a new heaven and earth where there is NO temple and no DEATH.

Why do you post this sort of stuff? People die every day.

2Corinthians5, Paul is talking about the redemption of the spirit, that takes place when a person becomes a Christian. We still look forward to the redemption of our body, which has not taken place yet.

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 2, 2015

Douggg said:
Why do you post this sort of stuff? People die every day.

2Corinthians5, Paul is talking about the redemption of the spirit, that takes place when a person becomes a Christian. We still look forward to the redemption of our body, which has not taken place yet.

Redemption of our individual biological bodies ?

Douggg · Oct 2, 2015

Reformed Lutheran said:
Redemption of our individual biological bodies ?

Add some clarity to your question.

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 2, 2015

Douggg said:
Add some clarity to your question.

The redemption or resurrection of each individual's physical/biological (skin, hair, nails, organs, blood etc..) bodies ?

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 2, 2015

There is the resurrection of the Body (singular, ie One body),, but it's not biological

Douggg · Oct 2, 2015

Reformed Lutheran said:
There is the resurrection of the Body (singular, ie One body),, but it's not biological

There is the one body of all Christians, in that sense everyone will be resurrected together. As individuals, each Christian will be resurrected, their individual body, to an individual everlasting eternal body. I don't know that biological is the right term because we have nothing to compare to. The new bodies will probably not have blood within, based upon what Jesus said of his body after the resurrection - flesh and bone, not flesh and blood.

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 2, 2015

Douggg said:
There is the one body of all Christians, in that sense everyone will be resurrected together. As individuals, each Christian will be resurrected, their individual body, to an individual everlasting eternal body. I don't know that biological is the right term because we have nothing to compare to. The new bodies will probably not have blood within, based upon what Jesus said of his body after the resurrection - flesh and bone, not flesh and blood.

Ok I completely understand that view, I once held to it in fact,, Yet don't find it being taught in scripture, ie a raising of all individual physical bodies coming out of the dirt and coming back to physical life

FreeinChrist · Oct 3, 2015

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Notrash · Oct 3, 2015

Yes; refomed lutheran. I think you on to something.

Jesus teaching in Jihn 5 & 6 talks about raising up on the last day, and tgen implies tgat Judas would not be among tgem.

Tge believing disciples had tgeur hopes shattered at his death and tgeir hopes and faith RESURRECTED at his resurrection. They held onto the "BODY of doctrine of his truth and faith in his deity abd fledgki.g new way. That was a private individual resurrection and I believe crushed the law of sin/death incurred in the garden. Rom 8:2; Is 59:5 (first century context of the chapter as shown by Pauls use of it in Rom 3 & 11)

But tgere would be a corporal, public ressurrection from the dead way of the law of moses for those who held to the "body" of his teaching and were thus the body of Christ.

There is a putting on of a angelic spirit body after death, but I think of that as a continuatiin of the spirit that is manifest in this life as per Acts 23:6-8 (both angel and spirit)

Tge putting on of immortality must also have veen a first century aspect of tra.sferring from being condemned by the religious authorities to bei.g vindicated, revered etc and at the gathering together judicially with those (angels & slain saints) who were in the clouds.

Some things are in hypothesis mode for me on some of these points.

Resurrection from both garden law death and mosaic law death!

I believe adams original lifespan would have been 1000 yrs, which was shortened 70 yrs because of the presence of the law. Jesus in "living" to 66/70 AD fulfilled Asams lifespan but also was "cut off" midlife like an Adam to cancel both his spiritual death and his being life shortened.

Is 60:19-21

..

Berean777 · Oct 4, 2015

Reformed Lutheran said:
I've written on this topic before on my blog and elsewhere. Rather then posting a long argument and list of scriptures, that no one would likely read through (we all know most posters and readers on forums read at the most about one paragraph of most other peoples posts)..

so here are just a few misc. points to bring out discussion on this topic.

- in order to understand "Resurrection" we need to understand what we are resurrected from,, i.e., death.. so before we define 'resurrection' we need to define the word 'death'

- biological death is not the reference point for resurrection,, covenantal/spiritual death is DEATH and the death in which the resurrection is a reference to

- bodie(s), or a plurality of biological bodies are not what are to rise again,, Paul speaks that the resurrection is a resurrection of the BODY, singular, ONE body, i.e., one corporate body.

- regarding the resurrection of this ONE body, Paul says that we seek to be 'further clothed' , not that the body seeks to be naked, but seeks to be clothed, as we are, but further clothed.. Before Israel was called by God in Covenant, she was 'naked' and without clothes, ie. without a covenant to clothe her in.

- Paul says the resurrection is the hope of Israel.. Israel is a Corporate body that was clothed in covenant with God,, but that Body had died due to covenant breaking/sin. The resurrection was the new corporate body of Israel from heaven,, a new body was needed.

