Speaking in Tongues

Love Jonezing

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it's because a lot of the Pentecostal view of spirituality such as being slain in the spirit, their view of tongues, holy laughter, spiritual drunkenness, faith healing, etc are much more akin in practice to paganism than to actual ancient Christian spirituality.

and it has nothing to do with anyone's skin color, I don't know why that was brought up.
I brought up skin color because I have seen it too many times in this forum when it comes to Pentecostalism. However, what does the right thing look like? Peter healed a man, Paul was in a trance when he talked to God. Christ was mistaken for a ghost. Christ also spit on the ground, made mud with it, then rubbed it in a mans eye to heal him. And that was just in the New Testament, it gets stranger in the old testament. If anyone were to see that today, they would be completely spooked and convinced that it was voodoo. I just don't see how people say that those events were perfectly fine, biblical and in the will of God, but those Pentecostals are satanist, voodoo worshipers, crazy, unbiblical and whatever. Because of those events, I don't put any kind of limits on God. Nor do I confine Him to a certain way of doing things.
 
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buzuxi02

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Speaking in gibberish is a big part of the voodoo religion. The fact that some of the early pentecostals in the 1900's came back from missionary activity in Africa maybe evidence that voodoo may have influenced them, but even they initially thought they were speaking authentic languages. Voodooists speak of being "drunk with the spirits"., when voodooists go into a trance like state and begin to speak with ecstatic utterance you cannot differentiate between the two practises.
 
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Love Jonezing

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Speaking in gibberish is a big part of the voodoo religion. The fact that some of the early pentecostals in the 1900's came back from missionary activity in Africa maybe evidence that voodoo may have influenced them, but even they initially thought they were speaking authentic languages. Voodooists speak of being "drunk with the spirits"., when voodooists go into a trance like state and begin to speak with ecstatic utterance you cannot differentiate between the two practises.
I wanna believe you can you give a source? You seem to be very knowledgeable about African Voodoo practices.
 
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Love Jonezing

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I don't deny miracles, just the Pentecostal way of performing them. They are much more in line with paganism than Christianity.
Says who? Don't get me wrong, I am not naive to African witchcraft. I just wish I could see something concrete that says Pentecostals are heavily influenced by African voodoo culture and therefore it is witchcraft. I just don't see it. I just don't see how someone could love God, in the fashion that I've seen these people love God, and be lost because it didn't line up with someones opinion of what right looks like. This is like this scripture, "And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us".
 
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buzuxi02

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I wanna believe you can you give a source? You seem to be very knowledgeable about African Voodoo practices.

There is some evidence that a few of the early pentecostal members had been to Africa on a missionary trip. Im not saying thats definite evidence that influenced them in the first decade of 1900's to speak in tongues. Its just an opinion because its popular in many indigenous african religions.

But we dont have to go there. Because this same speaking in tongues was the cornerstone of ancient greek pagan religion. The Oracle of Delphi (and Dodona and many others) was based on interpreting the prophecies that the priestess would utter as she fell under a trance. She would speak gibberish and it was said she was relaying a prophecy.
 
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prodromos

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I always wondered why people compare Pentecostals worshiping God to chicken bones and witchcraft. Please tell me where you read this. It must be because Pentecostal churches are filled with black people, that is the only thing I can think of. That sounds very stereotypical, even racist. I was talking to a guy a few weeks back about how I admired Martin Luther King Jr and the guy response was that MLK was a headbanging voodoo worshiper. He just dismissed all of his works because the color of his skin. Not saying anything about you, but I am really amazed at the level of racial ignorance that comes across this Christian forum. You know, after talking to some people with these racially energized views, I really wonder if we are living in the year 2015. Sometimes I feel like my Christian brethren never left the 1800s. Who could you blame for such a level of ignorance in a time where there is so much access to knowledge?
My only experience of Pentecostals is the white Anglo-Saxons here in Australia, in fact I don't think I've ever seen a person of African descent in the Pentecostal Churches I've visited in the past. My views parallel those of the other Orthodox who have posted in this thread, so I don't think you can so easily dismiss what has been presented as racial prejudice.
 
