[MOVED]Are you lawless?

Wordkeeper

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ITs strange how i can read pauls words, and the words of Christ, and i feel edified. I read your words however and i just want to walk away.


Romans 10:3

New International Version
Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

New Living Translation
For they don't understand God's way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God's way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law.
 
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Romans 10:3

New International Version
Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

New Living Translation
For they don't understand God's way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God's way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law.


Thanks for the spam my brother.

The Lord is my strength. I am free from men, but i belong however to Christ. No man can judge or teach me, im past all that now. I have seen fallacy abound in every place. I look only to Christ.
 
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Thanks for the spam my brother.

The Lord is my strength. I am free from men, but i belong however to Christ. No man can judge or teach me, im past all that now. I have seen fallacy abound in every place. I look only to Christ.


Isaiah 55:8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.
 
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Isaiah 55:8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.


Im not looking for perfection on earth, although i try my hardest one day a time. My citizenship is in heaven, and so is my perfection. Christ promises a new body, that's where i will find perfection.



Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Following Paul’s Example
15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

17 Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do. 18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
 
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I agree with this scripture. My heart rejoices in it right now. It seems to call me. I take things one day at a time, i keep my mind focused on this task.

Don't tell me to throw out this command. Don't argue with me about not using effort either. Your words seem to contradict scripture. Sure your words may have some truth in them, but they seem a little polluted to me.


Colossians 3New International Version (NIV)

Living as Those Made Alive in Christ
3 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
 
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Amen, i so need this.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts

Proverbs 14:12There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.

Proverbs 16:2All a person's ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the LORD.

Proverbs 16:25There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.

Proverbs 19:20Listen to advice and accept discipline, and at the end you will be counted among the wise.

Proverbs 21:2A person may think their own ways are right, but the LORD weighs the heart.
 
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Proverbs 14:12There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.

Proverbs 16:2All a person's ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the LORD.

Proverbs 16:25There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.

Proverbs 19:20Listen to advice and accept discipline, and at the end you will be counted among the wise.

Proverbs 21:2A person may think their own ways are right, but the LORD weighs the heart.


Its not me who is preaching that we throw out the commands and stop lightening to instruction. I think its you who are suggesting that.



Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.

Proverbs 16:3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do,
and he will establish your plans.

17 The highway of the upright avoids evil;
those who guard their ways preserve their lives.




Proverbs 19:20Listen to advice and accept discipline, and at the end you will be counted among the wise.

Proverbs 19:16 Whoever keeps commandments keeps their life,
but whoever shows contempt for their ways will die

27 Stop listening to instruction, my son,
and you will stray from the words of knowledge..
 
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Its not me who is preaching that we throw out the commands and stop lightening to instruction. I think its you who are suggesting that.





Proverbs 16:3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do,
and he will establish your plans.

17 The highway of the upright avoids evil;
those who guard their ways preserve their lives.






Proverbs 19:16 Whoever keeps commandments keeps their life,
but whoever shows contempt for their ways will die

27 Stop listening to instruction, my son,
and you will stray from the words of knowledge..



Tell me. Is the instruction telling you to avoid using human effort?

Galatians 3:3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
 
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Tell me. Is the instruction telling you to avoid using human effort?

No, its not telling me that. Its telling me to love God with all my heart, mind, soul and strength. Its telling me to use effort.

Paul says to not be unwise but to understand the Lords will. Its his will that i dont waste my efforts on useless things, but instead that i use it to do good. Jesus says that only a foolish person will not obey His commands, therefore i follow his commands as best i can. I don't see anything foolish in that.
 
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No, its not telling me that. Its telling me to love God with all my heart, mind, soul and strength. Its telling me to use effort.

Paul says to not be unwise but to understand the Lords will. Its his will that i dont waste my efforts on useless things, but instead that i use it to do good. Jesus says that only a foolish person will not obey His commands, therefore i follow his commands as best i can. I don't see anything foolish in that.



So "by the Spirit" in your vocabulary means "human effort"?

Galatians 3:3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

I can help out with slow comprehension by posting explanation, but "no comprehension" requires prayer.

Dear heavenly Father, please heal our brother of his comprehension problem. We ask this in Jesus name. And all who read this said, "Amen."
 
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So "by the Spirit" in your vocabulary means "human effort"?

Galatians 3:3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

I can help out with slow comprehension by posting explanation, but "no comprehension" requires prayer.

Dear heavenly Father, please heal our brother of his comprehension problem. We ask this in Jesus name. And all who read this said, "Amen."

You're the one having trouble brother. You seem to be mislead into thinking that if we use our efforts to obey God that somehow this means we are forsaking Grace. Paul was not rebuking the Galatians for using effort. No, it was because they thought they needed to earn salvation, and also get circumcised. There is a big difference between what im talking about and what the Galatians were rebuked for. If you cant see paul urging us to use our efforts for good instead of evil then its you who have the problem comprehending.
 
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Wordkeeper

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You're the one having trouble brother. You seem to be mislead into thinking that if we use our efforts to obey God that somehow this means we are forsaking Grace. Paul was not rebuking the Galatians for using effort. No, it was because they thought they needed to earn salvation, and also get circumcised. There is a big difference between what im talking about and what the Galatians were rebuked for. If you cant see paul urging us to use our efforts for good instead of evil then its you who have the problem comprehending.