- Jesus told Israel "YOU need to be born again", ie.., the nation of Israel who was born into covenant with God, broken covenant with him, needed to be born again, born this time of the Spirit (heavenly), and not just of the carnal/flesh (old covenant)

when the old covenant passed away in 70ad at the Parousia of Christ, and being the resurrection timing event is directly tied to the Parousia, the resurrection occurred at the same time.. the covenantal transformation of Israel from one mode of existence, under the old covenant, to a new mode of existence under the new covenant,, she received her new corporate body in Christ. God, through this resurrection event of Christ, and then Israel itself, changed the world and brought in a new heaven and earth where there is NO temple and no DEATH.

You have defined death as uniquely spiritual and not physical, however you have not defined what the blood covenant is and how the blood covenant is tied to the resurrection of the dead, with the goal of receiving our eternal inheritance.

Your saying that at 70AD Parousia, the passing in of the blood covenant and passing out of the old covenant was instantaneous and this was when the new corporate body of Christ received their eternal inheritance, which previously, under the curse of the Mosaic law was not possible under the blood of sheep and goats.

I hope that I have correctly summarised your position.

My one paragraph worth is as follows:

Let me first bring to your attention that most of the founding disciples had long departed before this event that you say happened in 70AD. This means that they died while not being recipients to their eternal inheritance, because the resurrection happened long after they departed to realise this spirit rebirth of the newly ratified corporate body of Christ. John who wrote his revelation after the departed disciples, would declare them to be the twelve foundational walls of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:14). Under your assertions, New Jerusalem was not yet established, until shortly after 70AD and this would exclude the majority of the disciples from the newly established corporate body of New Jerusalem, hence they can't be named on its walls, because they were not there for the new birth in post 70AD.

Berean777 · Oct 4, 2015

My second paragraph worth in this posting is as follows:

The blood covenant has a condition to when a faithful can receive their eternal inheritance and it cannot be whilst the witness of the corporate body of Christ still physically lives. The witness/Testator must first die as a condition of the blood covenant before they can receive their eternal inheritance as declared in Hebrews 9:15-17.

Hebrews 9:15-17
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

So a witness post 70AD is already part of the corporate body New Jerusalem and still yet to receive ther eternal inheritance until they sign out with their own blood. Jesus summed it up as drinking from his bitter cup, which is death. So physical death is required as a condition of the blood covenant in order to receive the promise of eternal inheritance and not before.

random person · Oct 4, 2015

Berean777 said:
Let me first bring to your attention that most of the founding disciples had long departed before this event that you say happened in 70AD. This means that they died while not being recipients to their eternal inheritance, because the resurrection happened long after they departed to realise this spirit rebirth of the newly ratified corporate body of Christ. John who wrote his revelation after the departed disciples, would declare them to be the twelve foundational walls of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:14). Under your assertions, New Jerusalem was not yet established, until shortly after 70AD and this would exclude the majority of the disciples from the newly established corporate body of New Jerusalem, hence they can't be named on its walls, because they were not there for the new birth in post 70AD.

Oh they were there at the Resurrection.

Futurists and partial preterists have not come to the full realization of Daniel chapter 12.

Verse 2 is a Resurrection prophecy.

Verse 6 is an inquiry on its fulfillment of the Resurrection prophecy.

Verse 7 provides the time of its fulfillment of the Resurrection.

The Resurrection is the hope of Israel. Of necessity, the hope of Israel had to be preached to the Jews for 40 years before it filled up the measure of its sins for the shedding the blood of the prophets and apostles. Acts of the Apostles 3:26; Acts of the Apostles 13:46; Acts of the Apostles 7:46-52; 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16; Matthew 23:29-32 & Matthew 23:34-36 (Isaiah 65:7; Isaiah 65:15; Luke 11:47-51); Matthew 21:43 (Isaiah 65:15; Acts of the Apostles 11:26).

Berean777 · Oct 4, 2015

random person said:
Oh they were there at the Resurrection.

Futurists and partial preterists have not come to the full realization of Daniel chapter 12.

Verse 2 is a Resurrection prophecy.

Verse 6 is an inquiry on its fulfillment of the Resurrection prophecy.

Verse 7 provides the time of its fulfillment of the Resurrection.

The Resurrection is the hope of Israel. Of necessity, the hope of Israel had to be preached to the Jews for 40 years before it filled up the measure of its sins for the shedding the blood of the prophets and apostles. Acts 3:26; Acts 13:46; Acts 7:46-52; 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16; Matthew 23:29-32 & Matthew 23:34-36 (Isaiah 65:7; Isaiah 65:15; Luke 11:47-51); Matthew 21:43 (Isaiah 65:15; Acts 11:26).

Oh they were there you said...Hmmmmmm............

random person · Oct 4, 2015

Berean777 said:
Oh they were there you said...Hmmmmmm............

We were resurrected from an Hadean grave, but our physical remains will continue to dissolve into atoms and nothingness never to be reinhabitated again. Our resurrection is Christ reigning in our hearts (a fellowship like that of the Garden before the Fall, the same fellowship that Adam and Eve enjoyed with Yahweh), our resurrection is our entrance into the Kingdom of God into the presence of God, our resurrection is our entrance into heaven itself into the presence of God. That is the Resurrection!