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prodromos

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Christ also spit on the ground, made mud with it, then rubbed it in a mans eye to heal him.
Just a little FYI on this event. The man had been born without eyes. Jesus made him eyes from the dirt just as He had made the first man Adam from the same. Read the passage again with this knowledge and it will make a lot more sense, such as why people couldn't recognise him or were unwilling to accept that it was the same man. Jesus had healed blind people before and it never drew a response anything like this.

Oh, and you can thank the Church fathers for handing down the full understanding of this passage :)
 
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buzuxi02

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. I just don't see it. I just don't see how someone could love God, in the fashion that I've seen these people love God, and be lost because it didn't line up with someones opinion of what right looks like. This is like this scripture, "And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us".

We are not making judgement on the persons love of God. We are just pointing out the following:

1. That traditional christianity has always claimed the NT speaking in tongues were authentic rational languages.

2. That before the first case of this ecstatic utterance in christianity which occured in the United States alittle over a century ago no christian group or sect ever interpreted 1Cor 14 to be anything other than authentic human languages.

3. That from approximately 1901 to 1908 these original Pentecostals truly believed they were speaking authentic vernacular human languages and believed they were anointed to go and preach into the communities and nations these languages were spoken in.

5. That what is happening in contemporary pentecostal charismatic circles is not unique to them. And has been practised in the ancient greek oracles, commonly practised in African and Haitian folk religion and has been observed in certain elements of buddhism and shintoism... and many others.
 
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Love Jonezing

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Just a little FYI on this event. The man had been born without eyes. Jesus made him eyes from the dirt just as He had made the first man Adam from the same. Read the passage again with this knowledge and it will make a lot more sense, such as why people couldn't recognise him or were unwilling to accept that it was the same man. Jesus had healed blind people before and it never drew a response anything like this.

Oh, and you can thank the Church fathers for handing down the full understanding of this passage :)
Oh
 
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Love Jonezing

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We are not making judgement on the persons love of God. We are just pointing out the following:

1. That traditional christianity has always claimed the NT speaking in tongues were authentic rational languages.

2. That before the first case of this ecstatic utterance in christianity which occured in the United States alittle over a century ago no christian group or sect ever interpreted 1Cor 14 to be anything other than authentic human languages.

3. That from approximately 1901 to 1908 these original Pentecostals truly believed they were speaking authentic vernacular human languages and believed they were anointed to go and preach into the communities and nations these languages were spoken in.

5. That what is happening in contemporary pentecostal charismatic circles is not unique to them. And has been practised in the ancient greek oracles, commonly practised in African and Haitian folk religion and has been observed in certain elements of buddhism and shintoism... and many others.
I understand, I just wish someone could show me were that is so I can see for myself. I just lose confidence with any of these types of statements because they seem to be full of conjecture. It is say, that missionaries went into Africa. Where in Africa? Africa has over 50 countries/territories. Is all of Africa bad? Then, it is said, that missionaries came out and influence Pentecostalism with paganism and satanistic rituals. Then it is said that color is not a factor, but look at the two regions described, Africa and Haiti? See what I mean? See the problem I have with that? From what I am hearing, Africa and Haiti equals witch craft, voodoo and paganistic practices. These statements seem convoluted with skin color. It must be impossible for anything good to come out of these places. This is like Nazareth, where it says, "And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see". Nazareth was synonymous with nothing good. I have met African's from all around the world and I can say that those Africans loved God. The ones I met anyway. I am just saying that I never saw paganistic practices; they were far from it. This is what I mean.
 
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Shieldmaiden4Christ

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I don't know why you're making it about race, when it's well known that Haiti in particular is the birthplace of voodoo (and voodoo is one of the dominant religions there). It's also based off of West African pagan religious traditions, which are also still heavily practiced in West Africa. These religions are frequently monotheistic, but at the same time there's a component of ancestor worship. And yes, a lot of practitioners of voodoo (and its base religions) go into trances where they say unintelligible words. We could also go into other syncretic religions of the region, like Candomble and Santeria, doing these sorts of things without it being about race. It's not an indictment against African peoples and African descendents, but about the religious practices. For what it's worth, buzuxi02 also mentioned the type of stuff going on in Pentecostal circles going on in other religions around the world, from the oracles of ancient Greece, to practices in Buddhism, to practices in Shintoism. Where's the cry of racism against Asians ...?
 