There is no difference.

There are only two ways of sanctification, by human effort or by the Spirit.

Those who use human effort are under God's judgment, for trampling Christ's blood underfoot.

Hebrews10:1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come andnot the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;

6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.

7“THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)
TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’”

8After saying above, “SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SINYOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9then He said, “BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HISENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

16“THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”
He then says,

17“AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”

18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer anyoffering for sin.



19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.



26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony oftwo or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, IWILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.

38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
 
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There is no difference.

There are only two ways of sanctification, by human effort or by the Spirit.

Those who use human effort are under God's judgment, for trampling Christ's blood underfoot.

Hebrews10:1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come andnot the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;

6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.

7“THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)
TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’”

8After saying above, “SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SINYOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9then He said, “BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HISENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

16“THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”
He then says,

17“AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”

18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer anyoffering for sin.



19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.



26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony oftwo or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, IWILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.

38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


Its clear that paul wants us to use our efforts for doing good. Your understanding is scripture is misguided. WE cant save our self, but we are asked to use our efforts to do good.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Its clear that paul wants us to use our efforts for doing good. Your understanding is scripture is misguided. WE cant save our self, but we are asked to use our efforts to do good.

Explain Galatians 3 and Hebrews 10, which clearly rebukes those who use their own efforts, instead of waiting for God's promise to be fulfilled.
 
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Explain Galatians 3 and Hebrews 10, which clearly rebukes those who use their own efforts, instead of waiting for God's promise to be fulfilled.

Paul was only saying that we cannot earn salvation. Hes also rebuking the need to be circumcised. Circumcision is not a command that teaches us love or righteousness, its just a sign of the Old Covenant. Paul never rebukes the teaching of commands that teach love and righteousness. He teaches them himself actually.

After we receive Gods promise of salvation, we still follow the teaching/commands of the Lord and his apostles. That's why they gave commands in the first place. Paul never once issues a command and then tells us to wait for God to make it happen, no, instead he issues commands and expects us to use effort in obeying them, and surely we will need to pray for Gods help. However, without our efforts agreeing with Gods command then we will never obey because it requires our efforts as well as Gods help. Everything we do requires our effort.

Also, the Lord leads us. In John 14 the apostles were promised that if they kept the commands of Christ, that the spirit would teach them and REMIND them of all the commands and words he gave us. So the spirit does remind believers about those commands and he guides us in our daily life by them. So naturally its good to meditate on the commands of Christ. However its up to us to choose to follow, and that actually takes effort, because the flesh doesn't want to do those things, and it never will.

There is a promise of salvation that we wait for, we are waiting for our new bodies, but this one we have now is not it.
 
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Paul was only saying that we cannot earn salvation. Hes also rebuking the need to be circumcised. Circumcision is not a command that teaches us love or righteousness, its just a sign of the Old Covenant. Paul never rebukes the teaching of commands that teach love and righteousness. He teaches them himself actually.

After we receive Gods promise of salvation, we still follow the teaching/commands of the Lord and his apostles. That's why they gave commands in the first place. Paul never once issues a command and then tells us to wait for God to make it happen, no, instead he issues commands and expects us to use effort in obeying them, and surely we will need to pray for Gods help, but without our efforts agreeing with Gods command then we will never obey because it requires our efforts as well as Gods help. Everything we do requires our effort.

Also, the Lord leads us. In John 14 the apostles were promised that if they kept the commands of Christ, that the spirit would teach them and REMIND them of all the commands and words he gave us. So the spirit does remind believers about those commands and he guides us in our daily life by them. So naturally its good to meditate on the commands of Christ. However its up to us to choose to follow, and that actually takes effort, because the flesh doesn't want to do those things, and it never will.

There is a promise of salvation that we wait for, we are waiting for our new bodies, but this one we have now is not it.

Then why did Paul compare human effort to Hagar? Explain that.
 
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Then why did Paul compare human effort to Hagar? Explain that.


Paul is talking about human effort in self righteousness (salvation). We can never be righteous apart from the sin atonement that Christ provided us. However, we still follow righteousness, and that's why the apostles gave us commands that lead us in love and righteousness. Pauls words are clearly commanding us to do what is right and not do what is wrong. And His word are clearly teaching us to use our efforts in doing good instead of evil. That's why paul and Peter both say not to use our freedom as an excuse to do evil things. All we must do is give God his glory, and thank him for his free gift of salvation. We must do this always, i agree. We must grow in grace. However, we still have our own effort and we should be using it to do whats right and not whats wrong.
 
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I firmly believe that God doesn't expect us to be perfect in this world, but he expects us to try our hardest. I don't believe we can be perfect in this world and that's why God promises a new one, where we can be perfect. WE are waiting on the promise yes, the promise of a new body and a new world. We are waiting on Heaven which is our redemption. I believe we must get serious about our faith, and keep our mind focused on good things instead of evil, and keep our ears and eyes away from evil things as well, because that is a stumbling block. We can grow in self control this way, yet even then im not sure anyone is perfect.
 
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