Berean777 · Oct 4, 2015

random person said:
We were resurrected from an Hadean grave, but our physical remains will continue to dissolve into atoms and nothingness never to be reinhabitated again. Our resurrection is Christ reigning in our hearts (a fellowship like that of the Garden before the Fall, the same fellowship that Adam and Eve enjoyed with Yahweh), our resurrection is our entrance into the Kingdom of God, our resurrection is our entrance in heaven itself. That is the Resurrection!

How were the disciples that departed before 70AD raised?

random person · Oct 4, 2015

Berean777 said:
How were the disciples that departed before 70AD raised?

They were resting for a season (Revelation 6:9-11 c.f. Revelation 20:4)

Remember the Old Covenant were a figure and shadow of the reality.

Christ entered into the Most Holy Place, but unlike the Levitical High Priests on the Day of Atonement it wasn't a temple made with hands but Heaven itself. Worthy was the blood of the Lamb and Christ like the Levitical High Priest if they entered into the Most Holy Place and their sacrifices were worthy, they would exit the Most Holy Place and declared Israel atoned for. But if their sacrifices were unworthy, the Levitical High Priest would perish and not exit the Most Holy Place. Hebrews 9:6-8; Hebrews 9:24-28.

Nobody could enter into the Most Holy Place until the wrath of God was consummated in A.D. 70 against Babylon (Israel) Revelation 16:17f.

Yes the veil was gone and man can now approach God (Revelation 11:19) but no man could actually enter the Most Holy Place until, "the seven plagues of the seven angels was completed" (Revelation 15:8).

Berean777 · Oct 4, 2015

random person said:
They were resting for a season (Revelation 6:9-11 c.f. Revelation 20:4)

Remember the Old Covenant were a figure and shadow of the reality.

Christ entered into the Most Holy Place, but unlike the Levitical High Priests on the Day of Atonement it wasn't a temple made with hands but Heaven itself. Worthy was the blood of the Lamb and Christ like the Levitical High Priest if they entered into the Most Holy Place and their sacrifices were worthy, they would exit the Most Holy Place and declared Israel atoned for. But if their sacrifices were unworthy, the Levitical High Priest would perish and not exit the Most Holy Place. Hebrews 9:6-8; Hebrews 9:24-28.

Nobody could enter into the Most Holy Place until the wrath of God was consummated in A.D. 70 against Babylon (Israel) Revelation 16:17f.

Yes the veil was gone and man can now approach God (Revelation 11:19) but no man could actually enter the Most Holy Place until, "the seven plagues of the seven angels was completed" (Revelation 15:8).

Sure they were resting from their works in the flesh because they were departed. As you stated previously....

our physical remains will continue to dissolve into atoms and nothingness never to be reinhabitated again.Our resurrection is Christ reigning in our hearts

So after the disciples had long departed and their physical bodies dissolved as you described above, then my question still stands as follows:

How were the disciples that departed before 70AD raised within the context you presented of Christ reigning in their hearts at the Parousa?

Wgw · Oct 4, 2015

The OP and subsequent remarks by "random person" are astonishing. I am particularly shocked to see someone who is ostensibly Lutheran come forward with such an idea. An unflinching faith in bodily resurrection was the reason why most of the apostles and millions of Christians afterwards joyously allowed themselves to be martyred.

Yet for no conceivable reason, we are asked to rejct that doctrine. What is being proposed also appears to require the rejection of faith in the resurrection of the Lord. You might just as well set fire to the entire Nicene Creed.

Reformed Lutheran · Oct 4, 2015

Berean777 said:
How were the disciples that departed before 70AD raised within the context you presented of Christ reigning in their hearts at the Parousa?

The Disciples in the first century were living in the end of the age (i.e. end of old covenant age), just as all the other saints of the old covenant age that died, they "slept" until the Resurrection that would occur at the consummation of the new covenant and the marriage super of the lamb that was to soon happen (thus bringing in the eternal never ending age of the resurrection, the new covenant age).

When Christ concurred his enemies and destroyed the administration of death (represented by the temple),, this was the sign that death has been concurred and resurrection life is fully complete. All those now in Christ shall never DIE,, just as Jesus said. all the Israel of God (jew and gentile alike,, from Adam to the apostle John) were covenantally transferred and raised up out of the old covenant mode of existence and into the eternal everlasting new covenant mode of existence.

there is now no longer 'hades' or 'the sea',, abodes of the dead where men previously died and their souls slept in the dust of the earth,, the abode of death was destroyed. We who are alive in Christ are alive indeed and we live to the Lord forever more and shall never taste death. physical biological death is not 'death' as defined in scripture, the 'death' that christ was to destroy or the death that we died in old covenant sin. biological death is a natural process of this earthly creation,, covenantal death and spiritual death is not natural, thus Christ came to destroy these works of the devil.

(moved) 70ad Resurrection -- Covenantal resurrection

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