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Love Jonezing

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I don't know why you're making it about race, when it's well known that Haiti in particular is the birthplace of voodoo (and voodoo is one of the dominant religions there). It's also based off of West African pagan religious traditions, which are also still heavily practiced in West Africa. These religions are frequently monotheistic, but at the same time there's a component of ancestor worship. And yes, a lot of practitioners of voodoo (and its base religions) go into trances where they say unintelligible words. We could also go into other syncretic religions of the region, like Candomble and Santeria, doing these sorts of things without it being about race. It's not an indictment against African peoples and African descendents, but about the religious practices. For what it's worth, buzuxi02 also mentioned the type of stuff going on in Pentecostal circles going on in other religions around the world, from the oracles of ancient Greece, to practices in Buddhism, to practices in Shintoism. Where's the cry of racism against Asians ...?
I know it seems that way and I promise that I am not trying to make this about race. Not at all. I simply wanted to know where are people reading this stuff. And buzuxi02, my apologies if it came across that way. That was not my intent. My intent was to point out how ambiguous the statement was.
 
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Love Jonezing

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I don't know why you're making it about race, when it's well known that Haiti in particular is the birthplace of voodoo (and voodoo is one of the dominant religions there). It's also based off of West African pagan religious traditions, which are also still heavily practiced in West Africa. These religions are frequently monotheistic, but at the same time there's a component of ancestor worship. And yes, a lot of practitioners of voodoo (and its base religions) go into trances where they say unintelligible words. We could also go into other syncretic religions of the region, like Candomble and Santeria, doing these sorts of things without it being about race. It's not an indictment against African peoples and African descendents, but about the religious practices. For what it's worth, buzuxi02 also mentioned the type of stuff going on in Pentecostal circles going on in other religions around the world, from the oracles of ancient Greece, to practices in Buddhism, to practices in Shintoism. Where's the cry of racism against Asians ...?
Thank you for bringing that forward so I could clear that up, that I was not trying to make this about race. The topic is about tongues. I was simply trying to show that not everything is as it seems. It is my belief that if the people of today were to travel back in time and witnessed first hand, those accounts, that I could see people on this forum saying it is voodoo. Take for instance the laying on of hands, people received the gift of tongues through that process. What do you think Simon saw in acts 8, when it says, "When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money"? That is all I am saying. What does right look like? Simply saying that stems from paganism is subjective to me. Please help me, tell me what you read so I can read this for myself. See what I mean?
 
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buzuxi02

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I understand, I just wish someone could show me were that is so I can see for myself. I just lose confidence with any of these types of statements because they seem to be full of conjecture. It is say, that missionaries went into Africa. Where in Africa? Africa has over 50 countries/territories. Is all of Africa bad? Then, it is said, that missionaries came out and influence Pentecostalism with paganism and satanistic rituals. Then it is said that color is not a factor, but look at the two regions described, Africa and Haiti? See what I mean? See the problem I have with that? From what I am hearing, Africa and Haiti equals witch craft, voodoo and paganistic practices. These statements seem convoluted with skin color. It must be impossible for anything good to come out of these places. This is like Nazareth, where it says, "And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see". Nazareth was synonymous with nothing good. I have met African's from all around the world and I can say that those Africans loved God. The ones I met anyway. I am just saying that I never saw paganistic practices; they were far from it. This is what I mean.

In Voodoo, riding the spirit of Loa involves dancing and bodily gyrations and speaking in tongues as well. William Seymour the founder of the Azusa street revival was born to african slaves in Louisiana which was the center of voodoo in the United States. It "may" have influenced his revival as accounts claim similiar things were happening at Azusa. But my point is not where its roots originate but that speaking in gibberish is not unique to Pentecostals and was not what the early christians viewed as speaking in tongues.

As I said before the original bible group (of whom Seymour studied under) in 1901 believed (falsely) that they were speaking authentic languages. The leader Parham even claimed he brought in linguists and verified these were authentic languages. This of course was untrue and they were never even able to answer the question whether it was Cantonese or Mandarin chinese. Just read from the bottom of pages 48-50 to see how much he believed this gibberish were real languages meant to spread the gospel throught the world:
The Azusa Street Revival - Robert R. Owens - Google Books

Another false fruit created by the Pentecostal movement are the faith healers like Benny Hinn. All these modern day faith healers have their roots in the Azusa street revival. It began with Maria Beulah Wooworth who was kicked out of a number of sects early in her life and found a home with the Pentecostals from then on these pseudo faith healers became a staple part of the pentecostal-charismatic movement.
 
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Love Jonezing

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In Voodoo, riding the spirit of Loa involves dancing and bodily gyrations and speaking in tongues as well. William Seymour the founder of the Azusa street revival was born to african slaves in Louisiana which was the center of voodoo in the United States. It "may" have influenced his revival as accounts claim similiar things were happening at Azusa. But my point is not where its roots originate but that speaking in gibberish is not unique to Pentecostals and was not what the early christians viewed as speaking in tongues.

As I said before the original bible group (of whom Seymour studied under) in 1901 believed (falsely) that they were speaking authentic languages. The leader Parham even claimed he brought in linguists and verified these were authentic languages. This of course was untrue and they were never even able to answer the question whether it was Cantonese or Mandarin chinese. Just read from the bottom of pages 48-50 to see how much he believed this gibberish were real languages meant to spread the gospel throught the world:
The Azusa Street Revival - Robert R. Owens - Google Books

Another false fruit created by the Pentecostal movement are the faith healers like Benny Hinn. All these modern day faith healers have their roots in the Azusa street revival. It began with Maria Beulah Wooworth who was kicked out of a number of sects early in her life and found a home with the Pentecostals from then on these pseudo faith healers became a staple part of the pentecostal-charismatic movement.
Thank you. I started from the beginning. It is turning out to be a pretty good read.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Says who? Don't get me wrong, I am not naive to African witchcraft. I just wish I could see something concrete that says Pentecostals are heavily influenced by African voodoo culture and therefore it is witchcraft. I just don't see it. I just don't see how someone could love God, in the fashion that I've seen these people love God, and be lost because it didn't line up with someones opinion of what right looks like. This is like this scripture, "And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us".

I never said they were lost or influenced by paganism. What I said is that what they do is more akin to paganism. Watch the Toronto blessing, and then watch Hindu gurus. A lot of what they do looks the same
 
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buzuxi02

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More information on how the original Azusa street participants truly believed they were speaking authentic foreign languages and went on many missionary trips yielding no fruit. They believed this for years even when it was pointed out that it was just strange babbling. They even went to Alexandria Egypt in 1910 yielding no fruit. Western Missionaries who were already in these countries complained that these pentecostals only try to persuade those 'already saved'. Basically preaching to the choir to the established missionaries that preceded them and spoke english. By 1909 other missionaries began calling them out: "At no time has there been any known tongue spoken, all has been an unknown utterance"... These charismatic pentecostals were so convinced they were speaking authentic languages for well over a decade. Read from pgs 236-247:
The Azusa Street Mission and Revival - Cecil M. Robeck - Google Books

When they overcame their denial they simply reinterpreted the scriptural passages of what constituted speaking in tongues. It took them almost 15 years! But this also demonstrates how sola scripture is impotent, as 1 Corinthians 14 actually makes clear that this gift is one of speaking authentic languages:

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me......(1 Cor 14.10)

Using the 'sola scripture approach' its actually shocking that 'bible only believers' accept this gibberish. Paul speaks of, 'many kinds of languages in the world'... Scriptures which parallel what Paul is saying:

“For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. (Isaiah 66.18)
...Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues... (acts 2.10-11)
"Then he said to me, the waters which you saw, where the halt sits are people's multitudes, nations, and tongues. . (Rev 17.15)





 
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JeremiahsBulldog

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Speaking in tongues, in the Bible, has two variations. It can mean, speaking with the languages of:
1-men, and
2-angels.

The first variation means that the Apostles learned many human languages by the power of the Holy Spirit, so that they could spread the gospel more effectively. This gift mostly died out by the third century. There is a late manifestation of it, however, in the story of St Ephraim of Syria, who miraculously learned to speak Greek, so he could converse with St Basil the Great of Caesaria.

The second variety, speaking with the tongues of angels, refers to what the Church Fathers call "prayer of the heart". This is the interpretation, for example, of St Niketas Stethatos (c 1005-1090). This refers to constant prayer; a result of illumination, which is the second stage of spiritual progress.

There are three stages to the Christian spiritual journey. The first is purification, or repentance. For the EO, repentance isn't just doing a good deed, like going to church after a long absence. Individual good deeds are just the beginning of the process of turning away from our passions, so that we're no longer interested in our old vices. It is this whole process which is purification/ repentance. At first we struggle to avoid temptations, to read the Bible, go to Church, fast, and pray. We struggle to keep our minds away from sin and on God, by reciting prayers silently, in our minds, day and night whenever we can. When God sees that we are ready for a deeper change in our hearts (our hidden, deeper selves) He sends His
grace to purify our hearts. Now we have reached true repentance. Our old vices don't attract us anymore. Anyone who expects to go to Heaven, must have reached at least this stage at the moment of death. Of course, this whole process can happen quickly, even in a single "jolt", if God wills it. This happened to some martyrs, who went from sinner to saint in a moment.

The second stage is illumination. It is possible, when one has reached the first stage, to fall back into sin. We don't believe in "once saved, always saved." Some others maintain their connection with God. When God sees fit, He sends them grace which illumines, or enlightens, them. Enlightenment, for the Fathers, doesn't mean 18th century atheism. It literally means to be "lit up" from within. Whereas we once had to force our attention on God, now we feel prayer welling up from out hearts. It becomes part of our nature, like breathing.
This is true constant prayer, 24 hours a day, when working or resting, when awake or asleep. Yes, even when we dream at night. It is called "prayer of the heart" because it is often accompanied by deep feelings of compunction, which we feel in the "bottom of our heart", literally the bottom of our chest. Sometimes, people in this stage are so overwhelmed by feelings of contrition, that they express them outwardly. They may lift their eyes and hands to heaven, sigh, groan, shed tears, fall on their knees, even lie prostrate on the ground. Such outward expressions can be misinterpreted by onlookers as drunkenness or insanity. It is also called "the tongues of angels" because angels are in constant communion with God, and they obviously don't make physical sounds with physical mouths.

The third and final stage is theosis, or divinization. A person in thte second stage can fall back into the first, or back into sin, by his own will. Those few who continue in the spiritual path, are granted by God to be able to commune directly with Him. This is theosis.
Through this gift, they can see God. This is "theoria". But what exactly do they see? We must make a distinction here, between God's essence and His energies. We have an essence which includes our flesh and soul. It is not made manifest when we interact with the world. One can't figure out our DNA by shaking hands with us, for example. God also has an essence - what He is within Himself. Neither we, nor the angels, nor any other created thing will ever know God's essence. It is forever unknowable and incommunicable to us. We also have energies; the way we interact with the world. They include our outward appearance, our voice, and our actions. God too has energies. They are ways in which God interacts with creation. In the OT they are the "hand of God", and in the NT "grace". In the western (RC and Protestant) churches, it is taught that God is in essence, simple. Therefore His essence and energies are the same thing, and are/is completely apart from creation. We EO say that this is presumptious. It assumes something about God's essence, which in reality is unknowable. The result is that Western theologians interpret the "hand of God" and "grace" as created things. We disagree. After all, it is not the "hand of creation" but the hand of God, and the grace of God. Those in theosis see God's grace as a "light" that permeates creation. People who die in this stage are called "Saint". They include the OT Patriarchs, the Prophets, the Apostles, and the Church Fathers.

No ancient Orthodox interpretation of speaking in tongues, has anything to to with the babbling carried out by modern Charismatics and Pentecostals. This bizarre practice is more akin to those of some ancient heretics, like the Montanists.
 
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